How would you change the Force Awakens?

[Erttheking]

Snip

I don't really follow your logic here. There's a bit of a jump between not being an accountant and massacring dozens. Like a really big jump. I find it very head scratching is what, considering that people seem to focus more on his acting being annoying than anything else. I mean if people really hated him they would've pointed out everything that he had done. So you can't be a Stu if you're not good with people? *Looks at Dr. House* I would like to dispute that.

Gendered? Well I never claimed it was about gender, so I don't know why you bring it up. I was saying that Rey was getting disproportionate hate compared to other movie stars. Argue the points that I made, nothing else please.

That's the point. Someone put him through the Gary Stu test and he failed it miserably. The test is unreliable.

If the character has a history doing something and looks the part, then people won't take it as bizzare for the character doing it. Also House? The drug addict, who insults everyone, is not really well liked is a stu? You should remember that the prime aspect of the sue that it has no (real) faults, though there are people who will probably count him as a sue.

And please, the gender thing is a key part of people not liking Ray being called a mary sue.

Yeah, that's a non-explination. You need to do more than look the part to make a character that isn't a Stu. I admit to only watching a few episodes, but every single one was about how he was smarter than everyone else, was always right, always got his way, and got to insult everyone and constantly violated the law without ever having to face consequences for it. There's a thing about Sues, they often claim to have flaws but those flaws turn out to not really be flaws. Like I said, for all of House's flaws, in the episodes I watched he never had to face the consequences of his flaws. A person doesn't need to be liked to be a Stu. There's a trope for that.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkSue

Don't tell me why I do or do not like the term being used. I didn't bring up gender, it has no part in this conversation.

 

[Christian Neihart]

I'd add something along the lines "Please shut up about how Force Awakens is similar to A New Hope. You can't complain about the movies are similar when it's exactly what you wanted. Also don't pretend like SW isn't a stranger to bullshit."

Bit of a difference between being similar, and abusing copy/paste when writing the script.

Far as I'm concerned, they're completely different movies. You can keep on complaining about how they're one in the same til the cows come home.

 

[burnout02urza]

Rey is a guy, and the new Luke.

Finn is white, and the new Han.

Kylo Ren isn't pathetic - He's proud and terrifying in his cruelty, like a young SS officer. He embodies the concept that the Dark Side can be majestic. He's conflicted, but he simply cannot help but be evil. The Dark Side is his true nature, and Snoke is giving him an outlet. He loves his father, but Han would have him deny what he is.

Poe dies, instead of inexplicably surviving.

The Supreme Leader isn't called 'Snoke'.

 

[RedDeadFred]

I'd get rid of the whole Death Star 3.0 thing. I felt like I was watching a spoof when they said "this was the Death Star, THIS is Star Killer Base." Why does it always have to come down to super weapons? I'd rather it be more about the Force, or more about huge battles between massive fleets.

I'd also just remove Captain Phasma. She was basically there to look silver and disable the shields to the base (and I don't believe for a second that a Captain wouldn't sacrifice themselves to save their entire operation). It would have been more interesting if Kylo had been the one to go directly to Fin. He clearly detected something about him when they were destroying the village, he should have been the one to question him and then tell him to report for reconditioning. It's a small thing, but it might have helped make his emotionally charged "TRAITOR" at the end of the movie feel more organic.

 

[Breakdown]

The Sith leader should be called Snokey Robinson.

Finn should keep his helmet on for the entire film, and should occasionally walk into walls.

When Leia hugs Rey, she refuses to let go and starts weeping uncontrollably.

 

[happyninja42]

Yeah, that's a non-explination. You need to do more than look the part to make a character that isn't a Stu. I admit to only watching a few episodes, but every single one was about how he was smarter than everyone else, was always right, always got his way, and got to insult everyone and constantly violated the law without ever having to face consequences for it. There's a thing about Sues, they often claim to have flaws but those flaws turn out to not really be flaws. Like I said, for all of House's flaws, in the episodes I watched he never had to face the consequences of his flaws. A person doesn't need to be liked to be a Stu. There's a trope for that.

So, you basically don't know the character, and are making blanket assumptions about how he is, based on incomplete evidence. Got it.

Bottom line, he did in fact, get in trouble for the way he behaved. It didn't happen right away, or in every episode, because you know, drama. But his behavior, work ethic, drug habit, disregard for laws and social norms, came back to bite him in the ass multiple times in the show. He lost lovers because of how he behaved, friends and coworkers, almost lost his job because he pissed off the wrong person, and I'm pretty sure he almost died once or twice due to either his drug habit, or pissing off the wrong person who decided to shoot him or something. So no, he wasn't a bullet proof Sue who could do whatever he wanted without consequences.

 

[kogane]

Less awkward close-ups of people's faces. More Leia being a general.

 

[Erttheking]

Yeah, that's a non-explination. You need to do more than look the part to make a character that isn't a Stu. I admit to only watching a few episodes, but every single one was about how he was smarter than everyone else, was always right, always got his way, and got to insult everyone and constantly violated the law without ever having to face consequences for it. There's a thing about Sues, they often claim to have flaws but those flaws turn out to not really be flaws. Like I said, for all of House's flaws, in the episodes I watched he never had to face the consequences of his flaws. A person doesn't need to be liked to be a Stu. There's a trope for that.

So, you basically don't know the character, and are making blanket assumptions about how he is, based on incomplete evidence. Got it.

Bottom line, he did in fact, get in trouble for the way he behaved. It didn't happen right away, or in every episode, because you know, drama. But his behavior, work ethic, drug habit, disregard for laws and social norms, came back to bite him in the ass multiple times in the show. He lost lovers because of how he behaved, friends and coworkers, almost lost his job because he pissed off the wrong person, and I'm pretty sure he almost died once or twice due to either his drug habit, or pissing off the wrong person who decided to shoot him or something. So no, he wasn't a bullet proof Sue who could do whatever he wanted without consequences.

........

Let's just say that you're right and move on. It's not like a have a lot riding on the claim I made anyway.

 

[Something Amyss]

He lost lovers because of how he behaved

Most of which he didn't care about in the first place.

friends and coworkers

It's hard to say he has friends. Even Wilson is more an enabler.

almost lost his job because he pissed off the wrong person

Now, this is where I get a little dodgy, because I tuned out in the last season or two, so maybe he faced real consequences, but not in any meaningful sense. Hell, at the end of the Tritter arc, he revealed he had manipulated the entire situation to his advantage. Which is a shame, because I really liked that arc. The fact that Tritter was a strong parallel to House. Unfortunately, nobody can stand up to House for long. Not the legal system, not the police.0

and I'm pretty sure he almost died once or twice due to either his drug habit, or pissing off the wrong person who decided to shoot him or something.

Ironically, Sues frequently end up in danger. What separates them is that basically, the whole world revolves around them. Sort of like the way that even the "friends" House alienated would bend over backwards, even themselves breaking the law, their code of ethics, or other friendships to do it. House is the subject of speeches about how he's just misunderstood, or he's really a good person, or barring that, how he gets the job done and we must do everything we can to save him from himself.

Oh, and getting shot led to him getting the use of his leg back temporarily, with minimal lasting consequences.

So no, he wasn't a bullet proof Sue who could do whatever he wanted without consequences.

Just meaningful ones. Unless he got killed in the last season or something. Maybe he did finally get his comeuppance, but most of the time, he beat the odds and usually because he manipulated the situation.

The closest I can think of offhand is him opting to check himself into rehab. After manipulating the system like, three times. House is just so good he can outsmart the law, his friends, his employers, trained professionals...the only person he can't outsmart is himself. Sue characters tend to lose in ways that are still wins.

I'd even give the figure he was based on--Sherlock Holmes--more the benefit of the doubt because Holmes was written at a time where it wasn't exactly uncommon to have heroes who could do pretty much everything. Classic Holmes probably wouldn't be that big these days, which is why almost every version, official or guys like House, adds character flaws to make up for how awesome he is. They usually play up antisocial tendencies or drug use, kind of like House.

This is not a compelling argument against Ert's case. He looks to be willing to drop it because he lacks the information, but...I don't.

So. Moving on to something more related to the topic at hand.

I think the film does need to stop assuming that everyone had read the tie-in material before watching it, as a few scenes fall flat when the film gives us no context.

I didn't read any tie-in material and never felt lost.

Also, Phasma, just what was her point in the movie, she's hyped as a mysterious badass and we see none of it, at least have her fight Han, Chewie and Finn, just so we can see her show off and establish her credentials.

Yeeeeeeeeah. I hear they wanted to establish her early, but the way they did it was...bloody awful. She looks weak and incompetent within the movie, so it doesn't exactly do anything to establish her in any way I'd want to establish a prominent character. t seems like there are more than a few ways to do it, even if you keep in the bit about her being captured by the heroes and forced to lower the shield. Which I wouldn't have done, personally, but if you're going to.

She doesn't have to beat the good guys to seem like a threat--see Vader and the original trench run--but to basically instantly submit doesn't make her seem like someone worth having around. She seems more like the kind of incompetent underling Vader would have forgiven with a Force Choke.


Unfortunately, Kylo Ren was busy destroying his room in a temper tantrum at the time.

 

[JoJo]

Rey is a guy, and the new Luke.

Finn is white, and the new Han.

Kylo Ren isn't pathetic - He's proud and terrifying in his cruelty, like a young SS officer. He embodies the concept that the Dark Side can be majestic. He's conflicted, but he simply cannot help but be evil. The Dark Side is his true nature, and Snoke is giving him an outlet. He loves his father, but Han would have him deny what he is.

Poe dies, instead of inexplicably surviving.

The Supreme Leader isn't called 'Snoke'.

Uh, why exactly does the race or gender of the characters matter? Sounds like you pretty much want Episode IV again.

OT: Not much, I'd just get in some more explanation of what's been happening in the galaxy for the last thirty years, and give the planets a little screentime before they get vaporised.

 

[happyninja42]

He lost lovers because of how he behaved

Most of which he didn't care about in the first place.

I dunno, most of the episodes I saw, he showed genuine remorse over losing a lover or so. He just didn't let others see it much. And since the show mostly revolved around him interacting with other people, we didn't see his Sad House mode very much. I didn't see the entire series, I think I stopped around...season 4? maybe 3 but possibly 4. I think it was the arc where he had the batch of numbered doctors that he was whittling down to get the replacement doctor. Whatever season that was I think.

friends and coworkers

It's hard to say he has friends. Even Wilson is more an enabler.

You can be an enabler, and still be a friend. They aren't mutually exclusive.

almost lost his job because he pissed off the wrong person

Now, this is where I get a little dodgy, because I tuned out in the last season or two, so maybe he faced real consequences, but not in any meaningful sense. Hell, at the end of the Tritter arc, he revealed he had manipulated the entire situation to his advantage. Which is a shame, because I really liked that arc. The fact that Tritter was a strong parallel to House. Unfortunately, nobody can stand up to House for long. Not the legal system, not the police.0

Is Tritter the big black guy who took over the hospital, and tried to change things about how it was run? If so, I don't recall any manipulation bit on his part, so I can't comment on that. And to be fair, the actual threat of him being fired when the show is named after him is pretty much a foregone conclusion to not happen. But still, the risk was there. Most Sues (as I have always seen them represented), wouldn't ever get to that point. Tritter would instead become his biggest friend, and love him from day one for his "plucky and energetic demeanor!", instead of making it a personal goal to have him fired because he didn't like the guy. Sure our protagonist won in the end, but that's hardly a Sue-specific thing. The protagonist pretty much always wins, that's just how it is. If someone hates a Sue, it's usually for unfounded reasons. Like that female vampire in Twilight that hated Bella, because why? No reason, she just didn't like her. Tritter however, had VERY good reasons to dislike House...because well...he's House, and he's an ass.

and I'm pretty sure he almost died once or twice due to either his drug habit, or pissing off the wrong person who decided to shoot him or something.

Ironically, Sues frequently end up in danger. What separates them is that basically, the whole world revolves around them. Sort of like the way that even the "friends" House alienated would bend over backwards, even themselves breaking the law, their code of ethics, or other friendships to do it. House is the subject of speeches about how he's just misunderstood, or he's really a good person, or barring that, how he gets the job done and we must do everything we can to save him from himself.

Oh, and getting shot led to him getting the use of his leg back temporarily, with minimal lasting consequences.

I could be remembering these parts wrong, as I stopped watching. I vaguely recall his vicodin addiction getting REALLY bad, and causing him serious health problems, and possibly almost overdosing once? *shrugs* I don't recall. As to being shot, again I might be remembering that wrong. I could've sworn at some point, he pissed somebody off to the point where they shot him. Like some deranged patient he berated one too many times or something. Though this could be false recollection on my part, about a season I barely saw. But my point about Sue's, is that in general, they don't end up putting themselves in life threatening situations due to stupid decisions on their part, or as a consequence of their own actions. Sure there are exceptions, Bella trying to kill herself to see the illusion of her ex boyfriend (twu wuv!), but usually, they are only threatened by outside forces. Because they are usually not allowed to actually have flaws, and make actual mistakes, it's not possible for them to do something that will bite them in the ass later.

So no, he wasn't a bullet proof Sue who could do whatever he wanted without consequences.

Just meaningful ones. Unless he got killed in the last season or something. Maybe he did finally get his comeuppance, but most of the time, he beat the odds and usually because he manipulated the situation.

Maybe they did undo that stuff later, I don't know. But up to the point that I saw it, he didn't "get away" with everything. He had genuine fallout from his actions, lost friends, near death experiences, lost lovers, etc. Sure in the end he comes out on top, he has Protagonist Armor to help with that. I still don't think he's a Sue. But yeah, not really on topic, so whatever.

 

[JUMBO PALACE]

I would much prefer to have seen OP's version quite honestly.

One thing I really wish they had done as well is actually make it clear why the Resistance is called the resistance when they are actually fighting the rebels. I read somewhere on this forum a post by someone clearing this up thanks to the novelization and something about how the republic isn't acknowledging the First Order and Leia essentially had to start the Republic's resistance efforts underground. BUT FUCKING TELL US THAT JJ YOU TWAT.


... Sorry. I get more mad at JJ Abrams as I type.

 

[Yuuki]

Get a different writer and director for starters, write a new actual plot rather then cannibalize the plot of the old trilogy, don't debase the film in fanservice and finally remember that the force requires actual practice and is not some Mutant power.

BINGO. This pretty much sums up all my issues with the movie.

 

[Something Amyss]

The only time I remember seeing him show genuine remorse was over Cuddy, and even that's questionable. A season or so later he totally played her.

House gets occasional "pet the dog" moments, which usually are used to fuel how awesome he is. Like when he ends u pgetting Wilson to say he's autistic to get Cuddy and company off his back.

You can be an enabler, and still be a friend. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Hence I said more. I don't think House valued Wilson much beyond an asset.

Is Tritter the big black guy who took over the hospital, and tried to change things about how it was run? If so, I don't recall any manipulation bit on his part, so I can't comment on that. And to be fair, the actual threat of him being fired when the show is named after him is pretty much a foregone conclusion to not happen. But still, the risk was there. Most Sues (as I have always seen them represented), wouldn't ever get to that point. Tritter would instead become his biggest friend, and love him from day one for his "plucky and energetic demeanor!", instead of making it a personal goal to have him fired because he didn't like the guy. Sure our protagonist won in the end, but that's hardly a Sue-specific thing. The protagonist pretty much always wins, that's just how it is. If someone hates a Sue, it's usually for unfounded reasons. Like that female vampire in Twilight that hated Bella, because why? No reason, she just didn't like her. Tritter however, had VERY good reasons to dislike House...because well...he's House, and he's an ass.

Tritter was the cop from season 3 (I had to look up the season, mind). Possibly a sociopath, fixated on taking House down a peg for his treatment of others, and House basically hands it to him on a silver platter. He goes through fake penitance, including rehab, only for us to find out he's high as fuck and has been the entire time. The end result is that he manipulated everyone, and put all his "friends" and "coworkers" through hell to do so. He practically cost Wilson his job so he could play a game with a cop who made it clear he had a hardon for him.

And we're meant to cheer on House through this entire thing. It could be a "what the hell, player?" moment, but I very sincerely doubt it. Tritter is unequivocally the bad guy, even as he parallels House (right down, I believe, to using Greg's signature line of "everybody lies." No word on whether or not it's Lupus in his book)

I could be remembering these parts wrong, as I stopped watching. I vaguely recall his vicodin addiction getting REALLY bad, and causing him serious health problems, and possibly almost overdosing once? *shrugs* I don't recall.

His Vicodin habit threatened his health several times, usually in fairly trivial ways. The biggest, honestly, was probably actually the hallucinations in a later season. That's when he hits rock bottom and actually checks into rehab for reals, but I think that turned out to be shit, too. But his Vicodin habit was always really bad. Still not an argument against Sues, because you have Mary Sues who are literally dying.

As to being shot, again I might be remembering that wrong. I could've sworn at some point, he pissed somebody off to the point where they shot him. Like some deranged patient he berated one too many times or something. Though this could be false recollection on my part, about a season I barely saw. But my point about Sue's, is that in general, they don't end up putting themselves in life threatening situations due to stupid decisions on their part, or as a consequence of their own actions.

He was shot because he figured out that the man had had an affair and told his wife. House got shot because he was a super smarty pants, not because he misdiagnosed a patient or something. He pissed the guy off by exposing his wrongdoing.

Maybe they did undo that stuff later, I don't know. But up to the point that I saw it, he didn't "get away" with everything. He had genuine fallout from his actions, lost friends, near death experiences, lost lovers, etc. Sure in the end he comes out on top, he has Protagonist Armor to help with that. I still don't think he's a Sue. But yeah, not really on topic, so whatever.

And virtually every Sue has a tragic past. The problem is, he comes out on top. And usually, because he controlled the situation. House is generally where he wants to be. his "failures" are generally intentional.