How Star Wars: The Old Republic Handles Sex

[SykoSilver]

I am sick of the way this industry makes claims to being centered around an artistic medium but all it's concerned with is marketing and business.

Who do they think they are, wanting to make money off of a video game? Don't they realize that the whole point of creating a business is to make something "ground breaking" that causes you to lose three fourths of your audience because you made the lead character a homosexual male? I mean, gawd.

I admit I was being melodramatic, but I think there's still irony in how people argue that games are art or belong alongside film and literature but only approach it as "business." Business is all about risk-aversion and because of that, it's stagnant. In that kind of environment, games will go nowhere--certainly not anywhere close to film and literature, where things are more flexible. Even our ratings system is harsher.

If games remain as commercial as they are, they'll never be as respected as other great works of fiction that don't stick to the same generic formula. You have to take risks to make a masterpiece.

As for losing audience, where's our Brokeback Mountain? If a movie with homosexual protagonists can make bank, why can't a game?

 

[SykoSilver]

I cant believe that this is an issue.

seriously, if anybody here is actually a mature person, they should be asking why there is sex in the first place.

sex has no place outside pornography, or my very, very sexy bedroom, i hate hollywood, and tv, and these video games that feel the need to put sex in EVERYTHING to get an a free thumbs up with goons who use their peckers as a regular consultant of daily function. ive never seen a good "it was vital to the plot" argument either, you can IMPLY sex, if its THAT vital, but actually having it in there is just a stupid get out of jail free card for bad writers. (how akward would lord of the rings have been if instead of implying it, they just plain showed frodo and sam slappin meat?) which brings me to my next point:

They NEVER said gays don't exist in the Star Wars Universe. They said the labels for gay people don't exist.

During a press conference for Star Trek: TNG Someone once asked "Surely by the 24th Century they would have found a cure for male pattern baldness" Gene Roddenberry replied, "No, by the 24th Century no one will care"

although on the other hand if space is our Manifest destiny Gays have no place there. We need settlers and squatters to build lands, have kids and generally settle a place down. Even if a gay couple wanted to have kids I don't they will have room for an invitro clinic when settling a wild planet

Because gays cannot contribute anything to society if they can't have kids. =_= Gee thanks.

I don't care that BioWare isn't including orientation labels in their games. I get frustrated at labels too. What concerns me is that while this is OK, if they also intentionally do not include any male-male romances, then they have basically affirmed that such relationships are either unimportant, inferior, or even worse: offensive (and I believe they only included a lesbian relationship because their target audience find that titillating)

im only quoting that much, because im sure you were annoyed enough by the original post.

great job being the first butthurt guy to post on this thread, thats always an achievement.

for the love of whatever you love, STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THINGS THAT JUST ARE. i dont complain that rain is wet, you shouldnt complain that the colon doesnt make babies.

dont blame anybody that you cant help a fictional space station populate
which brings me to the last quote:

So reproduction will be mandatory in these space colonies?

oh yea....oh, freaking yea.
shame we wont live to see such awesome "sacrifices" for mankind *theres a futurama reference in here, but im not gonna look the quote up*

Good job misinterpreting my entire post.

I was't complaining about not being able to make babies.
I also wasn't blaming anyone for that.
I don't even WANT anything growing in my colon, thank ye.

My point was that gay people contribute to society in ways other than reproduction in the same ways straight people do: there are gay doctors, humanitarians, fire fighters, and even soldiers (though they have to keep on the down-low in the U.S. right now). And for all the crappy biological parents out there, there are a TON of fantastic gay parents who would do a wonderful job raising kids to be functional parts of society in the next generation.

And while you have some unjustified immature fear of sex, not all of us do. There's nothing wrong with sex--it's not only natural, but beautiful, AND it plays a huge impact in our lives. The reason sex is controversial is because it is made out to be. There's really nothing to be ashamed of, and nothing to hide. If you insist on "implying" sex, then you insist on censoring it. How do you justify that?

 

[Ajna]

I am sick of the way this industry makes claims to being centered around an artistic medium but all it's concerned with is marketing and business.

Who do they think they are, wanting to make money off of a video game? Don't they realize that the whole point of creating a business is to make something "ground breaking" that causes you to lose three fourths of your audience because you made the lead character a homosexual male? I mean, gawd.

I admit I was being melodramatic, but I think there's still irony in how people argue that games are art or belong alongside film and literature but only approach it as "business." Business is all about risk-aversion and because of that, it's stagnant. In that kind of environment, games will go nowhere--certainly not anywhere close to film and literature, where things are more flexible. Even our ratings system is harsher.

If games remain as commercial as they are, they'll never be as respected as other great works of fiction that don't stick to the same generic formula. You have to take risks to make a masterpiece.

As for losing audience, where's our Brokeback Mountain? If a movie with homosexual protagonists can make bank, why can't a game?

Brokeback Mountain is ridiculed by everyone on the planet. Even people (like me) who haven't seen it.

And you're going pretty damn far to claim that "Movies" are an artistic medium. Every once in a while, one is groundbreaking, but that's exactly as often as is with games. Most movies want money. Same with games.

Books are more artistic than either, but some are still made just for money. Who do you think Tom Clancy is? Or Stephanie Meyers?

Fact is, Harry Potter probably only went to seven books because after the first three, JK Rowling realized there was money in it. The Alphabet of Manliness and "Hey Look at My Striped Shirt!" (Both very good books) at least are upfront about it (I believe the foreword to the latter actually says something to the extent of "Feel free to buy 20 and burn them all. Long as you pay, we don't care.").

 

[SykoSilver]

Because gays cannot contribute anything to society if they can't have kids. =_= Gee thanks.

Some would say properly raising a child is the greatest thing you can contribute to society. Also it would depend on the size of a colony a million strong can have all the non-breeders it wants. However a colony that big would not grow that big over night. I doubt settler ships would carry a million people. They would need room for people to eat/sleep/shower. Space for lots of food, clean water, fuel. It probably wouldn't have very fast engines either. So they would have to carry lots of supplies to make it to their destination. Its not long before this becomes a logistical nightmare. Dropping a few hundred people onto a habitable planet makes more sense. People would be excepted to have 3 or more children and grow the community. Your not going to carry a grove of avocados to Dantooine you are going to carry the seeds and make your own grove. Same applies to humans.
This assumes we want to Conquer the Galaxy a la Manifest Destiny. If you just want to run around exploring the place and not disturbing anything, you can be like Star Trek and stuff those spaceships with all the gays you want, you Prime Directive following robot.

I don't care that BioWare isn't including orientation labels in their games. I get frustrated at labels too. What concerns me is that while this is OK, if they also intentionally do not include any male-male romances, then they have basically affirmed that such relationships are either unimportant, inferior, or even worse: offensive (and I believe they only included a lesbian relationship because their target audience find that titillating).

For Mass Effect BioWare said they didn't include gay relations because they had the least appeal and because they did not feel they could portray them realistically. I think that if BioWare is going to make any claims to approaching sex artistically and being a great storyteller, then they need quit making excuses and step up to the challenge.

It is EXTREMELY easy to plop in a single line of dialog hinting at male-male relations--or attraction, at least! There is no excuse.

I do not want to dictate how BioWare can be creative but if they are going to decide gay content on the basis of market appeal and essentially perpetuate the idea that people like me are second-class, then I'm going to question their ethics.

I am sick of the way this industry makes claims to being centered around an artistic medium but all it's concerned with is marketing and business.

Having played WoW and Guildwars for years I don't see any room for sexual relationships for any gender preferance. I have meaningful connections to the characters I leveled. and I have somewhat meaningful relationships with my Guildmates. but NPCs are just cannon folder in these games meant to die on my sword or shower me with praise and gold. They have all the depth of Paris Hilton. I cannot foresee "quest objectives: Sex with Circumcised 5/10, Sex with Uncircumcised 1/3" If you want to experience a gay relation within an MMO you are going to have to make your own


WOOKIE COOKIES!

Gay people can properly raise a child, they just can't create one. Even if gay people don't make it into space, they'll pop up there anyway, because some of the people born will turn out to be gay. So how can there be no gay in space? Also, if there was a very important person with some very valuable skills, I bet they'd get into space if they wanted to. And with emerging biotech, gay people don't need to have reproductive sex when their spermies and some technology can do it.

Anyway, WoW and Guildwars aren't exactly setting the standard for storytelling. It's a problem with MMOGs (or perhaps not, if you prefer it that way).

 

[SykoSilver]

I am sick of the way this industry makes claims to being centered around an artistic medium but all it's concerned with is marketing and business.

Who do they think they are, wanting to make money off of a video game? Don't they realize that the whole point of creating a business is to make something "ground breaking" that causes you to lose three fourths of your audience because you made the lead character a homosexual male? I mean, gawd.

I admit I was being melodramatic, but I think there's still irony in how people argue that games are art or belong alongside film and literature but only approach it as "business." Business is all about risk-aversion and because of that, it's stagnant. In that kind of environment, games will go nowhere--certainly not anywhere close to film and literature, where things are more flexible. Even our ratings system is harsher.

If games remain as commercial as they are, they'll never be as respected as other great works of fiction that don't stick to the same generic formula. You have to take risks to make a masterpiece.

As for losing audience, where's our Brokeback Mountain? If a movie with homosexual protagonists can make bank, why can't a game?

Brokeback Mountain is ridiculed by everyone on the planet. Even people (like me) who haven't seen it.

And you're going pretty damn far to claim that "Movies" are an artistic medium. Every once in a while, one is groundbreaking, but that's exactly as often as is with games. Most movies want money. Same with games.

Books are more artistic than either, but some are still made just for money. Who do you think Tom Clancy is? Or Stephanie Meyers?

Fact is, Harry Potter probably only went to seven books because after the first three, JK Rowling realized there was money in it. The Alphabet of Manliness and "Hey Look at My Striped Shirt!" (Both very good books) at least are upfront about it (I believe the foreword to the latter actually says something to the extent of "Feel free to buy 20 and burn them all. Long as you pay, we don't care.").

If you haven't seen Brokeback Mountain then how can you have any confidence in your opinion of it? It was the most honored film of 2005. It won 4 Golden Globes and some other very prestigious awards. I think it actually won more Best Picture and Director awards than Schindler's List and Titanic combined. It has an 87% freshness rating on Rotten Tomatoes. It cost $14mil to produce, $5mil to market, and made over $170mil. If that doesn't work, I don't know what does. Perhaps it's because there's a real market for masterpieces.

I also said film, which is broader than "movies" in a way.

But I'm not arguing that games can't be made to make money. I'm arguing that virtually all AAA games are risk-averting commercial copycats who wouldn't approach REAL controversy with a 10-foot pole. I will disagree that groundbreaking games are released as often as groundbreaking films are, and I will also make a point that our groundbreaking games are not nearly as groundbreaking. Games like Planescape Torment, Shadow of the Colossus, Psychonauts, and Fahrenheit are great games and very unique and I love what I've seen and played of them, but I wouldn't feel comfortable calling them masterpieces.

 

[psijac]

Having played WoW and Guildwars for years I don't see any room for sexual relationships for any gender preferance. I have meaningful connections to the characters I leveled. and I have somewhat meaningful relationships with my Guildmates. but NPCs are just cannon folder in these games meant to die on my sword or shower me with praise and gold. They have all the depth of Paris Hilton. I cannot foresee "quest objectives: Sex with Circumcised 5/10, Sex with Uncircumcised 1/3" If you want to experience a gay relation within an MMO you are going to have to make your own


WOOKIE COOKIES!

Gay people can properly raise a child, they just can't create one. Even if gay people don't make it into space, they'll pop up there anyway, because some of the people born will turn out to be gay. So how can there be no gay in space? Also, if there was a very important person with some very valuable skills, I bet they'd get into space if they wanted to. And with emerging biotech, gay people don't need to have reproductive sex when their spermies and some technology can do it.

Anyway, WoW and Guildwars aren't exactly setting the standard for storytelling. It's a problem with MMOGs (or perhaps not, if you prefer it that way).

I'm not saying gay people can't be good parents. I'm also not saying gay people should be banned from space. What I am saying is that from an economical stand point it makes no sense to send gay people into space.

Before you can argue that someone is so exceptional that an exception must be made, you have to decide what kind of future we are looking at. There are currently 2 visions of space travel.

First off, Star Trek. In the Star Trek vision, every earthling is enlighten, violence is shunned and they travel space not to colonize to own it but to better understand it. This is a very gay friendly vision. There is a huge need for specially trained umm... specialist of every field. Technology is so advance it can accommodate any minority, blind, sulfur breathers, even aquatic, non corporal (though no non corporal beings have joined Starfleet they would be welcome), even a child was able to earn a commission. Earth eliminated currency and replicators have eliminated the concept of supply and demand. No technology is too expensive when you can manipulate matter and energy. Lastly you can always go to the holodeck to talk to a simulation of Sigmund Freud about your father issues.

A more likely Space will be more like Star War or Firefly. The government will dump desperate, uneducated people on planets which are barely habitable, These people will live a life like what John Steinbeck would write about. They will do what every they can to survive but they will never have a chance to rise above it. Luke Skywalker was a simple farmer. And he was considering joining the military to get away from a life of constant toiling. There won't be a need for any kind of specialty beside a forklift or backhoe operator.

With current technology it cost America $15,000 to move a liter of water the moon or in terms our overseas friends can understand, about 1 euros. How much would it cost to send a full In vitro clinic? Sure some things can be used in other applications. I centrifuge its all kinds of useful. but once to use a turkey baster for reproduction no one is going to want to touch it ever again.

I admit from a story stand point GW and WoW don't care the slightest bit about you and want you to consider buying the latest expansion pack :The Secrets or GrindMoore. I loved Warcraft 2, 3 & starcraft 1. I felt drawn in and actually cared for the Hero units that commanded, (I long to hear obama give the epic speech at the end of the terran campaign). This is sorely missing form all current MMOs in which every NPC has not more than 3 ways to say hello or goodbye and Bosses get to have a script you could fit on a fortune cookie. They say SWToR will have be fully voice which is nice.

If you are arguing that your minority (gays) should be represented in every aspect of our media you are fighting a losing battle. Once a developer caves in politically it only downhill from there. I can imagine demands for wheelchair accessible spaceships, every sign in game will also have to be written in braile. Latina women with breast cancer will demand a story arc. Its going to be a mess.

In short if you want to non-hetero sex Star Trek online is also in development. And even StarGate might be more your thing.