How would you change the Force Awakens?

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Dazzle Novak

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erttheking said:
You're not bothering to distinguish between beloved movies/ characters and their universally-panned sequels.

Fans loathed Live Free or Die Hard for the exact reason you're criticizing it: the appeal of the original Die Hard was the illusion of hardship. People remember that film for little sadistic obstacles like McClane being unlucky enough to have been convinced to walk around barefoot then needing to run over broken glass as they do for the "big damn hero" moments. And you keep bringing up Anakin when he was among the biggest point of contention among prequel haters. You're not even managing to maintain a consistent straw man, insisting male protagonists are universally-praised. They're not. They get cut more slack. I'll grant you that.

As for Rey, I think Smilomaniac nailed it. I can take or leave her being abilities. What rubs me wrong is how easily everyone becomes enamored with her. No one treats her like a grubby hick from a backwards planet like they did Luke. People squabbled with and/or dismissed Luke in A New Hope. Han and others need to constantly reaffirm how amazing Rey is. She can't even be handed a blaster during a firefight without it being framed as "OMG, you think I'm some helpless girl who can't take care of herself?" followed by Han, supposed grumpy smuggler, patting her on the head.
 

Erttheking

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inu-kun said:
erttheking said:
Zontar said:
In the original movie sure, but he gets up to some pretty stupid shit in Live Free or Die Hard. Ok, how was he manipulated in Commando? And True Lies? And Terminator? And End of Days? And Running Man? His other movies I give you, but that's a lot of movies with no manipulation. And I don't care how much of a weak immature child Anakin is, everything he does is pure bullshit and everything in the Phantom Menace is dedicating to building up what a precious little chosen one he is. Also squandering his genius? In Avengers they made it clear that he's turning Stark Industry into a front liner for clean energy. How is that squandering his genius?

I don't remember a single negative thing about Anakin in the Phantom Menace. And I honestly hear less Sue accusations directed at him than Rey. And if a lack of flaws is the mark of a Mary Sue, then Rey doesn't qualify. Because her balking at the pressure of taking up Luke's light saber caused her to be captured, leading to Han Solo being killed. Rey is responsible for Han Solo's death.
Butting in the argument, but one of the key elements in mary sue/gary stu is that they did not achieve their power in a sane way, so yeah Arnold Shwarzenegger does insane shit, but he is built like Arnold Shwarzenegger, and in Die Hard the character go through sequesently crazy stuff his badass-ness is logical, Tony Stark is pure suit and only in the last films seems to do things without the suit, and nobody liked Anakin, plus he is a huge subversion of the hero as he turns dark side.

Anyways, a good way to identify those characters is this (the 'How Can I Tell If My Character Is A Mary Sue?' not the chart in the start, and has a list of male Gary Stus):
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
Uh. You need more than muscles to do the shit that Arnold does. Mowing down dozens upon dozens of soldiers in Commando while standing out in the open and not getting shot. His build helps that how? Logical? How is not getting blasted by a Harrier jet while you're in a semi-truck logical? Yes I know nobody liked Anakin, which makes it even more baffling that Rey gets more Sue accusations than him. Yes I know he turns to the dark side, but in Phantom menace he still saves the day, he's the good guy there, he hasn't done anything to hint turning to the dark side, he's just a little Stu. And he somehow gets less shit than Rey. "Tony Stark is pure shit." Uh. Does that mean you're saying that he's a Stu? That statement is...vague.

Yeah the thing with those tests is that people have pointed out to me in the past that characters considered extremely well written can fail them, such as Guts from Berserk or Morpheus from Sandman. When you get down to it, we need to decide who's a Sue or a Stu on our own and not rely on tests.
 

Erttheking

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inu-kun said:
I don't really follow your logic here. There's a bit of a jump between not being an accountant and massacring dozens. Like a really big jump. I find it very head scratching is what, considering that people seem to focus more on his acting being annoying than anything else. I mean if people really hated him they would've pointed out everything that he had done. So you can't be a Stu if you're not good with people? *Looks at Dr. House* I would like to dispute that.

Gendered? Well I never claimed it was about gender, so I don't know why you bring it up. I was saying that Rey was getting disproportionate hate compared to other movie stars. Argue the points that I made, nothing else please.

That's the point. Someone put him through the Gary Stu test and he failed it miserably. The test is unreliable.
 

Jeivar

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I wouldn't change it at all. I feel it is a fantastic, epic adventure movie. The MRA-types and the imdb message boards can to suck a fat one.
 

Christian Neihart

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I'd add something along the lines "Please shut up about how Force Awakens is similar to A New Hope. You can't complain about the movies are similar when it's exactly what you wanted. Also don't pretend like SW isn't a stranger to bullshit."
 

RaikuFA

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The music in the Cantina scene. It was shit. I know it'd be dumb to just make it the iconic one from ANH but they could have at least tried.
 

happyninja42

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inu-kun said:
Anyways, the fact a character is capable does not make it su-ish and it's not a gender thing, you want male gary stus? You have Kirito and Eragon, want powerful female characters who are not called mary sues? Sarah Connor and Ripley. If so many people think Ray is a sue, then they might have a point.
Actually, just because a bunch of people believe something, doesn't mean it's correct. So an argument ad populas...populum(?) doesn't really help.

erttheking said:
inu-kun said:
I don't really follow your logic here. There's a bit of a jump between not being an accountant and massacring dozens. Like a really big jump. I find it very head scratching is what, considering that people seem to focus more on his acting being annoying than anything else. I mean if people really hated him they would've pointed out everything that he had done. So you can't be a Stu if you're not good with people? *Looks at Dr. House* I would like to dispute that.
I've never heard House referred to as a Stu. Granted, I don't really follow the House fanbase, so take that as you will. But as I understand the somewhat nebulous traits of a Sue/Stu, one of the key traits, is that whatever negative traits they might have, never actually effect them in a negative way in the story. Bella is fatally clumsy, but never seems to actually have issues with it in a day to day way (like in a kitchen, where there are a million ways for a clumsy person to injure themselves). She's described as socially awkward and mousey, but everyone at school instantly likes her, and thinks she's beautiful, etc. Also, that these negative traits, are seen as wonderful "quirks" by those around him.

House, as I recall him in the show up through like season 3-4 before I quit, had a LOT of issues due to his flaws. His inability to socialize well, caused him lots of grief with his job and his friends, almost getting him fired. His drug habit also negatively impacted his life, almost killing him a few times I think, as well as nearly getting him fired. Very few people found House to be "quirky". They tolerated him because he was really fucking good at his job, and was able to save lives that nobody else was likely to save (but not always, he did fail several times to save the patient). Now, while these don't automatically exclude him from Marty/Gary Stu club, that's a pretty big one that I always see listed. If he is still a Stu, he is less of one compared to other characters. Most of those "Sue Test" sites have a sliding scale of Sueness. Some traits are simply tropes, and it's neither good nor bad to have them in and of themselves. It's how many you stack up at once, and how they are presented in the story.
 

Metalix Knightmare

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Christian Neihart said:
I'd add something along the lines "Please shut up about how Force Awakens is similar to A New Hope. You can't complain about the movies are similar when it's exactly what you wanted. Also don't pretend like SW isn't a stranger to bullshit."
Bit of a difference between being similar, and abusing copy/paste when writing the script.
 

Erttheking

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inu-kun said:
erttheking said:
inu-kun said:
I don't really follow your logic here. There's a bit of a jump between not being an accountant and massacring dozens. Like a really big jump. I find it very head scratching is what, considering that people seem to focus more on his acting being annoying than anything else. I mean if people really hated him they would've pointed out everything that he had done. So you can't be a Stu if you're not good with people? *Looks at Dr. House* I would like to dispute that.

Gendered? Well I never claimed it was about gender, so I don't know why you bring it up. I was saying that Rey was getting disproportionate hate compared to other movie stars. Argue the points that I made, nothing else please.

That's the point. Someone put him through the Gary Stu test and he failed it miserably. The test is unreliable.
If the character has a history doing something and looks the part, then people won't take it as bizzare for the character doing it. Also House? The drug addict, who insults everyone, is not really well liked is a stu? You should remember that the prime aspect of the sue that it has no (real) faults, though there are people who will probably count him as a sue.

And please, the gender thing is a key part of people not liking Ray being called a mary sue.
Yeah, that's a non-explination. You need to do more than look the part to make a character that isn't a Stu. I admit to only watching a few episodes, but every single one was about how he was smarter than everyone else, was always right, always got his way, and got to insult everyone and constantly violated the law without ever having to face consequences for it. There's a thing about Sues, they often claim to have flaws but those flaws turn out to not really be flaws. Like I said, for all of House's flaws, in the episodes I watched he never had to face the consequences of his flaws. A person doesn't need to be liked to be a Stu. There's a trope for that.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkSue

Don't tell me why I do or do not like the term being used. I didn't bring up gender, it has no part in this conversation.
 

Christian Neihart

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Metalix Knightmare said:
Christian Neihart said:
I'd add something along the lines "Please shut up about how Force Awakens is similar to A New Hope. You can't complain about the movies are similar when it's exactly what you wanted. Also don't pretend like SW isn't a stranger to bullshit."
Bit of a difference between being similar, and abusing copy/paste when writing the script.
Far as I'm concerned, they're completely different movies. You can keep on complaining about how they're one in the same til the cows come home.
 

burnout02urza

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Rey is a guy, and the new Luke.

Finn is white, and the new Han.

Kylo Ren isn't pathetic - He's proud and terrifying in his cruelty, like a young SS officer. He embodies the concept that the Dark Side can be majestic. He's conflicted, but he simply cannot help but be evil. The Dark Side is his true nature, and Snoke is giving him an outlet. He loves his father, but Han would have him deny what he is.

Poe dies, instead of inexplicably surviving.

The Supreme Leader isn't called 'Snoke'.
 

RedDeadFred

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I'd get rid of the whole Death Star 3.0 thing. I felt like I was watching a spoof when they said "this was the Death Star, THIS is Star Killer Base." Why does it always have to come down to super weapons? I'd rather it be more about the Force, or more about huge battles between massive fleets.

I'd also just remove Captain Phasma. She was basically there to look silver and disable the shields to the base (and I don't believe for a second that a Captain wouldn't sacrifice themselves to save their entire operation). It would have been more interesting if Kylo had been the one to go directly to Fin. He clearly detected something about him when they were destroying the village, he should have been the one to question him and then tell him to report for reconditioning. It's a small thing, but it might have helped make his emotionally charged "TRAITOR" at the end of the movie feel more organic.
 

Breakdown

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The Sith leader should be called Snokey Robinson.

Finn should keep his helmet on for the entire film, and should occasionally walk into walls.

When Leia hugs Rey, she refuses to let go and starts weeping uncontrollably.
 

happyninja42

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erttheking said:
Yeah, that's a non-explination. You need to do more than look the part to make a character that isn't a Stu. I admit to only watching a few episodes, but every single one was about how he was smarter than everyone else, was always right, always got his way, and got to insult everyone and constantly violated the law without ever having to face consequences for it. There's a thing about Sues, they often claim to have flaws but those flaws turn out to not really be flaws. Like I said, for all of House's flaws, in the episodes I watched he never had to face the consequences of his flaws. A person doesn't need to be liked to be a Stu. There's a trope for that.
So, you basically don't know the character, and are making blanket assumptions about how he is, based on incomplete evidence. Got it.

Bottom line, he did in fact, get in trouble for the way he behaved. It didn't happen right away, or in every episode, because you know, drama. But his behavior, work ethic, drug habit, disregard for laws and social norms, came back to bite him in the ass multiple times in the show. He lost lovers because of how he behaved, friends and coworkers, almost lost his job because he pissed off the wrong person, and I'm pretty sure he almost died once or twice due to either his drug habit, or pissing off the wrong person who decided to shoot him or something. So no, he wasn't a bullet proof Sue who could do whatever he wanted without consequences.
 

Erttheking

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Happyninja42 said:
erttheking said:
Yeah, that's a non-explination. You need to do more than look the part to make a character that isn't a Stu. I admit to only watching a few episodes, but every single one was about how he was smarter than everyone else, was always right, always got his way, and got to insult everyone and constantly violated the law without ever having to face consequences for it. There's a thing about Sues, they often claim to have flaws but those flaws turn out to not really be flaws. Like I said, for all of House's flaws, in the episodes I watched he never had to face the consequences of his flaws. A person doesn't need to be liked to be a Stu. There's a trope for that.
So, you basically don't know the character, and are making blanket assumptions about how he is, based on incomplete evidence. Got it.

Bottom line, he did in fact, get in trouble for the way he behaved. It didn't happen right away, or in every episode, because you know, drama. But his behavior, work ethic, drug habit, disregard for laws and social norms, came back to bite him in the ass multiple times in the show. He lost lovers because of how he behaved, friends and coworkers, almost lost his job because he pissed off the wrong person, and I'm pretty sure he almost died once or twice due to either his drug habit, or pissing off the wrong person who decided to shoot him or something. So no, he wasn't a bullet proof Sue who could do whatever he wanted without consequences.
........

Let's just say that you're right and move on. It's not like a have a lot riding on the claim I made anyway.
 

Something Amyss

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Happyninja42 said:
He lost lovers because of how he behaved
Most of which he didn't care about in the first place.

friends and coworkers
It's hard to say he has friends. Even Wilson is more an enabler.

almost lost his job because he pissed off the wrong person
Now, this is where I get a little dodgy, because I tuned out in the last season or two, so maybe he faced real consequences, but not in any meaningful sense. Hell, at the end of the Tritter arc, he revealed he had manipulated the entire situation to his advantage. Which is a shame, because I really liked that arc. The fact that Tritter was a strong parallel to House. Unfortunately, nobody can stand up to House for long. Not the legal system, not the police.0

and I'm pretty sure he almost died once or twice due to either his drug habit, or pissing off the wrong person who decided to shoot him or something.
Ironically, Sues frequently end up in danger. What separates them is that basically, the whole world revolves around them. Sort of like the way that even the "friends" House alienated would bend over backwards, even themselves breaking the law, their code of ethics, or other friendships to do it. House is the subject of speeches about how he's just misunderstood, or he's really a good person, or barring that, how he gets the job done and we must do everything we can to save him from himself.

Oh, and getting shot led to him getting the use of his leg back temporarily, with minimal lasting consequences.

So no, he wasn't a bullet proof Sue who could do whatever he wanted without consequences.
Just meaningful ones. Unless he got killed in the last season or something. Maybe he did finally get his comeuppance, but most of the time, he beat the odds and usually because he manipulated the situation.

The closest I can think of offhand is him opting to check himself into rehab. After manipulating the system like, three times. House is just so good he can outsmart the law, his friends, his employers, trained professionals...the only person he can't outsmart is himself. Sue characters tend to lose in ways that are still wins.

I'd even give the figure he was based on--Sherlock Holmes--more the benefit of the doubt because Holmes was written at a time where it wasn't exactly uncommon to have heroes who could do pretty much everything. Classic Holmes probably wouldn't be that big these days, which is why almost every version, official or guys like House, adds character flaws to make up for how awesome he is. They usually play up antisocial tendencies or drug use, kind of like House.

This is not a compelling argument against Ert's case. He looks to be willing to drop it because he lacks the information, but...I don't.

So. Moving on to something more related to the topic at hand.

Revelo said:
I think the film does need to stop assuming that everyone had read the tie-in material before watching it, as a few scenes fall flat when the film gives us no context.
I didn't read any tie-in material and never felt lost.

Also, Phasma, just what was her point in the movie, she's hyped as a mysterious badass and we see none of it, at least have her fight Han, Chewie and Finn, just so we can see her show off and establish her credentials.
Yeeeeeeeeah. I hear they wanted to establish her early, but the way they did it was...bloody awful. She looks weak and incompetent within the movie, so it doesn't exactly do anything to establish her in any way I'd want to establish a prominent character. t seems like there are more than a few ways to do it, even if you keep in the bit about her being captured by the heroes and forced to lower the shield. Which I wouldn't have done, personally, but if you're going to.

She doesn't have to beat the good guys to seem like a threat--see Vader and the original trench run--but to basically instantly submit doesn't make her seem like someone worth having around. She seems more like the kind of incompetent underling Vader would have forgiven with a Force Choke.


Unfortunately, Kylo Ren was busy destroying his room in a temper tantrum at the time.