How to Talk About Games #3
- Thread starter The Wooster
- Start date
I've gotta disagree on the connotations of the word "fun." It implies something is enjoyable, period. It doesn't imply depth or intelligence, but it certainly doesn't imply a lack of them either. It simply denotes enjoyment. Other than that nitpick, great series, guys. Well thought-out, well-presented.
Also:
Erin snorting coke off of a cat's stomach is now going to be my avatar for all of the forums. All of them.
Also:
Erin snorting coke off of a cat's stomach is now going to be my avatar for all of the forums. All of them.
I'll let a brilliant game explain it for me...xaszatm said:
http://lparchive.org/I-Have-No-Mouth-and-I-Must-Scream/Update%2040/img-26.png
No other game has had the balls to treat the Holocaust so frankly as "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream".
Didn't stop me from laughing at the words "skeletons popping out of ovens", though. D:
...More or less, I just get uneasy with the idea that all "opinions" are equally grounded. Democracy isn't perfect, but if 95% of people believe, say, that the new control set-up presented in a later game in a series is a marked improvement in ease-of-use over the controls of a previous offering in the series, there's a much better chance that you'll find the controls to be an improvement as well. The more specific and relatable a presented idea can get, the more likely it is to be of value to others, even if something like "The control system in #3 is better than that in #2" remains, in essence, an opinion.Yopaz said:
Here's my beef. Maybe it makes me a dinosaur, but for me, videogames are still primarily about being games, which are primarily about having fun.
Three cheers for wishing to re-brand the medium as interactive narrative, and I'll take thought-provoking introspective cerebral horror (Silent Hill 2) and punch-to-the-gut topical satire-commentary (Spec-Ops: The Line) over the latest attempt to re-animate Sonic the Hedgehog's gruesome corpse EVERY day of the week, but at the end of the day, I actually do want a GAME to PLAY that is FUN and CHALLENGING.
We should absolutely embrace the unique narrative capabilities of videogames, namely the fact that no other narrative medium places you in the role of both the audience and protagonist. And now more than ever, those narratives are in desperate need of depth. But this is where games differ from any other narrative medium, because a game absolutely lives or dies in how much fun it is to play.
If you want art, then don't judge it by how fun it is. The last thing art is concerned with is how fun it is. Games are supposed to be fun. A game that is not fun is no longer a game, it's a chore.
Three cheers for wishing to re-brand the medium as interactive narrative, and I'll take thought-provoking introspective cerebral horror (Silent Hill 2) and punch-to-the-gut topical satire-commentary (Spec-Ops: The Line) over the latest attempt to re-animate Sonic the Hedgehog's gruesome corpse EVERY day of the week, but at the end of the day, I actually do want a GAME to PLAY that is FUN and CHALLENGING.
We should absolutely embrace the unique narrative capabilities of videogames, namely the fact that no other narrative medium places you in the role of both the audience and protagonist. And now more than ever, those narratives are in desperate need of depth. But this is where games differ from any other narrative medium, because a game absolutely lives or dies in how much fun it is to play.
If you want art, then don't judge it by how fun it is. The last thing art is concerned with is how fun it is. Games are supposed to be fun. A game that is not fun is no longer a game, it's a chore.
That's pretty much how I gauge almost everything.StriderShinryu said:
I almost never tell people something is good or not, I always tell them if I liked it and make it very clear that it's my own personal viewpoint.
I just dive in, whether I enjoy it or not gets sorted out through the unconsciousness of my own personal taste. It simply strikes a chord in me, that's all it is, you don't have to agree with me we don't have to tell each other we're wrong, live and let die.
That being said, trying to defend a game by claiming your opinion is some holy objective viewpoint really makes me want to tear my hair out.
Bingo. Opinions are either justified by facts, which can be wrong, invalidating the opinion, or they can just be unjustified opinions, which are also invalid. Just because opinions aren't objective truths doesn't mean a specific opinion has any merit. If the only reason you have for me to listen to your opinion is that it has no objective merit, then why did you say it in the first place?burningdragoon said:
You know... I think the whole "Games are art" is the wrong way to look at it. Art, for the mainstream person, is mostly a passively experienced thing. You look at a sculpture, you watch a movie. You listen to music.
Games are more feats of engineering than anything else.
Games are more feats of engineering than anything else.
correct. ( from my viewpoint, obviously.. which is the viewpoint of viewing viewpoints, in this instance. )Mike Fang said:
opinion = viewpoint
viewpoint = perspective
perspective = you see part(s) of something
ok enough with the words! so if you're ignoring some of the picture, literally anything could be true. let's take a stupid example, porno mag with half naked picture on the cover ignore the naked part by folding the picture, ( generate a physical viewpoint ) now it's simply tasteful photography.
opinions and viewpoints, powerful stuff!
This is the third in this arc and I have the same opinion on all of them; the point of view and the way it's put forward seems very simplistic.
Let's not forget that a lot of these arguments are used in the same dick head manner that any other opinion is used. Some people don't know the difference between informed opinion with good arguments and the classic prick opinion that this comic talks about.
Also, I didn't find any of the jokes funny at all and I like Grey's sense of humour, for the most part. But this is all kind of just recycled arguments and points but with pretty pictures. I dunno, guys, this comic seems to be sort of just... Going nowhere with no real point.
But opinions are just that; opinions. They can't be wrong because they ARE subjective. What can be wrong is the facts used to back up those opinions. "I think It's an excellent game" is an opinion. " I think It's an excellent game because it rubs glass in your eyes" is also opinion without a valid argument as to why anyone else should feel the same. "I think it's an excellent game because it has the best control system of any game in the last ten years" is an opinion with a false fact (unless the controls really are that good, I guess). Opinions are kind of difficult. Some people like getting glass rubbed in their eyes. It's when people present opinions as fact that's the real problem. It's something Move Bob is VERY guilty of and it's the reason I pretty much refuse to watch anything that's based on his opinion (his educational stuff is very good, though). So, really, the thing we SHOULD be doing is accepting opinions AND education. Like when an opinion is based on false facts and misunderstandings. Education would help shape a better opinion and we should all be open to that, right?
Seems to me, if we were all less grumpy and quick to argue, things would be a whole lot better.
Let's not forget that a lot of these arguments are used in the same dick head manner that any other opinion is used. Some people don't know the difference between informed opinion with good arguments and the classic prick opinion that this comic talks about.
Also, I didn't find any of the jokes funny at all and I like Grey's sense of humour, for the most part. But this is all kind of just recycled arguments and points but with pretty pictures. I dunno, guys, this comic seems to be sort of just... Going nowhere with no real point.
But opinions are just that; opinions. They can't be wrong because they ARE subjective. What can be wrong is the facts used to back up those opinions. "I think It's an excellent game" is an opinion. " I think It's an excellent game because it rubs glass in your eyes" is also opinion without a valid argument as to why anyone else should feel the same. "I think it's an excellent game because it has the best control system of any game in the last ten years" is an opinion with a false fact (unless the controls really are that good, I guess). Opinions are kind of difficult. Some people like getting glass rubbed in their eyes. It's when people present opinions as fact that's the real problem. It's something Move Bob is VERY guilty of and it's the reason I pretty much refuse to watch anything that's based on his opinion (his educational stuff is very good, though). So, really, the thing we SHOULD be doing is accepting opinions AND education. Like when an opinion is based on false facts and misunderstandings. Education would help shape a better opinion and we should all be open to that, right?
Seems to me, if we were all less grumpy and quick to argue, things would be a whole lot better.
I want you guys to think for a minute: Someone actually wrote down somewhere, "Three panels, one is Erin snorting cocaine of a cat's stomach, one where she's squaring off against a giant scorpion wearing boxing gloves, and the last panel should be a fat guy wearing an NGE shirt."
Fun can mean many things. Being disturbed and frightened in horror games is fun, even if that isn't the first thing you think about when you hear "fun".
It can be all sorts of things. Skillfully jumping and navigating platforms in Quack Attack is fun. Tearing the beaks off penguins in Dwarf Fortress is fun, in a dark, absurd way. Realising you are utterly alone and hunted in Silent Hill is fun, because of the emotional high.
I'd say "enjoyment" is a better way to describe it, really. I enjoyed something, because it made me feel X, due to Y.
It can be all sorts of things. Skillfully jumping and navigating platforms in Quack Attack is fun. Tearing the beaks off penguins in Dwarf Fortress is fun, in a dark, absurd way. Realising you are utterly alone and hunted in Silent Hill is fun, because of the emotional high.
I'd say "enjoyment" is a better way to describe it, really. I enjoyed something, because it made me feel X, due to Y.
http://www.53-degrees.co.uk/images/Product%20images/projection.jpgTheBelgianGuy said:
I'm sure lots of people have explained the joke already, but..Father Time said:
Subjectivity in and of itself is not a valid defense for your opinions. All opinions are subjective, but some subjective opinions have more merit than others. The strength of your argumentation determines how much merit your opinion has, without argumentation it has no merit at all.
Thus, simply saying that your opinion shouldnot be judged because it is subjective in lieu of actually demonstrating its merit is the intellectual equivalent of masturbating in public. There's no purpose in your publicly expressing that opinion because your failure to actually argue it means it has no merit or relevance to anyone but you. The only purpose of expressing such an opinion is to gratify yourself, rather than to actually engage in conversation.
better question:TheBelgianGuy said:
remember when, even in joking, these last few strips weren't necessary for holding a civil conversation?
or better still
remember when gaming on the whole could go more then 10 minutes with out bitching about something?
didn't think so
