How to Hate

[TheGuy(wantstobe)]

How to Hate

One approach to taking down the menace of the week in your local playgroup.

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My thought process is a little different but quite similar when coming up against a deck that begins to warp a local meta to the point of needing to be taken out.

I start with just asking a few simple questions;

"What is this deck's plan to win?"
"How does it go about this?"
"When does the deck usually win?"

From this you can determine a list of possible answers from all five colours and choose accordingly.

The craterhoof deck is a combo deck at heart looking to use one or two key cards and go off for the win. As it utilises early creatures to do so rather than spells you are able to disrupt in many more ways than simple counterspells too. That brings a quick list of counters down to:

Red
[mtg_card=Arc Trail]
[mtg_card=Slagstorm]
[mtg_card=Incinerate]
[mtg_card=Bonfire of the Damned]
[mtg_card=Gut Shot]

Blue
[mtg_card=Mana leak]
[mtg_card=Dissipate]
[mtg_card=Rewind]
[mtg_card=Vapor Snag]

White
[mtg_card=Oblivion Ring]
[mtg_card=Fiend Hunter]
[mtg_card=Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite]
[mtg_card=Day of Judgment]
Various fogs or psuedo fogs such as stonehorn dignitary

Black
[mtg_card=Doom Blade]
[mtg_card=Go for the Throat]
[mtg_card=Tragic Slip]
[mtg_card=Mutilate]
[mtg_card=Memoricide]
[mtg_card=Life's Finale]
[mtg_card=Surgical Extraction]
[mtg_card=Despise]
Other kill spells etc

Green
Fogs and other combat tricks

From that list I'd see if any would be possible to include in the sideboard of my current deck or perhaps my maindeck if the craterhoof deck is prevelant enough in the local scene. If not and it really is that oppressive I'll start looking at building a new deck.

The two decks i'm piloting are currently mono-B zombies and UG "Miracle Gro". I'm 95% sure that my miracle gro deck would be fine against the craterhoof deck (provided my deck doesn't bend me over again with 10 out of 18 lands in only 6-8 turns every game for a tourney) but if need be I can add fog and surgical extraction to the sideboard to shore up my game 2+3 and add the extraction main if the deck becomes too oppressive.

My mono-B zombies can be either turn BR for point removal or kept mono black and include more sweepers in mutilate, BSZ and have specific answers in the form of life's finale and memoricide to deal with the guys who you don't want to see hit the table.

==============================

Now then I'd like to present for your viewing pleasure the sexiness that is

The Rock is coming back baby XD

This is from the Izzet vs Golgari duel deck and is the mythic RTR preview card from it. The other spoiled card so far is from a "mistake" in M13 printing where a print run had RTR card Rootborn Defenses instead of a basic plains.
Rootborn Defenses 2W
Instant
Populate. Creatures you control are indestructible this turn.

Populate is the Selesnya mechanic this time around. It let's you put a copy of a token creature you control into play under your control.

 

[Blightning]

Spellskite can totally ruin the pump from the elf.

I assume you're talking about Ezuri? Spellskite can't interact with Ezuri's abilities at all. The pump is non-targeted, so Spellskite can't steal it. Spellskite also can't steal the "regenerate another target elf" ability because it's not an elf and thus not a valid target. All spellskite does against it is have a big butt, which won't do much if they can just pump again next turn.

Craterhoof Elves seems really vulnerable to burns. Ezuri can save other elves, but he's the most dangerous elf in the deck and can only save himself with 5 mana. 1st or second-turn burns should just completely erode the deck's ability to combo off. Being on the draw and playing second turn arc trail, taking out an archdruid and a mana dork seems like it would just crush the deck.

 

[Kross]

You are one of my favorite cards, @Blightning - I've never regretted playing you.

 

[Encaen]

Spellskite can totally ruin the pump from the elf.

I assume you're talking about Ezuri? Spellskite can't interact with Ezuri's abilities at all. The pump is non-targeted, so Spellskite can't steal it. Spellskite also can't steal the "regenerate another target elf" ability because it's not an elf and thus not a valid target. All spellskite does against it is have a big butt, which won't do much if they can just pump again next turn.

Craterhoof Elves seems really vulnerable to burns. Ezuri can save other elves, but he's the most dangerous elf in the deck and can only save himself with 5 mana. 1st or second-turn burns should just completely erode the deck's ability to combo off. Being on the draw and playing second turn arc trail, taking out an archdruid and a mana dork seems like it would just crush the deck.

I've got high hopes that I can prove you right about the turn-two [mtg_card=Arc Trail]. I've not been playing Red for a while now, but two of the three decks I assembled to combat Craterhoof are running Red, so we'll see tomorrow how that pans out! I figure between [mtg_card=Arc Trail] and [mtg_card=Slagstorm] I should be fine, but I've seen his elves come back from pretty bad situations before.

I'm simultaneously most excited and most concerned about my Esper mill design, though. Something about running a dozen sweepers just makes me happy, and between [mtg_card=Despise], [mtg_card=Mana Leak] and [mtg_card=Dissipate], I expect to even survive long enough to cast one, but my initial rounds of testing have shown elves to be a bit too resilient, and I often find myself one sweeper shy of winning.

Also, in case anybody's not familiar [mtg_card=Blightning] is amazing.

Snip!

I tried sideboarding, and even some main deck modification of my GW Thragtusk deck to fight Craterhoof, but minor changes just weren't enough to have any real impact on how the games played out, so I ended up going in entirely different directions. I did come to largely the same conclusions that you did, card-wise, for battling the behemoth. In fact, my Esper deck is running like 10 of those cards you mention. It's not performing super well in testing, as I mentioned, as I think I went a little overboard on the hate, but boy is it fun to [mtg_card=Life's Finale] into [mtg_card=Surgical Extraction]. I've got one more night to make it work!

 

[TheGuy(wantstobe)]

Snip!

I tried sideboarding, and even some main deck modification of my GW Thragtusk deck to fight Craterhoof, but minor changes just weren't enough to have any real impact on how the games played out, so I ended up going in entirely different directions. I did come to largely the same conclusions that you did, card-wise, for battling the behemoth. In fact, my Esper deck is running like 10 of those cards you mention. It's not performing super well in testing, as I mentioned, as I think I went a little overboard on the hate, but boy is it fun to [mtg_card=Life's Finale] into [mtg_card=Surgical Extraction]. I've got one more night to make it work!

Haha. Yeah that tends to happen when you have a single deck in your sights. The rest of the field eats you up but if you come up against the deck you hate on you'll have an amazing day XD

There are many other cards I didn't mention that work really well against Elfhoof/Craterzuri/Beasty Elves/CHAAAAAAARGE!? (haven't decided on a good name for the deck yet ) in Esper such as Nevermore/unburial rites+titans/tappers etc but generally memoricide alone will shut this type of deck down so hard it'll be fun to watch and can be left in the board while your main deck is tuned to face the general field.

Turbofog would also be the perfect counter to this deck as who cares if they swing for a billion damage when you have 6 fogs in hand and can draw another 8 cards for more on demand? Speaking of which the deck i'm playing at tomorrow's FMN is a turbofog variant with door to nothingness as it's alt wincon. I expect to go 1-4 and maybe 2-3 if I get lucky with my matchups.

 

[2xDouble]

Snip

So what happens when they use:

ancient grudge, smelt, naturalize, crushing vines, divine offering, revoke existence, crush, shatter

And that's just the spells, which don't take into account the creatures with EtB effects that destroy artifacts? Or spells that destroy enchantments.

What do you do then? What's your alternate win condition?

It's called "the stack". Anything that destroys the artifact has no effect on the activation of its ability. Prevent or negate the activation else I win.

However, since you asked (and didn't read the article last week), secondary win conditions: [mtg_card=Craterhoof Behemoth] - swing for win; [mtg_card=Bonfire of the Damned] for ~30 (or 11+ & [mtg_card=Reverberate]) - win; [mtg_card=Ezuri, Renegade Leader] craziness... etc. Hell, I sideboarded [mtg_card=Sands of Delirium] because I think it'd be funny.

And before you get all snippy again: Yes, there exists spell and creature control too.

 

[Draconalis]

And before you get all snippy again: Yes, there exists spell and creature control too.

Oi, lay off the attitude, I was geniunly interested in knowing what your alternate condition was WHEN your door to nothing gets naturalized while it's still tapped.... since it comes into play... tapped. No amount of stack will help you then.

Or when your enchantment gets exiled because everyone is afraid of rancor.

Or when all your dorks get swepted on turn 4 (Which, I might add, since you're on the draw, is your turn 3)

The fastest you can win... with the absolutely perfect hand/draws, is turn 6, and that's forgoing all your control and creatures. And even then, it might still not be possible because I think you're 1 card draw too short

 

[Rack]

Playing when Affinity was at its height was a combination of hilarious and depressing. 4 games in 5 would end with me crushing their net-deck with a truly astounding amount of hate while they complained that they couldn't sideboard against me because I was going rogue. Not one of them seemed to realise that taking the same deck as 80% of the field might leave them vulnerable to a hate strategy.

 

[2xDouble]

Oi, lay off the attitude, I was geniunly interested ...

It didn't come across.

Just like any alternative win condition, [mtg_card=Door to Nothingness] is vulnerable to different "hate" than "normal" victory conditions. Fortunately, until they know what you're up to, you can actually use power cards like [mtg_card=Rancor] to decoy away from the Repository/Door (or just to hit with). That's combo players' rule #1: always have a backup plan. (...and rule #2: expectation is your weapon) You're right though, I should be playing Door earlier (as my previous posts indicate, is VERY possible), that way I need only 4-6 counters on [mtg_card=Druid's Repository], or less if I can pull out [mtg_card=Primeval Titan] and a bunch of Dual lands. I don't have the cards for it yet, but there is the possibility of using [mtg_card=Clock of Omens] alongside the "infinite Myr" combos, again, to distract from what I'm really doing.

You should see the [mtg_card=Battle of Wits] decks though. They're beautiful turn 5/6 wins... and force players to slow down their game or play cards they wouldn't normally use. (who uses pro-Blue anything?) It really pisses off meta players. Basic idea: play land, counter everything, use Searches(such as [mtg_card=Diabolic Tutor] and [mtg_card=Diabolic Revelation]) to get specific counters, get Battle of Wits out, win.

 

[Encaen]

Well that was exciting! I brought a back-to-basics Wolf Run deck to see how it fared against Craterhoof, packing slightly fewer [mtg_card=Huntmaster of the Fells], 4x [mtg_card=Slagstorm], 2x [mtg_card=Bonfire of the Damned], and 4x [mtg_card=Arc Trail]. For some reason I didn't have any [mtg_card=Whipflare]s lying around, else I would have run a couple in place of some [mtg_card=Arc Trail]s.

Game 1 - I win the roll, mulligan to 6, and keep 3 lands, 2 ramp spells, and a [mtg_card=Huntmaster of the Fells] on the play. I play a land and pass. Steve plays [mtg_card=Llanowar Elves]. I [mtg_card=Rampant Growth] and pass, Steve plays 2x [mtg_card=Arbor Elf] and a [mtg_card=Copperhorn Scout]. I draw [mtg_card=Slagstorm], breath a sign of relief, and realize I only have 1 red source. This makes me sad, so I [mtg_card=Rampant Growth] again for my second red source and pass the turn. Steve casts [mtg_card=Soul of the Harvest] and hits me with his Scout. I draw a [mtg_card=Green Sun's Zenith], cast [mtg_card=Slagstorm], clearing his elves, then I cast a third [mtg_card=Rampant Growth] and pass. Steve swings for 6, I go to 13. He casts an [mtg_card=Elvish Archdruid] and draws off the Soul. I'm currently sitting on 2x [mtg_card=Green Sun's Zenith] and a [mtg_card=Huntmaster of the Fells], with 6 mana in play. I cast Huntmaster going to 15, then GSZ for 1 to get [mtg_card=Birds of Paradise]. Steve swings for 6 again, I go to 9. He casts another [mtg_card=Copperhorn Scout] draws and passes. I draw the land I needed last turn, play it, GSZ for 6 for [mtg_card=Primeval Titan]. I get [mtg_card=Kessig Wolf Run] and [mtg_card=Inkmoth Nexus] and pass the turn. He swings for 6, and I gladly trade my Titan for his Soul. He casts [mtg_card=Lead the Stampede] revealing 4 creatures, including a [mtg_card=Craterhoof Behemoth] and I get a little nervous. I draw dead with [mtg_card=Cavern of Souls] and pump an [mtg_card=Inkmoth Nexus] to swing for 7 infect. [mtg_card=Huntmaster of the Fells] flips to [mtg_card=Ravager of the Fells] on his turn, and I [mtg_card=Shock] his Archdruid, breathing another long sigh of relief. He's no longer on Craterhoof mana, and he [mtg_card=ponder]s his options for a minute, casts an [mtg_card=Elvish Visionary], draws off it, and scoops. YAY POISON!

Game 2 was a different sort of affair. I'm on the draw and I start with [mtg_card=Bonfire of the Damned] in hand, with lands, ramp and a [mtg_card=Primeval Titan]. He leads with a turn two Archdruid, putting his elves out of reach of my third turn bonfire-for-one. I [mtg_card=Rampant Growth] for a Mountain, shuffle up, and politely ask Steve to cut to [mtg_card=Slagstorm] or [mtg_card=Bonfire of the Damned] so I don't lose on turn four. He casts more elves on turn three, and things are looking pretty grim for me... until I draw for my third turn. He actually cut to my sole remaining bonfire, which forced me to grin ear to ear and immediately reveal. I burned his team out for 2, clearing the board, played a land and passed the turn. He starts ramping back up with elves and passes the turn. He's just starting to get his board presence back with 3 elves out, but no Archdruid in sight, and I cast my second Bonfire, clearing his board again. I attack with a Titan and a pair of Inkmoths, putting him to 10 and 2 poison. He doesn't run [mtg_card=Fog] anymore, and I pump my Titan to lethal proportions the next turn and win.

tldr: Game 1 was close, but Huntmaster saved the day when he flipped, taking out an Archdruid. Game 2 was not so close, since Steve kindly cut straight to the [mtg_card=Bonfire of the Damned] that I needed to win. Nowhere did I see [mtg_card=Arc Trail], though, but I still imagine it feels pretty good to kill a pair of elves on turn two.

Thanks for un-retiring Craterhoof long enough to let me get my last shot at it, @[user]Steve Butts[/user]!

 

[TheGuy(wantstobe)]

snip

Sweet! Glad to hear you took the deck out and stopped it from going undefeated in your group .

Any thoughts on what's gonna be played next week at Worlds in the standard portion and are you going to be watching the block decks as much as I am to see what a good place to start for post rotation is going to be?

 

[Encaen]

snip

Sweet! Glad to hear you took the deck out and stopped it from going undefeated in your group .

Any thoughts on what's gonna be played next week at Worlds in the standard portion and are you going to be watching the block decks as much as I am to see what a good place to start for post rotation is going to be?

Yay, World Magic Cup! I'm honestly none-too-sure what to expect, as you can never account for innovation, but here's what I'd like to see at the top...
A Wolf Run variant - maybe RUG since I like hardcasting[mtg_card=Temporal Mastery].
Zombie Pod - I love Zombies and I love [mtg_card=Birthing Pod]. Together they are just beautiful.
Bant or RUG Pod - Since Zombie Pod doesn't really play out like a Pod deck, I'd like to see a more traditional pod deck, though I like the variants rather than Naya. I really want to see a professional player flicker [mtg_card=Acidic Slime] with [mtg_card=Deadeye Navigator] like a hundred times.
Reanimator - I love reanimator decks, and I want to see someone [mtg_card=Unburial Rites] [mtg_card=Griselbrand], draw 7, then win.
And/Or
Something novel - I'm not too picky on this front. As long as I've never seen it before, I'd love to see it win!

And yes, I'll definitely be watching Block. Looking over recent Daily events in MTGO, it looks like 4-color decks are somehow winning, despite having what seems to be really shaky mana. From what I can tell, people have just splashed White into the previously-dominant Jund decks for [mtg_card=Restoration Angel]? It looks like a heavy commitment for just one card, but it seems to be working!

 

[TheGuy(wantstobe)]

snip

Sweet! Glad to hear you took the deck out and stopped it from going undefeated in your group .

Any thoughts on what's gonna be played next week at Worlds in the standard portion and are you going to be watching the block decks as much as I am to see what a good place to start for post rotation is going to be?

Yay, World Magic Cup! I'm honestly none-too-sure what to expect, as you can never account for innovation, but here's what I'd like to see at the top...
A Wolf Run variant - maybe RUG since I like hardcasting[mtg_card=Temporal Mastery].
Zombie Pod - I love Zombies and I love [mtg_card=Birthing Pod]. Together they are just beautiful.
Bant or RUG Pod - Since Zombie Pod doesn't really play out like a Pod deck, I'd like to see a more traditional pod deck, though I like the variants rather than Naya. I really want to see a professional player flicker [mtg_card=Acidic Slime] with [mtg_card=Deadeye Navigator] like a hundred times.
Reanimator - I love reanimator decks, and I want to see someone [mtg_card=Unburial Rites] [mtg_card=Griselbrand], draw 7, then win.
And/Or
Something novel - I'm not too picky on this front. As long as I've never seen it before, I'd love to see it win!

And yes, I'll definitely be watching Block. Looking over recent Daily events in MTGO, it looks like 4-color decks are somehow winning, despite having what seems to be really shaky mana. From what I can tell, people have just splashed White into the previously-dominant Jund decks for [mtg_card=Restoration Angel]? It looks like a heavy commitment for just one card, but it seems to be working!

Well I know there's some sweet tech being played from the Wales team to try and shore up their blue decks.
Looking at the standard results from last week and the few final weeks in July the format seems really open and I think the gilded grixis control deck could end up taking the crown for the standard portion.

After posting and looking through the MODO lists I remembered that the strongest deck in the format has been banned out of existence! TOKENS. Without this deck being allowed to be played and knowing that there is no reliable turn 4 wrath effect in October standard as of right now I have to wonder what are Wizards going to do.