How to do Stealth right?

[almostgold]

So Yahtzee has insisted that the Thief series is the only game that has done stealth right, many people feel splinter cell and MGS represent the peak of stealth gameplay, others think those are hack, and some prefer RPG stealth gameplay such as Oblivion or Rogues in WoW.

So my question is, Escapist, what do you think a game need to incorporate for 'good' stealth, and what can Devs do to innovate or change it up? Give examples of good stealth if you can.

My opinions:
What make Stealth good:
-The core elements of how your detected: sound and light (duh), as well as how fast your moving and how close you are to an NPC.
-Good AI. Really, it is my belief that stealth games and strategy games require the best AI possible. This can make or break a game in either of those genres.
-Someway of knowing how exposed you are (Thief had the gem, Riddick the bluish tint, etc)
-A way to incapacitate enemies that is effective but difficult. Melee attacks (blackjack, snapping necks to use the previous examples) are obvious examples. Need to be close to the enemy to pull it off. Ranged attacks are tricky. Riddick's stealth went South for me the second I got the tranq gun.
-Sufficient consequences for getting caught.

Innovations I wan to see:
-Make NPC's hardly ever go into shadowy areas. The above example of close up melee kills being good loses something if enemies are constantly peering into corners or walking into dark rooms. The farther NPC's stay in the light and middle of rooms, the harder it will be, and the happier I will.
-There seems to be a formula where getting caught leads to a few minutes of frantic action during an alarm. (Splinter cell: Alarm going off? "*Sigh*, guess I'll have to get out my automatic rifle. Chh-*****. Shame."). Id be for a deduction of your score, or a drastic change in gameplay for the rest of the level (double guards, guards with flashlights, etc) which don't go away. Action isn't always a punishment. At the very least, dont give us a machine gun or a broadsword.
-More interactive environments. Pick up objects, light a sofa on fire as a diversion, jam doors shut, pour oil on the floor. Imagine the good times.
-I have a massive hard-on for climbing in videogames. Maybe its because I rock climb in real life, but the more vertical planes I can access in a game the happier I am. There is a specific spot in Riddick I can remember where I had a burst of joy upon realizing that instead of shooting out the lights and going through a door, I could walk up a flight of stairs, jump over the railing, land on some boxes, and climb my way down to get in some shadows. I was pleased.
-This is more of an abstract wish, but I'd like to see just one game that finds a way to do stealth in some campy, non-light orientated way. Assassin's Creed 'Social stealth' idea had the potential to be great, if, you know, it hadn't ended up sucking. In typing this out I had a really cool idea for a color-based stealth game that I'll try to post later.

So that's what I got. Escapists, impress me.

 

[Johnnyallstar]

Arkham Asylum did a very good job as well with the whole stealth aspect. But the biggest issue with making a game that has a large stealth component is that it's difficult to balance. Usually going stealth is too good, or not good enough.

Oblivion, for example. Maximizing stealth you could wander in front of people in broad daylight and not be seen, and get huge attack multipliers without being noticed. Didn't much care for it.

Other games, stealth often seems tacked on, and nearly pointless. It's just a very difficult thing to balance.

 

[almostgold]

Arkham Asylum did a very good job as well with the whole stealth aspect.

Oh yes, I forgot Batman. That is excellent example of innovation, IMO. Instead of trying to stay unknown and hide bodies, you were encouraged to be merely unseen and leave bodies out. Turned the table from you being the hunted to you being the hunter. LOVED it.

 

[Veldt Falsetto]

Actually MGS3 and 4 did it really well with the whole camo index stuff, customising your camo to get hidden better and even the way you can move while crawling on 4, it's really well done tbh

 

[Lullabye]

Okay bear with me, but the best stealth I've ever played was.........halo3 online.......yes, yes I said that.
I've plyed thief, and Assassin's creed ad MGS2,3,4 and I find the thing that makes these games both good and bad is that...well, you're supposed to stealth kill.
Once I played a game mode in halo3 called "Predator", in which one person is "predator" and everyone else is trying to either kill him and stay alive.
The thing that stuck out in this game mode for me, wasn't that, instead of being a quick and sneaky assassin, you were merely a big slow slightly warped patch of air that could jump really high. No you didn't get and close range weapons. You got a pistol that didn't do damage, and you could only kill people by hitting them from behind.
What really stuck out for me, was the feeling. A stealth game should feel suspenseful. If you so much as aimed a centimeter or two in the wrong direction, you're dead. The reason it's a stealth game is because you shouldn't be getting caught. This random match online in Halo of all things provided that feeling. The survivors stuck in groups, you had to quickly take a straggler out and then run like hell otherwise everyone and their mother would be unloading lead into your face. Maybe what stealth games need is just a better AI. It would make all the difference.

 

[almostgold]

Actually MGS3 and 4 did it really well with the whole camo index stuff, customising your camo to get hidden better and even the way you can move while crawling on 4, it's really well done tbh

Don't have a PS#, so I've never played 4. Gonna check out some youtube videos of that now though...

Okay bear with me, but the best stealth I've ever played was.........halo3 online.......yes, yes I said that.
I've plyed thief, and Assassin's creed ad MGS2,3,4 and I find the thing that makes these games both good and bad is that...well, you're supposed to stealth kill.
Once I played a game mode in halo3 called "Predator", in which one person is "predator" and everyone else is trying to either kill him and stay alive.
The thing that stuck out in this game mode for me, wasn't that, instead of being a quick and sneaky assassin, you were merely a big slow slightly warped patch of air that could jump really high. No you didn't get and close range weapons. You got a pistol that didn't do damage, and you could only kill people by hitting them from behind.
What really stuck out for me, was the feeling. A stealth game should feel suspenseful. If you so much as aimed a centimeter or two in the wrong direction, you're dead. The reason it's a stealth game is because you shouldn't be getting caught. This random match online in Halo of all things provided that feeling. The survivors stuck in groups, you had to quickly take a straggler out and then run like hell otherwise everyone and their mother would be unloading lead into your face. Maybe what stealth games need is just a better AI. It would make all the difference.

I gotta be honest, one of my favorite stealth memories is playing 'Assault on the Control Room' from Halo CE with a a friend. There were those chains of big circular rooms with walkways around them, so we would run up to trigger the door to open and run back, until we caught a glimpse of a an elite walking by, then we'd wait a second, run out and mellee him in the back, then crouch behind the little blocks. We would then leap frog forward, taking out jackal and grunts silently as they walked by and staying out of sight of those in the center. Hardest stealth sequence ever.

 

[Romaru]

MGS4 seemed far too much action for me. For me it was at it's best in MGS1 for at least the stealth aspect. If you set off any alarms in MGS1 then you were probably going to be very dead thanks to infinite guards spawning in. Even armed with a machine gun you would probably be better off reloading.

Some of the later games had great additions to this but as you get closer to 4 the stealth starts losing out to the action side. It ruined MGS4 for me because of the fact you could play through it with an M60 and just go barmy, and just keep buying bullets from Drebin.

 

[Irridium]

I think the best way to impliment stealth is to not force it on the player.

Thats how I end up hating stealth machanics.

 

[N3Burgener]

- Some way of being able to observe where enemies are (or where they're moving to) that doesn't require you to be standing out in the open, directly in their line of sight. In some regards, it adds to suspense when you DON'T know where a guard is, but I feel like the more information you have the better you feel about doing something. Too often I feel like I'm playing roulette and it's the luck of whether there's a guard in front of me at the time or not, rather than me planning a deviously sly route.

+ This could be alleviated by use of some clever implementation of a radar and mapping system which gives you a chance to see what's ahead before you plunge headfirst into it.

- Less penalization for being detected. Too many games have guards that go to full scale red alert if they catch so much as a glimpse of your pinky. Shouldn't it be common practice for one or two guards to inspect the source of the anomaly before going ballistic? Even then you're usually backed into a corner and have nowhere to go, so you're just as screwed. In most cases, it means that I rely on quick-save every 5 seconds, and if I get caught, instead of escaping from the situation, I simply re-load a save from 20 seconds ago.

+ Give the player smoke bombs or something which gives them a few seconds to escape; usually if you get caught you're stuck running away for eternity which just makes you more easily detected.

-Include some James Bond-style espionage, complete with fake IDs and disguises. I realize this isn't exactly stealth, but every so often it might be nice to KO a guard and take his uniform to walk around for a little while. Death to Spies had a pretty interesting implementation for this sort of thing.

-More non-linearity in maps, which gives the player freedom to move and to plan. Linear maps (hallways, square rooms with an entrance and an exit) are just unnecessary bottlenecks meant to screw with the player. These tend to be difficult, but not because of real challenge, more because of how unfair and uncooperative the environments are. It's like being given a math test except the teacher's just broken all of your pencils and you're supposed to write it out by scratching the work onto your desk with a rock. And then you get in trouble for defacing property.

In conclusion, stealth games just need to eliminate the feeling of "Trial and Error," because it feels like every stealth game or stealth sequence is a matter of going forward until something unpredictable happens, and then jumping in my timemachine quick-load function and doing it all again with the knowledge that I could not possibly have known prior. Stealth games can still be challenging, but I feel like players want to be treated with more respect by having more intelligent gameplay design and implementation, rather than challenges that are there just for the sake of being unfair. I want to feel like I'm the one manipulating what's going on, rather than feeling like the game is playing me for the fool.

 

[SnootyEnglishman]

I believe the Hitman games came close to your vision there goldy. Blend in seemlessly with the crowd, knock random things over to cause a distraction whilst you take out the intended target..score deductions were accounted for whenever you used firepower. Is there anything else i missed? well i can say that Blood Money was the best one of the series

 

[camokkid]

I like your idea of creating distractions(unless you saw it from a game [b/]EDIT:[/b] which I am pretty sure you did).

I love stealth games, because I like trying to be stealthy in real life, like sneaking downstairs to get some snacks after dark.

 

[almostgold]

- Some way of being able to observe where enemies are (or where they're moving to) that doesn't require you to be standing out in the open, directly in their line of sight. In some regards, it adds to suspense when you DON'T know where a guard is, but I feel like the more information you have the better you feel about doing something. Too often I feel like I'm playing roulette and it's the luck of whether there's a guard in front of me at the time or not, rather than me planning a deviously sly route.

+ This could be alleviated by use of some clever implementation of a radar and mapping system which gives you a chance to see what's ahead before you plunge headfirst into it.

- Less penalization for being detected. Too many games have guards that go to full scale red alert if they catch so much as a glimpse of your pinky. Shouldn't it be common practice for one or two guards to inspect the source of the anomaly before going ballistic? Even then you're usually backed into a corner and have nowhere to go, so you're just as screwed. In most cases, it means that I rely on quick-save every 5 seconds, and if I get caught, instead of escaping from the situation, I simply re-load a save from 20 seconds ago.

+ Give the player smoke bombs or something which gives them a few seconds to escape; usually if you get caught you're stuck running away for eternity which just makes you more easily detected.

-Include some James Bond-style espionage, complete with fake IDs and disguises. I realize this isn't exactly stealth, but every so often it might be nice to KO a guard and take his uniform to walk around for a little while. Death to Spies had a pretty interesting implementation for this sort of thing.

-More non-linearity in maps, which gives the player freedom to move and to plan. Linear maps (hallways, square rooms with an entrance and an exit) are just unnecessary bottlenecks meant to screw with the player. These tend to be difficult, but not because of real challenge, more because of how unfair and uncooperative the environments are. It's like being given a math test except the teacher's just broken all of your pencils and you're supposed to write it out by scratching the work onto your desk with a rock. And then you get in trouble for defacing property.

In conclusion, stealth games just need to eliminate the feeling of "Trial and Error," because it feels like every stealth game or stealth sequence is a matter of going forward until something unpredictable happens, and then jumping in my timemachine quick-load function and doing it all again with the knowledge that I could not possibly have known prior. Stealth games can still be challenging, but I feel like players want to be treated with more respect by having more intelligent gameplay design and implementation, rather than challenges that are there just for the sake of being unfair. I want to feel like I'm the one manipulating what's going on, rather than feeling like the game is playing me for the fool.

Wow, I agree with everything up there, except the less punishment part. i can't believe I forgot detection in my post. Yes, its imperative. In Riddick, you could hear heartbeats if someone was by you, louder if they were closer. But a more definitive way would be nice, like thermal imaging through walls, or a MW2-style heartbreak sensor?
Definitly get rid of that trial-and-error feel though. Players want to be in control. keep things moving, keep things suspenseful.

 

[The Night Shade]

i like the stealth in the splinter cell franchise because it simple and basic

 

[A Weary Exile]

Tenchu Z was the best stealth game I've ever played, but the story was crap and there were only about five different levels (They try to trick you by starting you off on a different corner of the map each mission) but it was fun since I loved stalking someone then getting up close to rip their entrails out.

 

[Souplex]

The best way to handle stealth is to make it entirely optional.

 

[Kuchinawa212]

One thing that's big is a better AI in the guards. Like some that would not just have ONE route. So you'd have to plan it right. not a three second, end of the hall thing, but chasing around hallways ready for the knife kill!
Also, antsy guards. Like ones that run check around corners like a paranoid and run to grab back up if they think they see you. I want to pretty much sneak past people, not mindless drones

 

[Starke]

Honestly the stealth in Quantum of Solace was pretty good with a few caveats. The stealth was basically optional. Failing stealth would only bring in more easily dispatched enemies. Said enemies would be better equiped than the mooks you were fighting at the time. Beyond that, there was no penalty, except for a few achievments.

The real trick here is, breaking stealth would usually leave you better equiped than you would be otherwise. I remember in one mission it would give you an M14 and loads of ammo for it from killing the elites. Said M14 was one of the best weapons for that mission strand, and could usually be used to get you through a couple serious firefights after the stealth section.

That said, this was one of the only things the game got right. The entire thing could be easily finished in about four hours.

 

[almostgold]

Sidequestion: anyone know a good stealth based browser game?

 

[Flying-Emu]

SNIP

This game has already been made.

It's called Thief II: The Metal Age.

 

[Stabby McRunfast]

Play Hitman 2: Silent Assassin. I loved the stealth in that game. Steal clothing, use special silenced guns, using knives and fiber wire when you want to conserve ammo while silently killing. Also the use of chloroform allows you to incapacitate guards without having to kill them and just killing the target. Great game.