How Will Shepard Beat the Reapers? (Minor Mass Effect Spoilers)

[malkavianmadman]

well if i have anything to do with it shep will be wasting the human race BEFORE the reapers thus denying them their prize.

 

[retyopy]

No good ending... For a while. Then, bam, DLC ending.

 

[Alaster Angelo]

No good ending... For a while. Then, bam, DLC ending.

So... basically Fallout 3?

 

[Mr.logic]

I 'm fine with whatever ever method... as long as it's not:

a super weapon created by a long dead civilazation.

a rogue reaper.

a Deus Ex machina style bullcrap power that comes out of nowhere.

kill the king reaper, and they all stop.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

]Not jsut Large-ish. In ME2, it was explicitly called the largest fleet in the known galaxy. And given that some portion of the Quarian leadership thinks they actually have a chance against the Geth, I would think they have at least some combat capability..

I've only played the first game.
I keep meaning to play the second, but the use of actual ammo makes me not want to play it
it makes my whole Shep build counter-intuitive.

 

[Avatar Roku]

]Not jsut Large-ish. In ME2, it was explicitly called the largest fleet in the known galaxy. And given that some portion of the Quarian leadership thinks they actually have a chance against the Geth, I would think they have at least some combat capability..

I've only played the first game.
I keep meaning to play the second, but the use of actual ammo makes me not want to play it
it makes my whole Shep build counter-intuitive.

Ok, the ammo system is bad, and the main story (not the recruitment or loyalty missions, which make up 90% of the game) is really stupid, but the rest of the game is actually really good. Give it a shot.

 

[Supertegwyn]

]Not jsut Large-ish. In ME2, it was explicitly called the largest fleet in the known galaxy. And given that some portion of the Quarian leadership thinks they actually have a chance against the Geth, I would think they have at least some combat capability..

I've only played the first game.
I keep meaning to play the second, but the use of actual ammo makes me not want to play it
it makes my whole Shep build counter-intuitive.

Ok, the ammo system is bad, and the main story (not the recruitment or loyalty missions, which make up 90% of the game) is really stupid, but the rest of the game is actually really good. Give it a shot.

It's not that terrible. I play a complete soldier build and I never ran out of ammo, you just need to be careful and not waste shots. Not that hard.
The story is quite good, I thought it was the game's strongest point.

All to their own I suppose.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

True, he poured a lot of strength into Saren (which he had to do or Shep would have maintained control and Sovereign would have lost anyway)

Maintained control of what? All it had to do was interface with either the keepers or the Citadel itself and it would have all been over. The only thing holding it back was Saren. I know he wanted to kill Shepard but this is a machine we're talking about. It could have activated the Citadel in less than a milisecond.

but keep in mind, he attacked a small fraction of the fighting power of the galaxy and, at that, had surprise on his side.

A single Reaper and a few of its Geth Allies managed to destroy the fleet protecting the Citadel, the center of commerce and the seat of power for the Galactic Government, and most of the human fleet. In fact, the only reason it lost was because it was stupid enough to empower Saren. If it had kept its shields up it could have withstood as much punishment as it'd have liked.

Surprise was the most important part; he destroyed so much because he caught everyone but Shep with their pants down.

And they don't have that factor? The entire galaxy believes Sovereign was just a Geth ship and are making no preparations to defend against them. After Sovereign failed the Reapers had the relay at the edge of the galaxy they could have used to enter the galaxy or they could have simply flown into the Galaxy in less than two months. Either way, no matter the route they would have taken they could have reached the citadel in less than a day or two, what with them being speedy and all, attack it en masse and deactivate the Relays. Even better, they could have simply sent the signal using the extranet and be done with it before breakfast.

No matter how you look at it, Mass Effect 2 and even 1 are filled with plot holes.

 

[Kingsnake661]

She will find a big red button that says don't push and she will push it and all the reapers will become subservient and work at mcdonalds for the next 50k years.

Really I dont see anyway this is going to end other then finding a magic mcguffen and it somehow beating all the reapers, with the setup the 3rd game has. Really the game should be about organizing the races into a fleet and finding a way into deep space to kill most of them while they are still sleeping, have a few wake up before they are wiped out and have that be the epic final battle, where it takes most of the fleets to deal with a few reapers and one of those reapers is infiltrated and taken down by Shepard's team, while the others are either taken down by similar infiltration teams or blown to hell by dreadnoughts.

I think that is exactly what the game WILL be about. Think about the allies we have (possibly) been recruiting. The Krogan, the Quarians, the Geth, the Rachni. All of those but the Quarians are renowned for terrestrial combat prowess (good for boarding reapers, for example), and all of them but the Krogans are renowned for strong fleets (hell, the Quarians have the largest one in the known galaxy, and the Geth fleet that followed Saren was only about 5% of the total Geth strength). And that's to say nothing of what a you could do with the Citadel and Alliance Fleets when they fight the Reapers at full strength and while not surprised.

I bet Mass Effect 3 will mostly be spent making sure that those allies are at full strength. Convincing the Quarians and Geth to make peace (or choosing between them, which Keelah knows I don't want to do), convincing the Salarians to lift the Genophage, scouting the Reapers so that the big fleets are not taken by surprise, etc.

Few things to keep in mind.

1. We've come to find out, more or less, that not all reapers are the BIG, capital ships Sovereign was. Granted, there are prolly alot of them big ships, but in general, it's not a fleet of "Sovereigns" like it's been made out to be.

2. Sovereign was taken down, more or less, but one wing, or fleet of earth ships, not the whole earth navy, and what was left of a suprise attack on the citidal that started with them knocking out communations so they couldn't call for help. There were alot more reinforcments to be had, if they'd known they were under attack in the first place.

3. The reapers are burning ALOT of resorces and fuel to make the trip to the cidital. Not only did they have to come back from dark space, but once the alpha relay was blown, that added possible up to a years worth more FTL travel, which has to be taxing.

So i think there's a SLIGHT misconception as to how powerful the reaper fleet really is, IE, they aren't all Sovereigns, and are buring ALOT of resorces right now, and we aren't as WEAK as we seemed. It was a suprise attack, and a fraction of the galaxies full milatery might. A head on fight, with the WHOLE galaxie, as in, EVERYONE, might be more then the reapers can handle.

After all, all reapers invasions START with a sneak attack that cripples interstaller travel. where they can pick apart picemeal resistince one system at a time. That won't be the case this time. It's going to be a head on fight, after a long exidos, with a unitifed galaxie (once i'm done with them). Something they may well have NEVER faced before.

And of course, there may be a magic Maguffin. That can always happen to if the writers get lazy... >.>

On that subject, we've been told that there is one set piece in ME3 wherein a Thresher Maw fights a Reaper, so they really all better NOT be Sovereign's size, or else Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense OF Scale.

No, unfortinatly according to everything I have seen about the game so far, it starts out with the reapers invading and attacking earth and Shepard is able to escape and tries to round up allies to counter attack but each race is involved with its own stupid shit, like the quarians have decided to retake the homeworld.
This is the trailer.
If it wasn't for the space ships you would think it was a cod clone.
So ME3 has the reapers already here and that should be bad ending, I mean unless they retcon the reapers to suck, I don't see how they are saving earth.

According to the Game Informer article on ME3 from a few months ago, part of the game involves solving a conflict between the Salarians and the Krogan (that was just one example given), which to me smacks of gathering allies in the sense of entire armies and fleets, not just his squad. Also keep in mind, if the events of ME2 are any indication, the Reapers will want live humans, so they'll probably be on Earth for a while after actually winning the battle there. That extends the time frame immensely.

As I see it, Shep is at Earth answering for the events of Arrival, and then the Reapers invade. Act 1 will be fighting to get off Earth. Act 2 (i.e, the Act in every Bioware game where you choose where to go) will be gathering Armies and Fleets of allies (by, for example, convincing the Salarians to lift the Genophage, or making peace between the Geth and Quarians [or helping one side win]), that sort of thing. Then Act 3 will be taking all of your allies and either trying to take back Earth or else attacking wherever the Reapers are at that point.

Which is why the plot will be bad or the reapers will have to be retconned to hell since so far its been established that we are using tech that they control, mainly the gates which are the key to intergalactic travel, the only one they don't control is that lil one that links the promethium world to the citadel, all they need to do is either shut down the gate to sol, station a fleet outside the gate so they can nuke anything that comes though or just blow or just blow up the gate and then nothing is getting though. Not to mention that the reapers have been doing this awhile so they know pretty much how the tech of the races will work and where species will be and since they have spies they will even know fleet size and such, really the only reason this invasion is different is because they weren't woken up by the keepers since the promethians managed to stop them from being able to send a message this time.
The only plot that really would make sense is to attack them in deep space, any other way of fighting them seems doomed, without the plot going wacky.

I think you misunderstood. Talk to Vigil on Ilos again. They only controlled all the Relays in the other invasions because they took over the Citadel first thing, and the Citadel gave them that control (along with census records and such). Since you stopped them from using the Citadel Relay, they are at a MASSIVE disadvantage, since they cannot control our fleet movements anymore. Add to that the fact that, for the first time ever, there will be an entire galaxy already aware of them and amassed to fight them and it won't even take a retcon.

Since they shut down the relays in the past, they only ever had to fight small forces at once (i.e, whatever forces would have been stationed at individual systems). Moreover, they had records of which fleets were where, so they could always attack in overwhelming strength. Their control of the Citadel was always their single largest advantage, and without that, they're just a fleet (possibly an enormous one, but we don't really know) of very tough ships; a hard target, to be sure, but we have giant fleets too.

Ehh, not exactly, I mean if they need the Citadel to control the relays then they should really attack the citadel first, if they no longer have way to control the relays then they could either just blockade the relay or just destroy it. I mean they might not have control over them but they still know exactly where a counter attack will come from and its not like they are really bound by time, I mean they could just knock out a relay, wipe out the system then travel though standard space to the next and it would be almost impossible to know where they would hit next.

Also we aren't sure how unified the galaxy is against them, I mean assuming the council or whatever was telling the truth at the start of ME2, then they still don't really believe that the reapers are out there. I'm going to assume that they don't really believe the reaper threat since you have to help the races though their drama before they help you, if they knew there was a giant intergalactic threat coming then they probably wouldn't be doing stupid shit right before it.

While you are right that they could just blow up a mass relay and destroy a the systems in the area there are a few problems with them doing that. The reapers most likely do not have an infinite source of energy and just traveling all the way out from dark space probably ate up much of their energy. Based on what vigil said the reapers strip planets of their natural resources probably because they need it for fuel/energy.

If they blow up the mass relays along with all the star systems and their life forms then the Reapers lose valuable resources and the means to travel over a great distance without using up too much energy. It should also be noted that the mass relays are a vital part of the Reaper's technology that allowed the growth and expansion of multiple civilizations, such as the Protheans, to reach the point where the Reapers would harvest them.

While the reapers could attack the citadel directly they would probably not have the luxury of using the mass relays and therefore would have to spend much time and energy to get there which they may not have. As a result they would have to stop at nearby planets to harvest them in order to refuel.

And true, the galaxy isn't exactly united at the moment, hell there is basically a war brewing between the humans and batarians. Still once the massive reaper fleet starts blowing shit up maybe the galaxy will decide to unite against a common enemy, as long as the reapers aren't on the Citadel's doorstep by then.

It really doesn't matter how united anyone is if the reapers manage to take control of the gates, since they could just shut down all fast interstellar travel and pick apart races one by one, really the stupidest thing they could do is announce their presents by attacking a home world and not going for the lynch-pin at the start. But if energy is a worry they could just go to systems without gates and harvest as much as they like, I mean I'm assuming that's how they got back into the galaxy anyway since the gate they used, the citadel wasn't opened.... really why are they able to attack earth at all, I mean shouldn't it take them at least 200 years to get back into the galaxy and by then their Shepard problem has already solved itself.

But they can't just take control of the lynch pin yet because the Alpha Relay was destroyed. It seems, judging by our in-game galaxy map (which, being fair, is lacking in detail) that the Local Cluster (in which Earth is) is the closest to the one where the Alpha Relay was. They're gonna have to go through Sol if they want to get to the Citadel in a timely manner (and possibly before running out of fuel), so they may as well kill two birds with one stone and take out Earth at the same time.

As for your other point, it seems that the Reapers are really fucking fast, even compared to normal ships (which travel at roughly 4000 times the speed of light when going FTL between systems without Mass Relays). I mean, in 2 years, they went from waaaaaaaay out in Dark Space to the Outer Rim, which means they can really book it. Obviously Relays are faster, but their normal FTL (wasteful of resources as it probably is) can still get the job done.

However, if given a choice between a Relay or none, they are obviously going to choose a Relay. I bet FTL for them is very wasteful and, comparatively fast as their FTL is, it's still gonna take them months if not years to go from the system which formerly housed the Alpha Relay to the Citadel.

If they can get to earth then they can go to any system without a gate that they want to, to refuel, even if they have to go to earth its stupid to attack it, if they need the local cluster gate then they should just quickly use the gate to get to the citadel, hanging around and destroying earth with out securing or destroying the gate is very stupid, the last thing they would want is to let everyone know they are there.

Friend... they aren't just going to "sneak" by... it's an armadia of huge, sentient space ships, and while there main goal i'm sure is to get to the citidal and lock it down, don't forget that thanks to Shepards bad@ssery they now consider the human race to be the most dangerious of all the races in the current galaxie. Taking them off guard and out asap is a smart tactical move.

Not to mention the fact your really taking into account the fuel they have burnt, would have to still burn to get to the cidital undetected if they forwent the gates, and the fact that the "fuel" they need may well not be found in just any system. They seem to harvest advanced civilations for a reason. And empty system may not have what they need, esspecially for a fleet. Sure, attacking earth might not be the "best" tactical decession they can make, the citidal would be, but, they very well may not have a choice, and this is the best they can do.

This isn't there Plan A attack. We thawarted that. And Plan B and C too. This is plan D, and it's never as good as plan A. LOL.

 

[Kingsnake661]

True, he poured a lot of strength into Saren (which he had to do or Shep would have maintained control and Sovereign would have lost anyway)

Maintained control of what? All it had to do was interface with either the keepers or the Citadel itself and it would have all been over. The only thing holding it back was Saren. I know he wanted to kill Shepard but this is a machine we're talking about. It could have activated the Citadel in less than a milisecond.

but keep in mind, he attacked a small fraction of the fighting power of the galaxy and, at that, had surprise on his side.

A single Reaper and a few of its Geth Allies managed to destroy the fleet protecting the Citadel, the center of commerce and the seat of power for the Galactic Government, and most of the human fleet. In fact, the only reason it lost was because it was stupid enough to empower Saren. If it had kept its shields up it could have withstood as much punishment as it'd have liked.

Surprise was the most important part; he destroyed so much because he caught everyone but Shep with their pants down.

And they don't have that factor? The entire galaxy believes Sovereign was just a Geth ship and are making no preparations to defend against them. After Sovereign failed the Reapers had the relay at the edge of the galaxy they could have used to enter the galaxy or they could have simply flown into the Galaxy in less than two months. Either way, no matter the route they would have taken they could have reached the citadel in less than a day or two, what with them being speedy and all, attack it en masse and deactivate the Relays. Even better, they could have simply sent the signal using the extranet and be done with it before breakfast.

No matter how you look at it, Mass Effect 2 and even 1 are filled with plot holes.

The reaper was pluged into the citidal for a while before Shepard and crew ever made it to Sevreigen. He was more or less alone, pluged in, and still couldn't just "take over" on a whim. If it were simple to hack the keeper and citidal it'd have been DONE long before the final battle. That kind of tells you a few things. The most importent of that being that just getting to the citidal doesn't = winning.

The citidal's fleet wasn't at full strenght as i recall, they'd sent alot of ships to guard a few key relays to stop Sarion's invasion, IIRC. (I'm a bit fusy on this) And besides, even if it was, it was a suprise attack from a force more powerful then they'd ever encournted. And thanks to the coundiut, comunations were down and they couldn't call for help.

And yeah, they'll have the element of suprise for earths attack, but not after. Shepard gets away, and rallies the troops. And he'll have undisputable proof... a planet burning and reapers attacking, to get support. At which point in time, the reapers lose the suprise factor and have to face a galaxie head on, in a less then ideal state from them (fuel burned and facing resistince the likes of which they'd never prolly seen before.) And they'll STILL have the advantage BECAUSE of how powerful they are. But, they won't nessessirly be unbeatable, and that is why i think the bioware guys can give us a realistic ending that doesn't dive into independence day logic. It's doable.

 

[Joccaren]

In a big ass battle. Possibly lead by the Normandy, possibly with the Normandy flying off and doing something whilst the Reapers are distracted. Either way, as it stands, You will gather as many races as you can to fight the Reapers: Rachni, Krogan, Salarian, Asari, Turian, Geth, Possibly a fleet of ships under some kind of Terminous System Control, Whatever forces the Alliance has left, possibly the Yahg, Maybe the Batarians, ect.
That is a force to be reckoned with, even for the Reapers. The Rachni almost conquered that Galaxy. They were stopped by the Krogan, who then proceeded to try and conquer the Galaxy. They were stopped by the Salarians. The Geth invaded our space with a force that could be as little as 3% of their total forces, let alone being able to build more very quickly and deploy them. They are, IMO the largest fleet in the unknown Galaxy, as well as also being artificial constructs. They can deal a lot of damage to the Reapers. The Quarians have the largest fleet in the KNOWN Galaxy, that will deal some damage to the Reapers. The Destiny Ascension is still alive in my game. It is half the size of Sovereign, and as we know, in ME, size means firepower. The council fleet will likely be on your side, that means Salarians, Turians and Asari. Any Alliance ships out of the Sol system will be regrouping for an attack, and those forces may be more than most think; we are now one of the Council Races. The Yahg are strong, we know that, if they were uplifted like the Krogan were, they could be a formidable ally. Assuming they decide to fight for Shepard. The Batarian Hedgemony may come to fight the Reapers, if convinced to by Shepard. I don't doubt it will be a massive Paragon/Renegade dialogue choice to do it, if it is possible, but I'm not seeing them come to Earth's aid, more to help stop their own demise by the attack of the Reapers.

We have a lot of forces possibly at our disposal. If we utilise them all against an already weakened Reaper fleet, There is a good chance we'll come out on top.

Remember, one of the main reasons the Reapers were able to wipe out the Protheans was because nobody really knew what was going on. Mass Relays were shut down, the Citadel was conquered, surprise attacks on small, Isolated portions of any military the Protheans might have had. The Reapers had a massive advantage. On relatively equal footing vs an entire Galaxy worth of ships, we may just win this.

I personally see Dark Matter as coming in as something like destroying Sol, or as a part of one of the missions to get an ally on your team. I have a feeling non-perfect enders may be left with the option of Destroying Sol and Earth, and therefore most of the Human race, to stop the Reapers, those even worse off will just lose the battle utterly, and the perfectionists who end up with everything right will be able to have everyone engage the Reapers in a coordinated attack and send them running back to Darkspace, at the very least.

Massive Snip

One major problem with attacking the Citadel that seems to have been missed: It can close itself into a nigh-on invulnerable shell when under attack. Even against Reapers I'll bet that will last long enough for fleets to arrive and attack them. The Citadel now would be their last target to attack IMO. Its defences are just too great to overcome at the moment. Take down one or two civilisations, then hit the citadel might work, but there would still be a tough fight. Taking each race out conventionally would be the best bet, defeat them one by one then hit the Citadel, or let those on it rot away with limited food.

And for the 'Use conventional travel and hit wherever you want' argument: That gives even more time to Shepard to assemble allies. Once those allies are assembled, they will be ready to attack the Reapers the second they appear anywhere, and with Mass Relays, they can get to them very quickly. Without their original surprise attack, the Reapers are in a fair bit of trouble. They have the strength to take on a lot of fleets, but we have enough fleets that we might just beet them. It will likely all depend on how prepared your galaxy is to fight them.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

The reaper was pluged into the citidal for a while before Shepard and crew ever made it to Sevreigen. He was more or less alone, pluged in, and still couldn't just "take over" on a whim. If it were simple to hack the keeper and citidal it'd have been DONE long before the final battle. That kind of tells you a few things. The most importent of that being that just getting to the citidal doesn't = winning.

That's actually a plot hole.

The citidal's fleet wasn't at full strenght as i recall, they'd sent alot of ships to guard a few key relays to stop Sarion's invasion, IIRC. (I'm a bit fusy on this) And besides, even if it was, it was a suprise attack from a force more powerful then they'd ever encournted. And thanks to the coundiut, comunations were down and they couldn't call for help.

They did call the fleet stationed at Arcturus did they not? The Citadel Fleet WAS at its full strength and was completely obliterated. The fleet from Arcturus would have faced the same fate if it was not for Sovereign's stupidity.

And yeah, they'll have the element of suprise for earths attack, but not after. Shepard gets away, and rallies the troops. And he'll have undisputable proof... a planet burning and reapers attacking, to get support..

These are machines that can travel faster than the speed of light. They can also utilize the relays. There's no reason for them to attack Earth when there's a relay in the Sol system leading right to the barely defended Citadel. Plus, there's probably thousands of Reapers. Even if the galactic community was prepared to face the Reapers head-on they'd still lose. In the first game, two fleets struggled to bring down a Reaper's SHIELDS. Those were just its SHIELDS. Sovereign along with a few geth managed to decimate two whole fleets and you're telling me the galaxy stands a chance against an entire army of those things?

But, they won't nessessirly be unbeatable, and that is why i think the bioware guys can give us a realistic ending that doesn't dive into independence day logic. It's doable.

No it's not. The Reapers are hyper-intelligent machines with shields and armour more powerful than everything the galactic community has to offer and they've been wiping off civilizations for millions of not billions of years. If Bioware wants at least a marginally realistic ending then they HAVE to end this game on a grim note. There are enough plot holes as it is. We don't need more.

 

[putowtin]

How do you think the Reapers will be defeated, considering one of them managed to demolish half a fleet before going down?

The Reaper's are after the same thing that everyone else in Mass Effect seems to be after, some lovin' with Shepherd!
I'm seeing a romantic meal for two, candles, wine, the whole shebang. Then the scene goes black and the next day Shepherd gets a lovely bunch of flowers and a "thank you for a wonderful night, but I can never see you again cause I'm returning to hibination for the next fifty thousand years. xxx Harbinger"

 

[Avatar Roku]

Maintained control of what? All it had to do was interface with either the keepers or the Citadel itself and it would have all been over. The only thing holding it back was Saren. I know he wanted to kill Shepard but this is a machine we're talking about. It could have activated the Citadel in less than a milisecond.

Nope. The entire point of the plot of ME1 is that Sovereign contacting the Keepers didn't work because of the Protheans. Hell, if the Reapers really are responsible for the Rachni Wars, it's possible that Sovereign tried to send the signal to them centuries ago. By the end, he was directly hacking into the Citadel...and he was failing because Shep had Vigil's program. Shep had complete control of the Citadel at the end (hence the fact that the Citadel arms and the Mass Relay behind which the Alliance was suddenly opened and activated, respectively). Sovereign HAD to kill Shep or the battle was lost, no matter what happened to the fleets.

A single Reaper and a few of its Geth Allies managed to destroy the fleet protecting the Citadel, the center of commerce and the seat of power for the Galactic Government, and most of the human fleet. In fact, the only reason it lost was because it was stupid enough to empower Saren. If it had kept its shields up it could have withstood as much punishment as it'd have liked.

Again, it could have withstood punishment, but still lost the battle because he could not activate the Citadel Relay.

But that's besides the point for this one. Point is, we don't know how powerful Sovereign's shields were or how much empowering Saren changed that, but my guess would be that, even without empowering Saren, he would be tough, but not invincible. An entire fleet pouring fire onto it would have to make a dent at some point.

This point was made better by KingSnake, so I'll just let it go now.

And they don't have that factor? The entire galaxy believes Sovereign was just a Geth ship and are making no preparations to defend against them. After Sovereign failed the Reapers had the relay at the edge of the galaxy they could have used to enter the galaxy or they could have simply flown into the Galaxy in less than two months. Either way, no matter the route they would have taken they could have reached the citadel in less than a day or two, what with them being speedy and all, attack it en masse and deactivate the Relays.

Again, argued better by KingSnake. Please see his post.

Even better, they could have simply sent the signal using the extranet and be done with it before breakfast.

No they couldn't. Talk to Vigil again, the Protheans on Ilos went back to the Citadel using the Conduit and modified the Keepers so that the signal would not work. That was why the whole plot of ME1 was even necessary.

 

[Vankraken]

Nuke them from Orbit. Any other way is just overly complicated and prone to failure.

 

[Avatar Roku]

That's actually a plot hole.

No it isn't. See my above point about the Protheans on Ilos.

They did call the fleet stationed at Arcturus did they not? The Citadel Fleet WAS at its full strength and was completely obliterated. The fleet from Arcturus would have faced the same fate if it was not for Sovereign's stupidity.

They may have been able to CALL the other parts of their fleets stationed at other Mass Relays, but Sovereign shut the Relays down so they couldn't actually get through. Hence, the fleet actually at the Citadel was severely weakened.

These are machines that can travel faster than the speed of light. They can also utilize the relays. There's no reason for them to attack Earth when there's a relay in the Sol system leading right to the barely defended Citadel. Plus, there's probably thousands of Reapers. Even if the galactic community was prepared to face the Reapers head-on they'd still lose. In the first game, two fleets struggled to bring down a Reaper's SHIELDS. Those were just its SHIELDS. Sovereign along with a few geth managed to decimate two whole fleets and you're telling me the galaxy stands a chance against an entire army of those things?

Normal ships can travel roughly 4000 times the speed of light. They can also use Mass Relays. That is not an advantage for the Reapers.

As for the "two fleets barely brought down his shields" argument, bear in mind that one of the biggest developments as of ME3 is the fact that Shep may (depending on player actions) have the Migrant Fleet, the Geth, and the Rachni on his side. Those are 3 factions with MASSIVE fleets (as in, Migrant Fleet is the biggest in the known galaxy, the Geth are possibly even BIGGER, and the Rachni are unknown, but they have to have something), all 3 of which are known primarily FOR those fleets. That is a HUUUGE step up.

No it's not. The Reapers are hyper-intelligent machines with shields and armour more powerful than everything the galactic community has to offer and they've been wiping off civilizations for millions of not billions of years. If Bioware wants at least a marginally realistic ending then they HAVE to end this game on a grim note. There are enough plot holes as it is. We don't need more.

They've been wiping out civilizations for so long because they had the advantage of the Citadel Relay, which allowed them to shut down every other Relay and fight system by system. They have never had to fight any sort of large, unified force before. Surprise was their biggest advantage, without that they are still tough (still a massive fleet of Dreadnoughts, after all), but nowhere near invincible.

 

[Kingsnake661]

The reaper was pluged into the citidal for a while before Shepard and crew ever made it to Sevreigen. He was more or less alone, pluged in, and still couldn't just "take over" on a whim. If it were simple to hack the keeper and citidal it'd have been DONE long before the final battle. That kind of tells you a few things. The most importent of that being that just getting to the citidal doesn't = winning.

That's actually a plot hole.

The citidal's fleet wasn't at full strenght as i recall, they'd sent alot of ships to guard a few key relays to stop Sarion's invasion, IIRC. (I'm a bit fusy on this) And besides, even if it was, it was a suprise attack from a force more powerful then they'd ever encournted. And thanks to the coundiut, comunations were down and they couldn't call for help.

They did call the fleet stationed at Arcturus did they not? The Citadel Fleet WAS at its full strength and was completely obliterated. The fleet from Arcturus would have faced the same fate if it was not for Sovereign's stupidity.

And yeah, they'll have the element of suprise for earths attack, but not after. Shepard gets away, and rallies the troops. And he'll have undisputable proof... a planet burning and reapers attacking, to get support..

These are machines that can travel faster than the speed of light. They can also utilize the relays. There's no reason for them to attack Earth when there's a relay in the Sol system leading right to the barely defended Citadel. Plus, there's probably thousands of Reapers. Even if the galactic community was prepared to face the Reapers head-on they'd still lose. In the first game, two fleets struggled to bring down a Reaper's SHIELDS. Those were just its SHIELDS. Sovereign along with a few geth managed to decimate two whole fleets and you're telling me the galaxy stands a chance against an entire army of those things?

But, they won't nessessirly be unbeatable, and that is why i think the bioware guys can give us a realistic ending that doesn't dive into independence day logic. It's doable.

No it's not. The Reapers are hyper-intelligent machines with shields and armour more powerful than everything the galactic community has to offer and they've been wiping off civilizations for millions of not billions of years. If Bioware wants at least a marginally realistic ending then they HAVE to end this game on a grim note. There are enough plot holes as it is. We don't need more.

Your assuming it's a plot hole. It MIGHT be. It might NOT. The plot isn't finished yet. Your assuming the reapers should just be able to take over the tech, why? Because they said they created it? And you belived them because? The fact he couldn't just take over may well not be a plot hole but a clue.

The human fleet was pulled together by Joker, and the normandy, how were still left behind at Illos. The call for help came from them, not the cidital. Notice the Asari was suprided to see the humans.

Why attack earth? Well, fight and formost there was going to be fight anyways. They couldn't just SNEAK past earth and use the realy, we prolly have it guarded. Moving Thousands of ships through will take time, and, like i said before, Shepard has shown the reapers who dangerious earthlings can BE, so maybe a preempive strike on earth while on the way to the cidial would make since. They are already there, may as well take us up. Heck, if they do it fast enought we might not be able to warn anyone else. To bad Shepard was there and gets away. We don't KNOW what the reapers a doing yet outside of attacking earth. We'll find out in ME3. My moneys on trying to get to the citidal. But if it's closed up, they might not be able too.

And rememeber, they whole reaper fleet isn't filled with Severigen type ships. This has been confirmed by bioware and you can SEE it yourself in some of the videos they've posted. More then likely Severigen was a capital ship, one of there more powerful left behind to ensure there plan/survivle. You don't leave a job like that to anyone except your best man. The fleet that's coming is far more powerful then anything the galaxie has ever faced, and thats why this is going to be a brutel, destructive war, but they AREN'T as powerful as you may be thinking they are. Not to mention we don't KNOW what the effect of the long trip they took will have on them.

I mean, think about it. There plan A was to use the citidal for a quick cupdagras. That faild. Plan B was to build a new reaper, in our galaxie, more then likely to try a run at the citidal again. That faild. Plan C was to use the closest realy possible, a special relay that could get them stright to the citidal. It was there on purpose to give them a short cut. They accually using there FTL to get to known space was a last resort, prolly for a REASON. A reason that we can exploit.

 

[Avatar Roku]

Your assuming it's a plot hole. It MIGHT be. It might NOT. The plot isn't finished yet. Your assuming the reapers should just be able to take over the tech, why? Because they said they created it? And you belived them because? The fact he couldn't just take over may well not be a plot hole but a clue.

Not even a plot hole; we are explicitly told why this is the case by Vigil.

The human fleet was pulled together by Joker, and the normandy, how were still left behind at Illos. The call for help came from them, not the cidital. Notice the Asari was suprided to see the humans.

Good catch, that had not occurred to me.

Why attack earth? Well, fight and formost there was going to be fight anyways. They couldn't just SNEAK past earth and use the realy, we prolly have it guarded. Moving Thousands of ships through will take time, and, like i said before, Shepard has shown the reapers who dangerious earthlings can BE, so maybe a preempive strike on earth while on the way to the cidial would make since. They are already there, may as well take us up. Heck, if they do it fast enought we might not be able to warn anyone else. To bad Shepard was there and gets away. We don't KNOW what the reapers a doing yet outside of attacking earth. We'll find out in ME3. My moneys on trying to get to the citidal. But if it's closed up, they might not be able too.

And rememeber, they whole reaper fleet isn't filled with Severigen type ships. This has been confirmed by bioware and you can SEE it yourself in some of the videos they've posted. More then likely Severigen was a capital ship, one of there more powerful left behind to ensure there plan/survivle. You don't leave a job like that to anyone except your best man. The fleet that's coming is far more powerful then anything the galaxie has ever faced, and thats why this is going to be a brutel, destructive war, but they AREN'T as powerful as you may be thinking they are. Not to mention we don't KNOW what the effect of the long trip they took will have on them.

I mean, think about it. There plan A was to use the citidal for a quick cupdagras. That faild. Plan B was to build a new reaper, in our galaxie, more then likely to try a run at the citidal again. That faild. Plan C was to use the closest realy possible, a special relay that could get them stright to the citidal. It was there on purpose to give them a short cut. They accually using there FTL to get to known space was a last resort, prolly for a REASON. A reason that we can exploit.

All very good points, nicely done.