How the heck is Katniss a Mary Sue?

[Drathnoxis]

It has just come to my attention that some people believe Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games is a Mary Sue. This is just absurd. She gets seriously messed up in those books. She spends like half a day strung out on hallucinogenic torture poison. She's not even portrayed as a good person. The book makes it clear that she's impetuous, aggressive, and antisocial, and she would never had made it if Peeta hadn't been there to help her get through interviews and appear FAR more likeable than she actually was.

She's a deeply flawed character and goes through major, personal hardship throughout the series. I don't understand how anybody could look at that and think she's a sue.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Sixteen year old wunderkind, best at everything she does, discretely pretty, one makeover from being a bombshell, love triangle with two hunks, is the chosen one, saves the world, etc. And "impetuous, aggressive and antisocial" is just humble brag for badass. Your flaw can't be that you're too awesome.

Nothing against her, that's just the way YA heroes and heroines are written - perfect in every way yet treated as flawed, usually by adults, so the kids reading the books will relate to the underdog.

 

[Thaluikhain]

She's a female character, she's not rubbish at everything. In of itself that makes her a Mary Sue. She then goes and becomes the protagonist.

That's what a Mary Sue is...nowdays. A few years back the requirements were a lot tighter, but then you had to work hard to be a troll in the old days, the words got overused and watered down to be mostly meaningless in most people's mouths.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

She's a female character, she's not rubbish at everything. In of itself that makes her a Mary Sue. She then goes and becomes the protagonist.

That's what a Mary Sue is...nowadays. A few years back the requirements were a lot tighter, but then you had to work hard to be a troll in the old days, the words got overused and watered down to be mostly meaningless in most people's mouths.

Eh, I think what you mean is not rubbish at anything. Like if Katniss had to ice skate down a volcano, while conducting an orchestra, shooting and killing a water bear with a potato gun all while upside down and backwards and already having failed at everything, she's still succeed.
Mary Sue doesn't mean 'she's a woman and a character and doesn't shit herself' Mary Sue means through convenient character traits, the girl is uniquely qualified to succeed at every challenge given to her, regardless of difficulty, with the purpose of simply showing how great she is.

Like if the Hunger Games were a lego building contest and Born to Run sing-along, and Katniss just happened to be a huge Lego and Bruce Springsteen fan, and effortlessly won the contest, it's a little hard to argue 'well she's just a woman and people are uncomfortable with that'.

Think of it this way: was the character written to be a part of the story, or win the story.
Was it A. Katniss is good at archery. B. Katniss can whistle. C. Hunger Games is a life/death struggle where archery and whistling are useful
Or
A. Hunger Games need archery and whistling to win, B. Katniss knows archery, C. Katniss knows whistling.
Do you design the struggle around to the character, or the character to meet the struggle. And yes they are different.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Depends, is Hunger Games a thing nerds like?

If yes, totally, if no, not really.

 

[Kyrian007]

I'm not surprised someone is crying "mary sue." All it takes is a female that is good at something, and uses that skill to win/save the day... equals "mary sue." Used to be called "being the protagonist" but now if a writer dares make protagonist a female... the accusation from idiots is "mary sue."

 

[Hawki]

I can sort of understand why people think Katniss is an MS, but I strongly disagree that she is.

Katniss is good at one thing - archery. Like, really good. How did she become good? Because she spent a lot of time hunting outside District 12 and honing her skills. Being really good at something doesn't make someone a Stu/Sue in of itself.

So, what are her flaws? Well, she's socially awkward, introverted, blunt, and has difficulty connecting with people. That's often to her detriment, such as her interactions with Gale and Peeta, and the realization by District 13's propos that she can't act for shit. And speaking of District 13, while Katniss does play a role in the rebellion against the capital, she's very much a cog in the war effort rather than the be all and end all of the effort.

So, no, I don't think Katniss is a Sue.

 

[PsychedelicDiamond]

That's an accusation that gets levelled at practically every single unambigously heroic character nowadays. Every single female one, anyway, wonder why that is. Which is pretty dumb, there are some stories that benefit from having a triumphant hero with clear morals. I like antiheros as much as the next guy, not gonna talk shit about Tony Soprano here but more and more media is implying that there are no good people and if there are, they deserve to be pitied rather than admired.

And I don't agree with that. At the end of the day it's healthier to have some stories about decent people facing adversity and managing to change the world for the better than to get hung up on the whole "The world is shit, people are shit, you are shit, tune in next time for some more profound philosophical insights" shtick that way too many stories are riding to death these days. There's a place in fiction for the Harry Potters, Luke Skywalkers, Frodo Baggins' and Katniss Everdeens, just like there's one for the Tony Sopranos, Tony Montanas, Walter Whites and fucking Rick Sanchez'.

 

[gigastar]

I dont think shes necessarily a Mary Sue.

However i do think shes a poorly realized character, and it might have been more interesting if what happened to her at the end of the third book happened sooner.

 

[jademunky]

While the Hunger games are bad films and even worse books and there is a lot of criticism that can be leveled at them, no she's not. She's just an action film protagonist, she's kinda good at archery, knows some stuff about survival and camping, that's it.

In fact, one thing I kinda liked about the series and think a better writer would've expanded on this more is that the characters in-universe seem to look up to her as this even though it's clear to the reader that she will just disappoint them over and over.

 

[09philj]

"impetuous, aggressive and antisocial" is just humble brag for badass. Your flaw can't be that you're too awesome.

She starts out as somewhat aloof, by the end she's a mentally scarred borderline sociopathic nutcase who's spent three books being manipulated, exploited, or assaulted by everyone around her. She doesn't even get a happy ending, just a facsimile of cosy family life with someone she doesn't really love.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Presumably because most people don't truly understand what a Mary Sue is so they apply the classification to any female character who seems remotely skilled, confident and able to get shit done.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Because the author is a woman and the main protaginist is a woman?

 

[CaitSeith]

Sixteen year old wunderkind, best at everything she does

Except at acting, and in keeping her allies alive. Seriously, like half of her close allies end up death by the end of the third book.

is the chosen one

No, she isn't. She wasn't prophesied, born special or raised to win the Hunger Games, to lead a revolution or to save the world.

 

[the December King]

I couldn't possibly say as to whether she is a Mary Sue, as I haven't read the stories. But it seems to me that the tell would be if the world exists only in adoration of the protagonist.

Or I think so...

Is that the definition of Mary Sue?

She could be just an annoyingly over-capable and/or 'badass' protagonist.

 

[EvilRoy]

I dunno if I think she is a mary sue but there's definitely some problems there. I've only watched the first film but I swear that at no point was she ever required to make a decision. Everything always seemed to be done for her or work out in her favour with basically no input by her. The very last bit of the movie where she might have gotten the chance to make a decision to die or to kill her BF and the choice gets stolen before there could even be a possibility for her to have real agency.

I dont think mary sue is the right term for that but there is def something wrong there.

 

[JoJo]

I dunno if I think she is a mary sue but there's definitely some problems there. I've only watched the first film but I swear that at no point was she ever required to make a decision. Everything always seemed to be done for her or work out in her favour with basically no input by her. The very last bit of the movie where she might have gotten the chance to make a decision to die or to kill her BF and the choice gets stolen before there could even be a possibility for her to have real agency.

I dont think mary sue is the right term for that but there is def something wrong there.

I don't know if it really applies to Katniss, but the sort of character you're describing there is sometimes called a 'hood ornament.' As in, they look like a pretty decent character on their own, but when you place them in the context of the plot, they're being driven along by external factors rather than exercising their own agency.

 

[EvilRoy]

I dunno if I think she is a mary sue but there's definitely some problems there. I've only watched the first film but I swear that at no point was she ever required to make a decision. Everything always seemed to be done for her or work out in her favour with basically no input by her. The very last bit of the movie where she might have gotten the chance to make a decision to die or to kill her BF and the choice gets stolen before there could even be a possibility for her to have real agency.

I dont think mary sue is the right term for that but there is def something wrong there.

I don't know if it really applies to Katniss, but the sort of character you're describing there is sometimes called a 'hood ornament.' As in, they look like a pretty decent character on their own, but when you place them in the context of the plot, they're being driven along by external factors rather than exercising their own agency.

Ok, I think thats basically what I felt i saw.

Like, this is a movie about kids murdering each other to save their home, and we get told that this main character is good at killing and she wants to kill and she gonna kill to save her village. And then she never kills anybody. People just kind of die on their own. There was one part where she tries to kill a dbag but for some reason the story basically takes the ball away from her, beats up the guy for her, then lets her finish him off. After he asks her to. Like what? If you were writing this story as an all knowing God of that world and you hopped in to talk to katniss after this part in the story how do you think she would react? I think she would flip you off.

I just felt like we kept getting told how katnis was this crazy psycho badass only to watch the movie deliberately avoid ever letting her be one.

 

[Terminal Blue]

I couldn't possibly say as to whether she is a Mary Sue, as I haven't read the stories. But it seems to me that the tell would be if the world exists only in adoration of the protagonist.

Not necessarily, the world can be absurdly and unnecessarily cruel or persecutor of the protagonist, but only in a way which makes them seem sympathetic and right and affirms that they are, indeed, the centre of the narrative universe. The point is that, whether they are in adoration or irrational scorn and contempt, everyone is singularly obsessed with the protagonist.

This is kind of an old trick in children's literature, though, because children (and young adults) tend to prefer morally simple narratives. Having everyone be mean to the protagonist is just an easy way to make you root for them and frame them as an innocent in a cruel world. Bonus points if the cruel world and its dynamics are reminiscent of American high school.

Honestly, I think that was always my problem with the series and with several of its rip-offs (particularly the absolutely hilarious Thinning). It has a premise which is incredibly dark, and yet it uses it as a metaphor for high school being mean and cliquey. That dissonance often shows.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Like, this is a movie about kids murdering each other to save their home, and we get told that this main character is good at killing and she wants to kill and she gonna kill to save her village.

...

I just felt like we kept getting told how katnis was this crazy psycho badass only to watch the movie deliberately avoid ever letting her be one.

Er...no? She didn't enter the games to save her village or overthrow the government or cause she likes killing people, she volunteered because otherwise her little sister would be conscripted.

She wasn't good at killing people, beyond having hunted animals for food.

At least in the first book/film.