How The Old Republic Didn't Change MMOs

[Korten12]

no holy trinity.

I am sick and fucking tired of everyone saying that. First of all, all they did was rotate the holy trinity 120 degrees and give everyone the abilities. It's still fucking there. And from everything I've seen, the best in combat setups, especially for difficult combat, will require bars with abilities from the same leg of GW2's trinity. Which then are switched depending on the enemy in question during combat phases.

Note, I'll still probably get the game, but to say it "did away with" the trinity is fucking absurd.

Um... There is no dedicated Tank class, and no dedicated healer class. Every class can do their part. And no, it isn't the best setup since monster aggro's don't go after the person with the most health. Thus making the whole holy trinity set up if tried, completely pointless.

In PVP in most games, if you have no healer, you would lose without a doubt. In GW2, they even said that in one match, a Necromancer held themselves up against four players by them self while they waited for their team to respawn. If it had a holy trinity, that necromancer would have wiped in seconds.

Yes there is a healing spell, but it's not substantial enough to just sit there and watch your parties health go up and down while you heal them.

In GW2 there is Damage, Control and Support, but none of them fit the role of the holy trinity, and the fact that it doesn't have DPS, Tank, and Heal makes it radically different. If a Elementalist keeps using their water spell to heal, the team will wipe, if they don't take an active role, do damage, and support (shields and buffs) then the team will die. Healing will help, but it's not the holy savoir like it is in games like WoW.

My brother played WoW for years and he played a Druid which while not a priest had lots of healing abilities and he even said if they took away many of the healing spells, raids would no longer be able to function. If there was no class to just take all the damage, it would fall apart, and same for DPS.

But in GW2, you could go into a dungeon with a whole party of Mages and still do fine, great in fact depending on the players. If the game followed by the main rules of the holy trinity, then this would be sentencing their death.

And sure, Mages still do have less health, but they aren't just there to stand afar and never get up close. In GW2 they can, they battle up close, they aren't afraid to get hit once and awhile. Because there is no Tank that is just going to pull aggro or provoke the enemy. The enemies don't care, they will attack whom ever they like and no skill is going to suddenly make you there favorite target. Sure a Guardian could do a shield ability, but more then that class has that, but a shield ability isn't changing their aggro, just protecting the player.

Thus Tank is completely destroyed as a possible role.

Then since a player can't not heal a whole party and live by only doing that, the role of Heal, is destroyed.

The only thing that is remotely the same is DPS to Damage since, well it's doing damage. But what makes it different is that there is no class(s) dedicated to this role, because everyone can be DPS. Thus in a sense, no one is DPS.

Support, Damage, and Control while it may sound similar, it works in a much different way.

 

[beniki]

Hey, everyone. I've been enjoying the conversation, and thanks to everybody for commenting on the column this week!

I see a lot of people talking about The Old Republic being a "WoW clone," and I wonder whether that's a fair thing to say. Hear me out.

The basic quest and combat mechanics of massively multiplayer online role playing games were established by EverQuest back in 1999. World of Warcraft really didn't innovate on those mechanics. WoW polished them. From that perspective WoW was an EverQuest clone, but we don't say that because WoW was clearly, ridiculously more popular than EQ ever was.

I don't know what a different kind of MMO would look like in terms of combat mechanics. DC Universe Online's mechanics are more like an action game than a traditional MMO, so maybe that's a step in the right direction. No one's gotten the first person, reflex-based combat system to work properly in an MMO, though Firefall is making a leap in that direction. Buggered if I know what a better quest system would look like, though. Dynamic quest generation would seem to be a goal, but then there's the question of characters and voice performances.

Until such time as these questions get answered, calling MMO games "clones" of whoever came first or happens to be on top at the moment just seems silly. Just call them MMOs. The Old Republic is a traditional MMO, not a clone of anything. My point this week was that by making one, significant change to what "traditional" means in this case, it casts all the other "traditions" in a different light.

That's not to say those traditions are bad, or even to suggest there are immediate, easy ways to break them, but I think it's interesting to see them more clearly as a result of what TOR did!

To be honest, The Old Republic being similar to WoW is a more serious problem than for most other games. Star Wars already has a great deal of back story, and a massive library of games to take their classes and abilities from. That's what people were expecting. Three force user classes, and three 'normal' classes lifted straight from KoTOR, along with the moral ambiguity that KoTOR 2 hinted at.

Instead, the classes have been condensed down into very clear WoW analogues. I haven't played the game yet, but just looking at the skills list, they almost seem copy pasted from other games. This is probably why you find the actual game play dull... you've played it before, just with a different skin.

I don't mean that developers should try to re-invent the wheel, but for the sake of voice acting and cut scenes, the rest of the game has suffered. It's the same problem that Warhammer Age of Reckoning has. No other game quite had the PvP potential of that game, but it was let down by it's core game play being dull, and very much the same as other games. Actually playing the game is the same experience as all those years you spent on WoW. And you already stopped playing WoW years ago.

Not only that, but lazy class design kind of makes me yawn. Yes, I know that a Sith and a Jedi are similar, but there's nothing in their core mechanic to make them different beyond the name of the mechanic. I don't know why they bothered splitting the classes like that at all. Surely it would have been better from a story line perspective to have a common start point, and then a choice to be Sith or Republic later on in the game? Isn't that what KoTOR 2 was about? The choice, and the moral ambiguity between the two organisations?

You could call it traditional, but you could also call it out of date, especially compared to the innovations of upcoming games. To me? Well... to be honest, I lost interest when the classes came out. Good ideas ruined by forcing the character types into a game play mould rather than building a game to suit the characters.

That's what The Old Republic is. A good idea, let down by trying to fit mechanics that don't really suit it's character.

 

[Centrophy]

The traditional MMO combat system of pushing number keys or function buttons to activate abilities, coupled in some instances with taking advantageous positions like getting behind an enemy for a backstab or keeping one's distance to avoid being targeted, is something I've never enjoyed but learned to deal with in order to play MMOs.

Hmm, sounds pretty typical for Bioware. DA:O pretty much uses the MMO format exclusively - and was an awful, awful game (IMO).

Yay for finding someone else who thought DA:O was not very good!

OT: As for the MMO thing, the fact that so many games follow the EQ/WoW combat system is enough of a turn off to me. I'm sorry, but I just don't see the appeal of hitting 1-1-1-1-1-2-3-4-1-1-1-1-2-3-4 and occasionally 9. If you're going to do that same mindless thing over and over then you might as well be botting.

Seriously, the typical MMO player is nothing more than a fleshy bot.

And for the people talking about GW2, I'm also sorry, but I saw the combat demos and it looks like the combat is exactly the same. So what, now you have a don't stand there, stand here thing... wait WoW had that... dodge roll, same thing as an escape like Blink. Your spells combine with other players? How is that so very different from a 'lock casting a weakness to fire debuff and and having another player cast fire or better yet in FF11 using the group limit thing. What I'm saying is in terms of combat mechanics all of these games are the same thing with very minor tweaks and gimmicks between them.

Hopefully the lack of a subscription, and a dynamic well constructed world and quests will hold some be enough to stave off the repetitiveness of combat.

 

[demotion1]

I love KOTOR and although seeing a lot of Vette's does look silly, i really got over it quickly. Every game has things i do not like they are not going to stop me from having fun. SWTOR is great fun so far i just cannot stop playing.

 

[Supernova2000]

The animations in SWTOR are some of the best in the genre, having first hand experience by having played the fucking game. Try watching a let's play by someone who doesn't have a completely shitty computer. If you can't see how well animated melee combat is, you seriously need to have your eyes checked.

Let me rephrase then: well synchronised animations; yes, they're quite good but they still don't synch up properly, one combatant blocks low while the opponent slashes high and it still counts as a parry? Furthermore, if you look half-way down his channel page, to the left, you'll see that Snapwave [http://www.youtube.com/user/Snapwave] has a computer that's anything but shitty but even if it were, how on Earth would system lag cause that kind of problem?

 

[Negatempest]

To be honest. I have no idea why so many people expected Swotor to be some "second coming" It's an MMO. Which means that there are going to be so many actions that do not synchronize because there are so many different actions that can be made any second that a super computer from 100 years from now may make it possible.
Let me throw WoW out of the area and focus on how bad synchronization exists in single player games today. Some of the best fighting games of today have a block that can stop any upper or lower based attack regardless of the position of said block or even strike. I'm sorry but a right handed block to stop a right kick/punch is extremely difficult to do and the blockee should be using their left hand/leg to block right hand/leg attacks. (Not to mention that "blocks" don't really exist in a fight because slight mitigation is the best you can do.) God of War used a single stance to block the majority of attacks in the game unless it was an AoE.

I can go forever on this but let me just say that synchronization from an MMO should of been far from anyone's mind since in a fighting game or even most action games a slight punch at the end would cause some over dramatized fall.

 

[Supernova2000]

That's a known issue and it's being worked on by Bioware. As it stands right now, most of the animations sync up properly but some special abilities break the sync, such as the Jedi Knight's master strike ability.

second, I don't care how good this guys computer is, he still had framedrops like no tomorrow.

True, and here I thought that the game wouldn't be that hard on the system, given the art style it went for. That doesn't bode well for me, were I to play it; I have 12GB RAM, double Snapwave's but a somewhat inferior graphics card.

It just seems odd to me that they would be properly synced in the class ability preview videos (like the ones of the Jedi Knight deflecting all those shots as opposed to unflinchingly taking them all in the face, Tank though he is) but not in-game but then again, those vids were made locally, at Bioware HQ, so it must be a lag issue, which I imagine could screw up even Arkham Asylums' flawless choreography.

 

[beniki]

-snip of comprehensive skill breakdown-

The animations may be different, but the way they play, right down to the tech trees is the same, with only name changes. You could argue that that makes sense, given their similarities, but if that's the case, why make it into two classes? I don't see the need to have a 'non-evil' force choke. Let the Jedis use Force Choke too. Keep the Force Stasis, and let the Sith use that as well. Make them slightly different, to make Force Choke more 'evil' through damage over time or something and give the players a choice. Give them a subtle way to play a good Sith, or a darker, Kyle Katarn style Jedi.

And to me, it seems a little strange that a passionate Sith will play the same way as a serene Jedi. Character should come from mechanics in a game, not just from animations. Warhammer had this problem too. A graceful elf sword master had the same mechanics as a dirty-fighting, hulking black orc.

I'd argue that the skills are not different enough from WoW and other games... but that's just personal preference. Yes they are different, but as they are now, it's like a student has copied something off the internet, changed a few words and submitted it as homework. I'm not saying that's bad, on the contrary, familiarity means it's easier for players to pick up and play. But for the longer term player, it's not really going to excite them.

To be honest, I think switching sides would make faction balance easier to manage. Just give incentives to join the struggling side! But that's not what I meant. I meant start with a common, neutral faction, or no faction at all, and let the player decide through the course of the story line which side they want to join. That's been a part of Star Wars games for so long, I can't believe they passed up that chance for the MMO.

 

[beniki]

-snip of comprehensive skill breakdown-

The animations may be different, but the way they play, right down to the tech trees is the same, with only name changes. You could argue that that makes sense, given their similarities, but if that's the case, why make it into two classes? I don't see the need to have a 'non-evil' force choke. Let the Jedis use Force Choke too. Keep the Force Stasis, and let the Sith use that as well. Make them slightly different, to make Force Choke more 'evil' through damage over time or something and give the players a choice. Give them a subtle way to play a good Sith, or a darker, Kyle Katarn style Jedi.

And to me, it seems a little strange that a passionate Sith will play the same way as a serene Jedi. Character should come from mechanics in a game, not just from animations. Warhammer had this problem too. A graceful elf sword master had the same mechanics as a dirty-fighting, hulking black orc.

I'd argue that the skills are not different enough from WoW and other games... but that's just personal preference. Yes they are different, but as they are now, it's like a student has copied something off the internet, changed a few words and submitted it as homework. I'm not saying that's bad, on the contrary, familiarity means it's easier for players to pick up and play. But for the longer term player, it's not really going to excite them.

To be honest, I think switching sides would make faction balance easier to manage. Just give incentives to join the struggling side! But that's not what I meant. I meant start with a common, neutral faction, or no faction at all, and let the player decide through the course of the story line which side they want to join. That's been a part of Star Wars games for so long, I can't believe they passed up that chance for the MMO.

It's broken up that way because the stories for each class are different. Bioware set out from the begining to tell a story for each class, or, as they put it a trilogy for each class. Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights might share mechanics, but their stories are 100% different. I think there are several problems with giving them both abilities, 1. it would cause there to be an insane number of abilities in the game for each class, which already has a large number of them to begin with. 2. each class having different animations is kind of really neat, not only does it help visually identify the class in combat, but it helps give the player a sense that their class is unique. It feels different when you play each class, not because the stories are different, but because the everything down to how your character holds his weapon is different. Sith warriors are more deliberate and slow with their attacks, making their strikes seem to hit with raw power, while Jedi Knights use finesse and agility to deal many strikes over a small period of time. It doesn't matter than mechanically, underneath all that, that they are the same, what matters is the presentation, Warriors have a different story and different animations.

Same could be said for faction switching, you can't faction switch because the story doesn't allow for it. Doing good things as a Sith doesn't mean you are helping the republic or the Jedi, it means you're helping the Empire be a better place. Same with a Jedi going bad, you aren't helping the empire by being evil, you are doing evil things towards the empire. In fact, my Jedi Knight's class quest had him helping some imperial soldiers, they were being attacked by a bunch of insect-like creatures, and my light side option was to save them. The game is filled with moral dilemmas like that one. Having them start neutral is a bad idea, because, as I mentioned before, each class would feel less unique. Mechanically SW and JK may be two sides of the same coin, Agents/Smugglers and Troppers/Bounty Hunters are not from a lore perspective.

You're right, and that's the logic Bioware followed. There's nothing wrong with it, and it's been successful in the past. It's a controlled experience, and easily balanced by keeping most of the core mechanics the same, and tweaking the animations to add diversity.

But this makes the class less unique. Because they are inherently the same.

This leads to the columnists problem... every one has the same story, everyone follows the rails. There are choices, which he found interesting, but the bits in between are stale. You can add variety by giving players options which will suit their mood of the day. One day I might be pretty happy with life, and use softer, probably more utility based skills. The next day I might have stubbed my toe and just want to Force Choke every mob I meet!

Guild Wars, and pretty much every Cryptic game post City of Villains lets you alter your character skills when you wish, by allowing tweaking outside of combat. WoW picked up this idea too, when they realised how restrictive their class trees were. So no disruption in overall game play... just a little more to play around with in the quest hubs.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the idea of a neutral start point. The last City of Heroes expansion featured a brand new starter area, which was neutral between Hero and Villain, and through the first twenty levels, you character developed into either side. This game also has very different classes for each side, which later merged into the anti-hero and vigilante shifting alignment system they have now.

Most Star Wars games were built on the conflict between Light and Dark sides. I'd be shocked if Bioware or EA didn't try to implement something similar later, and am just disappointed they didn't start out with it... or made the classes diverse enough with their mechanics to make it worthwhile later.

I think that gradual development of a character makes them more unique, than certain arbitrary choices they make. What I'm saying is that diversity and choice should be built into the core game play itself, not in menus or cut scenes. And it's not that hard to pull off... others have done it before, and are developing it now.

 

[Supernova2000]

The deflecting does happen in game, it happens quite often in fact. it just doesn't happen all the time. I would say the animations sync up 99% of the time just fine.

the game isn't super demanding either, I run it fairly well with a very middle of the road PC. It's an issue that guy was having on his end, probably with fraps as that can cause frame rate issues. Also, regardless of your rig you are probably gonna have frame rate drops some of the time, which is why the game went with the style it went with. having hundreds of people on in a large area is taxing for even the best of machines. Some of TOR's planets are quite large, and the hubs for both factions during peak hours could have more than 300 people in them, so your performance is gonna take a hit.

One minor nit-pick, Jedi Knights are not strictly tanks. Jedi Knights can tank through the Guardian advanced class, but that doesn't limit the base class and Guardians to ONLY tanking. In fact Jedi Knights do not start out by having the ability to wear heavy armor as only the guardian has the ability to.

Yeah, that I know from Star Trek Online; Earth Space Dock slowing my framerate to a crawl whenever it was really busy.

What I meant was 'more of a tank than the Consular', given the emphasis on fighting up close.

 

[Lex Darko]

I watched video from GW2 and while the combat seems more action based, it really is built on the same system. Your character stands in front of a mob until it dies neither showing any reaction to damage taken. You both are stand there tanking until one of you die. GW and GW2 combat is faster but the base system is the same.

What makes Vindictus, Blade and Soul and TERA online different is that, the combat in those games can actually be played with a controller.

Now I'll be first to admit the best aspect of Vindictus is its combat system; the rest of the game as far as questing, and the game world are lacking. But in that game you never expected to sit in front a boss character and have a dps race.

If you start taking to many hits your armor takes damage and literally starts to break off (don't worry repair is easy). In Vindictus moves are done through combos using heavy and light attack buttons, not a quickslot bar where you click on icons of skills that you character then beings doing an animation for.

Now Blade and Soul and TERA Online are more traditional in that your character does do more of a stand in front and dps race with mobs, but I can forgive that because both of those games have persistent worlds. But the combat in those games is still far more engaging than what TOR and WoW offer.

http://youtu.be/mCO4fH-JBIk Lann twin spear gameplay

http://youtu.be/mNFjqF3QmeU Blade and Soul combo sytem with eng subs

http://youtu.be/GH6Q82JTJKk Tera Online an MMO archer that actually has to aim not just tab target

 

[Mike Fang]

"It would be foolish to suggest that Bioware should have attempted or even had the financial resources to simultaneously challenge the status quo in MMO design on all fronts..."

Uh, why would that be foolish? ArenaNet is doing exactly that with Guild Wars 2, from all reports, and they don't have the financial backing of a company like EA. And by Dennis's own admission, the aspects of TOR that have become standard to most MMO's just get in the way of the parts that are new and innovative, which he seems to like a whole lot more. It sounds like Bioware SHOULD have attempted to challenge more of the status quo, because the innovations are what makes TOR stand out more, and it could have used more of them.

And I don't think it would have been that difficult with some of the standard practices. Take, for example, how Dennis said having all the companions for a given class identical broke the immersion of the game. That could have been easily fixed; just have the appearance and name of the companion randomly generated. It would make sense for each Imperial Agent to have an assistant or whatever assigned to them, but there's no reason they would have to all look like the Empire used the same cloning technology they use to mass produce stormtroopers to also produce assistants.