How would you change the Force Awakens?

[Qizx]

Many things. I agree with most of what you said, but I'll boil it down to: Make every less good at everything. Rey managing to be a force god/plain old god. Finn was somehow also able to not immediately die to Kylo in a straight up saber fight (somehow doubt he had saber training). I didn't feel there was much weight, you knew the good guys would do so well. Only tragedy was Han dying and that feels token, almost like it HAD to happen just so something did.

BIGGEST ANNOYANCE: The fucking death planet. Who. The. Fuck. Thought. It. Was. Smart.

Seriously, in this universe there were already 2 super sized destroyers that were both easily destroyed (despite the many bothans). Stop building enormous unstable explody balls. (On that note, no one can tell me the planet didn't have an emergency vent to prevent this very thing from happening?

 

[Thunderous Cacophony]

I don't know if I'd call Luke "excellent." Competent, especially since there was no indication of him having training, but flying in a straight line, turning, and not getting shot down don't make for "excellent" the way stunting the Falcon through the wreck of a star destroyer does.

He mentions he has training, and specifically that he used to fly around hunting animals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=569x3TtmExo

The original movie was going to use the T-16 ( this thing) as Luke's transport around Tatooine, to showcase his flying skills ahead of time, but they couldn't finish the prop in time for filming so they used the speeder. It's at least a bit better handled than having someone admit to having never flown before, and that the Falcon is huge and designed to be flown by two pilots, before flawlessly maneuvering through piles of wreckage and outflying multiple combat pilots in fighter craft.

 

[hermes]

I would remove the "stop a laser in midair with the force" at the beginning of the movie. It looked cool on the screen, but it made no sense in the progression of the movies, and made Kylo Ren look like a far more formidable character than they ended up with (I know this was intentional, doesn't make it less incongruent thought...) I liked the reading that he was a whinny boy with still much to learn and barely a grasp of the true power of the force, but it is not the same character of the first 10 minutes of the movie. I have no problem with the director/producer changing the dial of the force from movie to movie to keep their space wizards updated, but don't do it between scenes.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

She definitely feels like some sort of Mary Sue in the sense that she's so diplomatic, automatically makes friends with whomever she wants and is good at whatever impresses others. She's so... boring.

You know what, i stand corrected. I think my pet peeve with Rey lies not within her abilities, as much as how other characters interact with her. Luke didn't have much of a cred in the beginning, he was generaly treated as a little shit that has no idea about anything outside his little farm. If other characters wouldn't treat our heroine like a rey of sunshine, but more like a poor scrub from a desert planet, bicker with her like the "old" New Hope crew used to among them, i think it would result in a bit more fleshed out character.

But wait there's more:
You remember that scene, with two stormtroopers reacting to Kylo's shit fit?

Spoiler

[/spoiler] Yeah, i chuckled at it too.
Problem is, with scenes like this it's hard for audience to perceive Ren as a viable threat. Why should they, if director himself lampshades how funny his angry meltdowns are? Comedy is achieved, but the sense of danger is lost.

Also, not my idea, but someone suggested that TR-8R should be replaced with Phasma.

 

[happyninja42]

But wait there's more:
You remember that scene, with two stormtroopers reacting to Kylo's shit fit?

Spoiler

[/spoiler] Yeah, i chuckled at it too.
Problem is, with scenes like this it's hard for audience to perceive Ren as a viable threat. Why should they, if director himself lampshades how funny his angry meltdowns are? Comedy is achieved, but the sense of danger is lost.[/QUOTE]

I disagree that his menace is lost, I think he's just a different flavor of menace. He's the "unhinged teenager with a chip on his shoulder" He's not the "cold calculating terror" that is Darth Vader. He's the "I'm going to do something entirely unpredictable and reckless" in a fit of hormonal rage...that also happens to be fueled by a supernatural power of pure evil, and I can choke a bastard at 40 yards, or cut them up with a plasma sword. I think he's genuinely menacing, but it's just a different type of menace.

OT: I would include bits of information that were apparently put into some of the novels, that would make Rey's list of abilities make more sense. Like apparently they explain fairly well why she can fly ships as well as she can...but only in the book. If I have to do outside research for your movie to make sense, then you've made some errors in filmmaking along the way. I wouldn't have R2 turn on when he did, as that was so blatantly plot device convenient. I would have Leia hug Chewie after Han's death, because I (and apparently JJ himself) feel that the two of them would have more connection when it comes to grieving over Han, than a girl who barely knew him for like a week at best.

I would remove Finn's "Whoo! Now that's a badass pilot!" comment after watching Po do his run. Yes Finn, we know, we saw it too, no need to explain it to the audience so obviously.

I would edit down the final shot of Rey and Luke on the island, as I think they held the shot too long, to the point that it looked kind of goofy with Rey's expression. And with her just standing there, arm out. Any normal pair of people would've started talking or moving by that point.

I would remove that scene with the alien thingies on Han's ship. Or at least, I would remove the "run from the CGI aliens!" portion of it. The bit with the 2 rival groups showing up, both wanting Han for different reasons, establishing his "scoundrel" ways was quite funny and felt fitting. Switching to the aliens was a bad call. I think it would've been better to just have them running away from the gangs, and having Han tricking them to shoot at each other while they escape in the Falcon, leaving the two groups in the water.

Other than that, not much really. I didn't have much of a problem with the movie as it was, aside from a few bits here and there that could be improved, just for overall narrative cohesion. But for the most part, I liked it just fine.

 

[MrCalavera_v1legacy]

But wait there's more:
You remember that scene, with two stormtroopers reacting to Kylo's shit fit?

Spoiler

[/spoiler] Yeah, i chuckled at it too.
Problem is, with scenes like this it's hard for audience to perceive Ren as a viable threat. Why should they, if director himself lampshades how funny his angry meltdowns are? Comedy is achieved, but the sense of danger is lost.[/QUOTE]

I disagree that his menace is lost, I think he's just a different flavor of menace. He's the "unhinged teenager with a chip on his shoulder" He's not the "cold calculating terror" that is Darth Vader. He's the "I'm going to do something entirely unpredictable and reckless" in a fit of hormonal rage...that also happens to be fueled by a supernatural power of pure evil, and I can choke a bastard at 40 yards, or cut them up with a plasma sword. I think he's genuinely menacing, but it's just a different type of menace.[/quote]
Well, i was thinking more about cutting out those two stormtroopers, rather than entire Ren's tantrum. Still, i think the way he vents his anger should be handled in a different more serious way, than just trashing some equipment. While we compare him to Vader: It's like in that one scene, when he chokes his subordinate, writer would decide that he should just force-flip a conference table instead.

 

[happyninja42]

But wait there's more:
You remember that scene, with two stormtroopers reacting to Kylo's shit fit?

Spoiler

[/spoiler] Yeah, i chuckled at it too.
Problem is, with scenes like this it's hard for audience to perceive Ren as a viable threat. Why should they, if director himself lampshades how funny his angry meltdowns are? Comedy is achieved, but the sense of danger is lost.[/QUOTE]

I disagree that his menace is lost, I think he's just a different flavor of menace. He's the "unhinged teenager with a chip on his shoulder" He's not the "cold calculating terror" that is Darth Vader. He's the "I'm going to do something entirely unpredictable and reckless" in a fit of hormonal rage...that also happens to be fueled by a supernatural power of pure evil, and I can choke a bastard at 40 yards, or cut them up with a plasma sword. I think he's genuinely menacing, but it's just a different type of menace.[/quote]
Well, i was thinking more about cutting out those two stormtroopers, rather than entire Ren's tantrum. Still, i think the way he vents his anger should be handled in a different more serious way, than just trashing some equipment. While we compare him to Vader: It's like in that one scene, when he chokes his subordinate, writer would decide that he should just force-flip a conference table instead.[/quote]

Well, see I think that was on purpose. Look at it from the developers side. "Ok, we need a new Darth Vader!" "...we can't possibly actually make someone better than Darth Vader. Darth Vader is the litmus test by which all Star Wars badguys are measured, and none of them have measured up yet in comparison." "ok...so, let's make that part of his concept. He WANTS to be bad like Vader, but knows he can never live up to that ideal." And so they ran with that. Personally I liked that approach. I don't know, to me, he reminds me of the character from American Psycho. Yeah, he was played for laughs a lot, but he still might come at you naked, bloody, and carrying a chainsaw. He's impulsive, no restraint at all, and prone to violent outbursts, fueled by his own insecurities and the Dark Side. Yeah, he tends to trash equipment rather than personnel, but again, I felt that was a conscious choice, to differentiate him from Vader. Because you never know when he might stop holding back, and just force choke a *****. And seeing what happens with him at the end, I'm sure he's going to be even more unstable, and more violently prone to lashing out in Ep. 8.

I mean, I can understand why someone might not like him as a villain, or at least how they added the comedy to those scenes, but for me personally, having the comedy injected into those moments, didn't lessen his menace to me. It just seemed to make him more unpredictable. Like when he trashed that panel when given the report about the escapees, and that flunky is petrified. And he just calmly asks "Is there anything else?" Making you think he's got it out of his system, but nope! He grabs the guy by the throat as soon as he hears more bad news. While I found it funny, it still conveyed how totally unhinged he is, and how he could go from making a slight joke at you, to possibly cutting your head off, without any warning whatsoever.

 

[axlryder]

What would I change? Make it so that Rey can do everything. Because everyone complains what a Mary Sue she is? I'll show them a REAL Mary Sue.

You know, stating that you'd make her even more of a Mary Sue doesn't change the fact that the canon version of the character is still a Mary Sue in literally every way save the fact she's an official character instead of a fan fiction derived one.

Yes literally, because that's what literally means. Literally mean without any exaggeration, and there are countless aspects of being Mary Sue that Rey doesn't even exist in the same star system as. Like I said, if people think Rey is as big of a Mary Sue as you can get, then they need to see a real one.

She's definitely one of the single worst offenders to ever make it to the big screen for a big budget movie, that's for sure. Sure, she could have been handled worst, but there are infinitely more ways she could have been handled better. I honestly hope they're using her to pull the rug from under us and Finn ends up being the protagonist of this new trilogy, because unless there are massive changes in the next two movies she's not going to be an interesting lead for this trilogy.

I'm sorry what? The shit that get pulled on a daily basis in big budget action movies, and Rey is worse than all of them? Really? Bigger than John Mcclane outlasting a harrier jet in a semi in Live Free or Die Hard? Bigger than all the nonsense Arnold gets up to in every action movie he's ever been in? Bigger than everything Tony Stark gets up to in the Avengers movies, including creating a revolutionary form of energy technology "in a cave with a box of scraps", inventing a new element in his garage, creating a suit of armor that can go toe to toe with the Incredible Hulk, miraculously curing Pepper of Extremis, and thats without getting into how he essentially created new life with Vision. Bigger than Anakin freaking Skywalker, the one who took out a warship at the age of ten despite never having flown in his entire life before? Because he was the chosen one and his power level was over 9000?

If Rey is honestly considered one of the biggest examples of what a Sue is I can't help but feel like people are being pretty freaking selective in who they label a Sue.

Haha, when I read his post I instantly thought "have you seen practically any Die Hard films"? That said, I think most people acknowledge that 90's action films are not written particularly well and many of those male protagonists are just insane fantasy projections (though Mclane did at least have relationship problems that weren't terribly romanticized).

I agree that these accusations are rarely made towards male characters (often when they probably should be) and the general public IS going to be more critical of female characters, but that doesn't really invalidate a lot of the complaints that would normally be considered reasonable if made about male characters (regardless of whether or not people would make those complaints based on people's natural acceptance of the status quo regarding male characters being overly competent). This goes doubly so when introducing new characters by a different writer into the biggest pre-existing film franchise and the whole thing sort of feels like a fan-fiction. (My characters are kind of like the original characters BUT BETTER, and all of the old characters like them the instant they meet them, and then they blow up a BIGGER death star!" etc.) Of course I think the writers were kind of going for a "passing the torch" vibe, but the whole thing did feel a little off.

I think people would be more forgiving of Rey's character if we had some kind of prior experience that would help us accept that Rey is naturally awesome (like how we knew Anakin would be DV). Of course I think we all just need to wait and see where this goes in the next couple of films before we really pass judgement on any characters. I think a lot of my personal issues with Rey could easily be nullified in the later films. Like if we find out she's the reincarnation of Yoda and, upon accepting this, has a shrek like transformation into her true form of Yodela. That one's free, Abrams.

As to the OP, lots of little scenes. Poe magically teleporting is a good one, the end with Chewie totally being disregarded, The whole bigger deathstar plotline and the republic being run by a bunch of idiots. Also, honestly, I'd have CGI'd Carrie Fisher's face to have...like...emotions. Seriously, I saw her in interviews and she looked way more emotive. Part of me thinks they actually TOLD her to act like that or they airbrushed each scene because hollywood is afraid of wrinkles. If that's true, fuck you hollywood, women age just like the rest of us. Jesus.

 

[Jute88]

I'd probably just make Chewie hug Leia at the end of the movie. Movies need more wookie hugs.

 

[Captain Chemosh]

Ren wouldn't be introduced until the very end, wouldn't be some petulant child, wouldn't be a total wuss. Snoke wouldn't have pulled a Palpatine and delegate via hologram, he'd have been there, on starkiller base, which would have also been defended much more heavily. Finn wouldn't have known about an exhaust port, period. Poe would have died in the crash, period. BB-8 wouldn't have existed, ever, at all. R2-D2 wouldn't wake up suddenly, C3PO would keep his cameo all the same. Oh, and Luke would have actually spoken. And before I forget, Rey, would be far more mentally traumatized by the events happening all around her including suddenly being awakened to the force.

 

[FirstNameLastName]

...

Don't fucking announce beforehand that BB-8 is a female droid and just let any magic with Artoo happen naturally.

...

The what now? A female droid? I just looked it up and apparently the droid was originally female, but that changed during production ... or something.
The thing that kind of weirds me out is idea of droids even having genders or sexes at all. It's not like they reproduce, and as far as gender goes I really don't see how that makes any sense. I understand that if we were to produce robots with true AI, we would likely build them in our own image and probably give them personalities and genders like us, but for a BB unit? It apparently doesn't even have the ability to speak in anything but beeps (don't even get me started on that) but it has a gender, somehow?

 

[DefunctTheory]

Finn wouldn't have known about an exhaust port, period.

Thermal oscillator.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

snip

You're not bothering to distinguish between beloved movies/ characters and their universally-panned sequels.

Fans loathed Live Free or Die Hard for the exact reason you're criticizing it: the appeal of the original Die Hard was the illusion of hardship. People remember that film for little sadistic obstacles like McClane being unlucky enough to have been convinced to walk around barefoot then needing to run over broken glass as they do for the "big damn hero" moments. And you keep bringing up Anakin when he was among the biggest point of contention among prequel haters. You're not even managing to maintain a consistent straw man, insisting male protagonists are universally-praised. They're not. They get cut more slack. I'll grant you that.

As for Rey, I think Smilomaniac nailed it. I can take or leave her being abilities. What rubs me wrong is how easily everyone becomes enamored with her. No one treats her like a grubby hick from a backwards planet like they did Luke. People squabbled with and/or dismissed Luke in A New Hope. Han and others need to constantly reaffirm how amazing Rey is. She can't even be handed a blaster during a firefight without it being framed as "OMG, you think I'm some helpless girl who can't take care of herself?" followed by Han, supposed grumpy smuggler, patting her on the head.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

In the original movie sure, but he gets up to some pretty stupid shit in Live Free or Die Hard. Ok, how was he manipulated in Commando? And True Lies? And Terminator? And End of Days? And Running Man? His other movies I give you, but that's a lot of movies with no manipulation. And I don't care how much of a weak immature child Anakin is, everything he does is pure bullshit and everything in the Phantom Menace is dedicating to building up what a precious little chosen one he is. Also squandering his genius? In Avengers they made it clear that he's turning Stark Industry into a front liner for clean energy. How is that squandering his genius?

I don't remember a single negative thing about Anakin in the Phantom Menace. And I honestly hear less Sue accusations directed at him than Rey. And if a lack of flaws is the mark of a Mary Sue, then Rey doesn't qualify. Because her balking at the pressure of taking up Luke's light saber caused her to be captured, leading to Han Solo being killed. Rey is responsible for Han Solo's death.

Butting in the argument, but one of the key elements in mary sue/gary stu is that they did not achieve their power in a sane way, so yeah Arnold Shwarzenegger does insane shit, but he is built like Arnold Shwarzenegger, and in Die Hard the character go through sequesently crazy stuff his badass-ness is logical, Tony Stark is pure suit and only in the last films seems to do things without the suit, and nobody liked Anakin, plus he is a huge subversion of the hero as he turns dark side.

Anyways, a good way to identify those characters is this (the 'How Can I Tell If My Character Is A Mary Sue?' not the chart in the start, and has a list of male Gary Stus):
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Uh. You need more than muscles to do the shit that Arnold does. Mowing down dozens upon dozens of soldiers in Commando while standing out in the open and not getting shot. His build helps that how? Logical? How is not getting blasted by a Harrier jet while you're in a semi-truck logical? Yes I know nobody liked Anakin, which makes it even more baffling that Rey gets more Sue accusations than him. Yes I know he turns to the dark side, but in Phantom menace he still saves the day, he's the good guy there, he hasn't done anything to hint turning to the dark side, he's just a little Stu. And he somehow gets less shit than Rey. "Tony Stark is pure shit." Uh. Does that mean you're saying that he's a Stu? That statement is...vague.

Yeah the thing with those tests is that people have pointed out to me in the past that characters considered extremely well written can fail them, such as Guts from Berserk or Morpheus from Sandman. When you get down to it, we need to decide who's a Sue or a Stu on our own and not rely on tests.

 

[Erttheking]

Snip

I don't really follow your logic here. There's a bit of a jump between not being an accountant and massacring dozens. Like a really big jump. I find it very head scratching is what, considering that people seem to focus more on his acting being annoying than anything else. I mean if people really hated him they would've pointed out everything that he had done. So you can't be a Stu if you're not good with people? *Looks at Dr. House* I would like to dispute that.

Gendered? Well I never claimed it was about gender, so I don't know why you bring it up. I was saying that Rey was getting disproportionate hate compared to other movie stars. Argue the points that I made, nothing else please.

That's the point. Someone put him through the Gary Stu test and he failed it miserably. The test is unreliable.

 

[Jeivar]

I wouldn't change it at all. I feel it is a fantastic, epic adventure movie. The MRA-types and the imdb message boards can to suck a fat one.

 

[Christian Neihart]

I'd add something along the lines "Please shut up about how Force Awakens is similar to A New Hope. You can't complain about the movies are similar when it's exactly what you wanted. Also don't pretend like SW isn't a stranger to bullshit."

 

[RaikuFA]

The music in the Cantina scene. It was shit. I know it'd be dumb to just make it the iconic one from ANH but they could have at least tried.

 

[happyninja42]

Anyways, the fact a character is capable does not make it su-ish and it's not a gender thing, you want male gary stus? You have Kirito and Eragon, want powerful female characters who are not called mary sues? Sarah Connor and Ripley. If so many people think Ray is a sue, then they might have a point.

Actually, just because a bunch of people believe something, doesn't mean it's correct. So an argument ad populas...populum(?) doesn't really help.

Snip

I don't really follow your logic here. There's a bit of a jump between not being an accountant and massacring dozens. Like a really big jump. I find it very head scratching is what, considering that people seem to focus more on his acting being annoying than anything else. I mean if people really hated him they would've pointed out everything that he had done. So you can't be a Stu if you're not good with people? *Looks at Dr. House* I would like to dispute that.

I've never heard House referred to as a Stu. Granted, I don't really follow the House fanbase, so take that as you will. But as I understand the somewhat nebulous traits of a Sue/Stu, one of the key traits, is that whatever negative traits they might have, never actually effect them in a negative way in the story. Bella is fatally clumsy, but never seems to actually have issues with it in a day to day way (like in a kitchen, where there are a million ways for a clumsy person to injure themselves). She's described as socially awkward and mousey, but everyone at school instantly likes her, and thinks she's beautiful, etc. Also, that these negative traits, are seen as wonderful "quirks" by those around him.

House, as I recall him in the show up through like season 3-4 before I quit, had a LOT of issues due to his flaws. His inability to socialize well, caused him lots of grief with his job and his friends, almost getting him fired. His drug habit also negatively impacted his life, almost killing him a few times I think, as well as nearly getting him fired. Very few people found House to be "quirky". They tolerated him because he was really fucking good at his job, and was able to save lives that nobody else was likely to save (but not always, he did fail several times to save the patient). Now, while these don't automatically exclude him from Marty/Gary Stu club, that's a pretty big one that I always see listed. If he is still a Stu, he is less of one compared to other characters. Most of those "Sue Test" sites have a sliding scale of Sueness. Some traits are simply tropes, and it's neither good nor bad to have them in and of themselves. It's how many you stack up at once, and how they are presented in the story.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

I'd add something along the lines "Please shut up about how Force Awakens is similar to A New Hope. You can't complain about the movies are similar when it's exactly what you wanted. Also don't pretend like SW isn't a stranger to bullshit."

Bit of a difference between being similar, and abusing copy/paste when writing the script.