You are exaggerating. I think he dislikes aspects of it and wishes to analyse why those aspects didn't work for him. Sometimes people can acknowledge a poor aspect of something without hateing it's guts, true story!The Goat Tsar said:
How Shadow of Mordor is a Poor Man's Batman: Arkham Game
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
No this game blows gameplay wise. There is no semblance of balance. You can turn your monitor off, press two buttons and win, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6AV9W2ZdmjU
It is in serious need of rebalancing. Nemesis is fun, everything else is pretty terrible. Keep writing about it. There are good ideas and potential but without this type of criticism I'm afraid we won't see improvement. You'd think this game flawless based off the buzz. Nothing is further from the truth, pointing out otherwise makes you bitter or a white knight apparently.
For those that played (and I have a significant amount of)...here are some suggests for hard mode.
Skill tree tweak:
Remove skills: getting hit twice does not break combo/jump stuns enemies
Add skills:
Wraith focus becomes level 2 or 3 tier unlock and is not included at the start of the game. This would increase stealth and verticle archery gameplay instead of giving you a slow motion machine gun in the first five minutes of the game, ranger level 1 skill to find herbs on map
Remove the three final unlocks. They are nothing short of disgusting.
Gameplay tweak
The number one imbalance is that brand/jump/execute are uninterruptible but dominate isn't. If dominate was not able to be interrupted you could walk up to any trash/captain/chief and they would be under your control instantly. This means the developers are at least aware that some moves, or one it seems, needed to be that thrawted by trash enemies. Extend this to all current combat moves.
Half amount of healing herbs spawning, increase basic enemy attack frequency, spamming invincible dodge jump breaks combo, one last chance are escape per spawn, breaking line of sight or fleeing from a random chief counts as a victory for them and they level up, double stealth detection range and speed, stealth indicators and combat indicators mandatory off
Nemesis tweak
Double the speed at which captains advance in rank, level 20 anybody, captains/Chiefs that kill you gain mandatory No Chance trait
It is in serious need of rebalancing. Nemesis is fun, everything else is pretty terrible. Keep writing about it. There are good ideas and potential but without this type of criticism I'm afraid we won't see improvement. You'd think this game flawless based off the buzz. Nothing is further from the truth, pointing out otherwise makes you bitter or a white knight apparently.
For those that played (and I have a significant amount of)...here are some suggests for hard mode.
Skill tree tweak:
Remove skills: getting hit twice does not break combo/jump stuns enemies
Add skills:
Wraith focus becomes level 2 or 3 tier unlock and is not included at the start of the game. This would increase stealth and verticle archery gameplay instead of giving you a slow motion machine gun in the first five minutes of the game, ranger level 1 skill to find herbs on map
Remove the three final unlocks. They are nothing short of disgusting.
Gameplay tweak
The number one imbalance is that brand/jump/execute are uninterruptible but dominate isn't. If dominate was not able to be interrupted you could walk up to any trash/captain/chief and they would be under your control instantly. This means the developers are at least aware that some moves, or one it seems, needed to be that thrawted by trash enemies. Extend this to all current combat moves.
Half amount of healing herbs spawning, increase basic enemy attack frequency, spamming invincible dodge jump breaks combo, one last chance are escape per spawn, breaking line of sight or fleeing from a random chief counts as a victory for them and they level up, double stealth detection range and speed, stealth indicators and combat indicators mandatory off
Nemesis tweak
Double the speed at which captains advance in rank, level 20 anybody, captains/Chiefs that kill you gain mandatory No Chance trait
Hey Shamus, good read. Well thought out and you do a good job of explaining what can be done right and not quite so right by various developers. The Nemesis bit looked really cool until Yahtzee explained how it was good until you gutted the Orcs by communicating them. The result was like the combat I fear. A good idea that somehow got shanked before it made it out the door.
Ah, The Escapist and its crowd of whiners. Somethings never change and some whiners will never grow up.
Ah, The Escapist and its crowd of whiners. Somethings never change and some whiners will never grow up.
:S
This article seems nit-picky for the sake of being so.
I think the vast majority of people DO NOT CARE that this game copies combat mechanics from another game. This has been happening in games for decades and there is nothing wrong with taking a working formula and doing your own thing with it. Most people are fine with this. There is nothing wrong with familiarity.
Anyone who is getting stuck on SoM copying Arkham should really take a step back and realize that it is actually YOUR problem. I am not sure what amount of cognitive dissonance or confirmation bias is floating around in your head, but it is preventing you from enjoying oranges instead of apples. You would probably like oranges if you peeled them instead of trying to eat them like apples...
I liken this mentality to people who absolute hate any other MOBA that isn't DOTA. They hate other MOBAs for copying DOTA's mechanics while at the same time berate them for not being exactly the same. It's insane.
This article seems nit-picky for the sake of being so.
I think the vast majority of people DO NOT CARE that this game copies combat mechanics from another game. This has been happening in games for decades and there is nothing wrong with taking a working formula and doing your own thing with it. Most people are fine with this. There is nothing wrong with familiarity.
Anyone who is getting stuck on SoM copying Arkham should really take a step back and realize that it is actually YOUR problem. I am not sure what amount of cognitive dissonance or confirmation bias is floating around in your head, but it is preventing you from enjoying oranges instead of apples. You would probably like oranges if you peeled them instead of trying to eat them like apples...
I liken this mentality to people who absolute hate any other MOBA that isn't DOTA. They hate other MOBAs for copying DOTA's mechanics while at the same time berate them for not being exactly the same. It's insane.
Shamus, why are you not talking about the Nemesis System? It is the most notable thing about the game by far, the part that makes people actually care about the game as much as they do.
Unless you're playing the old console version that cut the NS because the old consoles can process all the background shit.
Unless you're playing the old console version that cut the NS because the old consoles can process all the background shit.
So it's 100% like any of the Arkham games? I don't get where this "difficulty to master" them sentiment comes from with those games. They were horrendously simple. Fun. But not complex.Trizzo said:
My post was half a joke, as if he'd write a lengthy article about me if I made him angry. But I still feel like he's being way too mean. I feel like he's crossing the line from criticizing the game to just straight out insulting it.Mr Companion said:
I don't need the attitude.
Having played both systems pretty extensively now and having "mastered" both. I actually prefer SoM's combat, even though I appreciate the points your making in the article.
I think its more about the subject matter than the combat system for me. When I first tried to fight 5 or more orcs at a time, I found it pretty hard to work out the best tactics. But the flexibility of the SoM combat controls allows you some errors while your learning. You still don't want to make too many though because powering up captains by dying too much can be problematic later.
These days I can go into a stronghold and just freestyle it with however many orcs come a running and its awesome to play and almost as much fun to watch. When you have a good session, playing it back on PS4 can be quite entertaining and you can even self coach by watching your errors for next time.
So "poor mans Arkham", its a tough call, I think it stands alone well and I wouldn't describe it that way.
I think its more about the subject matter than the combat system for me. When I first tried to fight 5 or more orcs at a time, I found it pretty hard to work out the best tactics. But the flexibility of the SoM combat controls allows you some errors while your learning. You still don't want to make too many though because powering up captains by dying too much can be problematic later.
These days I can go into a stronghold and just freestyle it with however many orcs come a running and its awesome to play and almost as much fun to watch. When you have a good session, playing it back on PS4 can be quite entertaining and you can even self coach by watching your errors for next time.
So "poor mans Arkham", its a tough call, I think it stands alone well and I wouldn't describe it that way.
I am mostly amused with how there are two parallel series (pretty much) of articles, wherein, in a rather world-upside-down event, Yahtzee speaks of the game as pretty damn good, and Shamus rather vehemently presents reasons to take the opposite position.
One almost have to wonder if there is some deliberate coordination behind it all.
One almost have to wonder if there is some deliberate coordination behind it all.
The Arkham games are among my favorite of the last 5 years. Probably the last 10 years if I'm honest. But I like ME:SoM's different approach in a way. It's sloppier than Arkham in the combat, but combat is never your only means to deal with the threats that face you. And more than that, Batman SHOULD be the best at combat... he's Batman. Talion is a capable but less well rounded warrior and therefore it doesn't bother me enough that he's a big crap at times. Sure, it'd have been fine if they made the combat timing better or made the combat as fun as Arkham, but it doesn't break the game for me.
One of my favorite moments in ME:SoM happened when I was trying to fight off a big crowd of Uruk in one of the strongholds. I was on a bridge, and the game was sending waves of baddies to attack me. Normally this amount of Uruk would cause me to just flee. But seeing as I was on a bridge, my options were limited. So I just started grabbing the Uruks and chucking them off the bridge in turn. The bodies piled up, and I laughed each time one of them went flying. I imagined a poor sound engineer trying to weave in the Wilhelm scream for every third Uruk I sent flying. It was a great moment.
I also had a lot of fun hunting Captains and War Chiefs with a Graug. See below:
One of my favorite moments in ME:SoM happened when I was trying to fight off a big crowd of Uruk in one of the strongholds. I was on a bridge, and the game was sending waves of baddies to attack me. Normally this amount of Uruk would cause me to just flee. But seeing as I was on a bridge, my options were limited. So I just started grabbing the Uruks and chucking them off the bridge in turn. The bodies piled up, and I laughed each time one of them went flying. I imagined a poor sound engineer trying to weave in the Wilhelm scream for every third Uruk I sent flying. It was a great moment.
I also had a lot of fun hunting Captains and War Chiefs with a Graug. See below:
The moment I red 'the tone of the books' I rolled my eyes. This thing again ?
And I like that he pretty much answers his own question. Mordor's combat system is not about perfection. He is right about that, I used to redo entire sections of Arkham just to get out of a scuffle without getting hit once. But that's the thing, he is THE BATMAN.
Mordor's system is about owning the AI in the most brutal way possible, being empowered at the highest possible degree and inflicting terror because that's the theme of the game, using the weapon of the enemy against him. Which is exactly what everyone wanted to do with the one ring in the books. And that's exactly why Talion failed in his quest. Sound familiar ?
What's the point of writing an article if you answer your own questions ?
Also, this:
You can't have your cake and eat it too and it seems that most fanboys in general STILL cannot grasp this and this is what gets my coat when I see this type of discussion. Close-mindedness.
And I like that he pretty much answers his own question. Mordor's combat system is not about perfection. He is right about that, I used to redo entire sections of Arkham just to get out of a scuffle without getting hit once. But that's the thing, he is THE BATMAN.
Mordor's system is about owning the AI in the most brutal way possible, being empowered at the highest possible degree and inflicting terror because that's the theme of the game, using the weapon of the enemy against him. Which is exactly what everyone wanted to do with the one ring in the books. And that's exactly why Talion failed in his quest. Sound familiar ?
What's the point of writing an article if you answer your own questions ?
Also, this:
As a final word, I am willing to give up some elements of the mythology (i.e. wraiths are pretty much impossible to happen like this) if that means getting a solid game because if you think about it, the best licensed games have also taken several liberties with their brands. Arkham, Spiderman 2, Goldeneye, War and Fall Of Cybertron. I grew up with all of these things and I was willing to let a lot of things slide in order to enjoy because they are well thought games and good games in general.Charcharo said:
You can't have your cake and eat it too and it seems that most fanboys in general STILL cannot grasp this and this is what gets my coat when I see this type of discussion. Close-mindedness.
I don't get why people get so angry about Shamus talking about the game here.
Yeah, he did not like it. But he explained his reasons in now 2 very detailed and well reasoned columns.
This is not a rant. He analyzes the game and breaks it apart.
I would love to get more of this for more games.
I can feel that I don't really like a game. But more often than not I fail to put it into words.
Shamus is not telling you to dislike the game, he is telling people why HE disliked it and (at least for me) he really
made me see the points why I did not like this game very much.
The nemesis system was really a good idea and a concept that should be developed further.
But the rest of the game from the Assassins Creed/Arkham combination to the plain WRONG use of the Tolkien Mythos...
It is bad. And one Innovation can not help a game that borrows so immensely from other games. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but
Shadows borrows badly.
Please more of such game-theory breakdowns.
Yeah, he did not like it. But he explained his reasons in now 2 very detailed and well reasoned columns.
This is not a rant. He analyzes the game and breaks it apart.
I would love to get more of this for more games.
I can feel that I don't really like a game. But more often than not I fail to put it into words.
Shamus is not telling you to dislike the game, he is telling people why HE disliked it and (at least for me) he really
made me see the points why I did not like this game very much.
The nemesis system was really a good idea and a concept that should be developed further.
But the rest of the game from the Assassins Creed/Arkham combination to the plain WRONG use of the Tolkien Mythos...
It is bad. And one Innovation can not help a game that borrows so immensely from other games. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but
Shadows borrows badly.
Please more of such game-theory breakdowns.
While I agree that zooming in for finishers is a step down, your gripe about the nemesis system seems to only be focusing on an aspect of it. There's more to it than just the fact that random enemies can become captains if they kill you. In addition to killing you for promotions, they also try and kill each other. That's what I found really interesting, especially when you gain the ability to brainwash them, since you can help a lowly brainwashed captain in his struggle to become Warchief, or even wield the nemesis system as a weapon against a very tough warchief, by getting brainwashed captains promoted to be a warchief's bodyguard.The_Darkness said:
So, even if you are too skilled to be killed by an orc, the nemesis system will still have plenty to offer.
Some people enjoy the gameplay of flappy bird [/end of discussion that fun can be explained with logic]
I haven't played Mordor yet, but the combo meter in Arkham, while fun, was completely inessential. The games were quite simply, way too easy. Combos just made it even easier. Heck, even when I turned off the counter cues, it still didn't make it that much tougher. This is one of the main reasons I'm looking forward to playing Mordor, everyone seems to be saying that it's actually pretty tough.Kilo24 said:
Also, as others have pointed out, isn't one of the biggest draws of the game the Nemesis system? It's my understanding that it is that system that is what sets the game apart from others. At least, that's the impression I got from Yahtzee and Jim.
Being a mere dabbler in both of these fiction franchises, and having played both games, I have to disagree, Shadows of Mordor was a better game than any of the batman games, which felt clunky to me.
The Nemesis system is probably the biggest draw in the game, and is the biggest thing that separates it from other games. But it's not that alone that makes Shadows of Mordor interesting - it's that combined with the combat which is deep and challenging enough to reward players who plan out attacks and take advantage of the environment to exploit the orc weaknesses and circumvent the strengths. Neither the combat nor the Nemesis system would be half as impressive without the other.RedDeadFred said:
Combat gets pretty tough if you don't think ahead or use the environment/orc weaknesses wisely. If you do, it usually gets significantly easier (and it does rarely trivialize encounters, which doesn't happen often enough to be a bad thing). The stealth system is pretty lenient, so it's not hard to scout out the area beforehand and pick off orcs without rank one-by-one.
The combat does have moderate flaws, though. I will say that the combat gets easy enough to largely disregard the Nemesis system right around the end, that the bow eventually becomes incredibly effective at trivializing normal orcs, that an orc being vulnerable to stealth kills is a disproportionately large weakness, and that the majority of captains become immune to ranged weapons later on. But I wouldn't call any of these flaws severe, which makes it a much better combat system than most video games that I can think of.