How would you improve RPGs?
- Thread starter Zera
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Mostly I think people are starting to get the Right Idea. More interactivty, less menu driven combat. It brings a new set of challenges, making sure that character stats have enough of an impact on the gameplay that the player feels like the character levels are making a difference.
At the end of the day though, actual direct control over the character is the big deal for RPGs for me, it makes me far more invested in the character and the world when I am directly part of it all the time, especially in fights, where it matters the most.
At the end of the day though, actual direct control over the character is the big deal for RPGs for me, it makes me far more invested in the character and the world when I am directly part of it all the time, especially in fights, where it matters the most.
Well this is a massively ambiguous question with no sure way of me answering it... do you want me to comment on JRPGs only or RPGs as a whole... Well for me no computer RPG has beaten the experience of sitting 'round a table strewn with paper and snacks praying on a favourable roll of the die (I snuck into a wooden house absolutely silently, snuck upstairs, nicked the contents of a few rooms snuck out and only slipped up when instead of CLIMBING out of the window i fell and crashed onto the floor outside... we had to leg it)
Anyhoo... RPGs on the computer... JRPGs to give up, Western RPGs to be recognised as superior in every aspect. Oh the artistry may be interesting in Final Fantasy, but the combat is lame and the script seems to have been written by a fifteen year old who read Lord of the Rings too many times then thought "You know, this would be better with some sci-fi rolled into it." Then added some SERIOUS angst, I mean NOBODY has that many issues to deal with at any time. Whereas Western RPGs can easily compete on the eye-candy and seem more willing to touch the rough-stuff when it comes to characters, that leads to more compelling story-land. Plus they worked out that turn-based combat is DULL and strategic pauses in a fight to work out tactics is more fun. Plus the west has the classic RPGs to build from i.e. Dungeons and Dragons, d20 Modern, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and World of Darkness.
Anyhoo... RPGs on the computer... JRPGs to give up, Western RPGs to be recognised as superior in every aspect. Oh the artistry may be interesting in Final Fantasy, but the combat is lame and the script seems to have been written by a fifteen year old who read Lord of the Rings too many times then thought "You know, this would be better with some sci-fi rolled into it." Then added some SERIOUS angst, I mean NOBODY has that many issues to deal with at any time. Whereas Western RPGs can easily compete on the eye-candy and seem more willing to touch the rough-stuff when it comes to characters, that leads to more compelling story-land. Plus they worked out that turn-based combat is DULL and strategic pauses in a fight to work out tactics is more fun. Plus the west has the classic RPGs to build from i.e. Dungeons and Dragons, d20 Modern, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and World of Darkness.
Simplicity seems to be the key here. Less build optimisation and equipment dependency, more story and plot. Less picking and choosing characters based on their usefulness, more picking and choosing characters because you want them in your party.
As far as I have discovered, Planescape: Torment has been the best at this so far. Creating the Nameless One is simple, as all you have to do is assign stat points. Then you're straight into the story, encountering characterful NPCs as you slowly piece together the plot and come to understand everything.
You don't have to weigh up the benefits and drawbacks of any specific race or class, as you have no choice about the former and the latter is always kept open.
As far as the script for jRPGs is concerned, I believe most people, regardless of actual writing skill, could do better. Just take one spiky-haired, angsty prettyboy and one fatso whose main purpose is 'comic relief' (Neither being appropriate, as they are invariably as comical as stabbing yourself in the eye and you're never relieved to see them. In that sense, they're exactly the same as an embarrassing relative who loves to sing karaoke).
Then add in one or two talking animals, the stoic guy more serious than Serious Cat, and the three basic varieties of female characters: The whore, the saint and the child. Turn all of the cast into emotional cripples incapable of rational thought, and put them up against a generic, vapid Big Bad whose goal is to either enslave or destroy the universe.
And there you have a standard jRPG. I don't know why, but they eat that stuff up by the bucketload. How to improve it?
For starters, force-feed the character designers Prozac. They're going to need it in order to break out of their rut, otherwise all FF characters are going to start cutting themselves before long. Secondly, some variation in the characters and their interactions would be nice. There's only so many times a guy can watch the power of love save a loner from himself before he starts being able to work out what's going to happen before the villains themselves know.
Thirdly, not every Big Bad is out to rule or destroy the world. What's wrong with having one whose only goal is revenge? Obviously the people who create this tripe must believe that a plot must be suitably epic before anybody would consider it as being a serious one.
As far as I have discovered, Planescape: Torment has been the best at this so far. Creating the Nameless One is simple, as all you have to do is assign stat points. Then you're straight into the story, encountering characterful NPCs as you slowly piece together the plot and come to understand everything.
You don't have to weigh up the benefits and drawbacks of any specific race or class, as you have no choice about the former and the latter is always kept open.
As far as the script for jRPGs is concerned, I believe most people, regardless of actual writing skill, could do better. Just take one spiky-haired, angsty prettyboy and one fatso whose main purpose is 'comic relief' (Neither being appropriate, as they are invariably as comical as stabbing yourself in the eye and you're never relieved to see them. In that sense, they're exactly the same as an embarrassing relative who loves to sing karaoke).
Then add in one or two talking animals, the stoic guy more serious than Serious Cat, and the three basic varieties of female characters: The whore, the saint and the child. Turn all of the cast into emotional cripples incapable of rational thought, and put them up against a generic, vapid Big Bad whose goal is to either enslave or destroy the universe.
And there you have a standard jRPG. I don't know why, but they eat that stuff up by the bucketload. How to improve it?
For starters, force-feed the character designers Prozac. They're going to need it in order to break out of their rut, otherwise all FF characters are going to start cutting themselves before long. Secondly, some variation in the characters and their interactions would be nice. There's only so many times a guy can watch the power of love save a loner from himself before he starts being able to work out what's going to happen before the villains themselves know.
Thirdly, not every Big Bad is out to rule or destroy the world. What's wrong with having one whose only goal is revenge? Obviously the people who create this tripe must believe that a plot must be suitably epic before anybody would consider it as being a serious one.
Turn-based/menu guided/dice-rolling systems should really be reserved for table-top RPG experiences and left out of games, in my opinion. They take you out of the game. You can be immersed so deeply into a part in the story and forget that you're playing a game until you have to fight an enemy by picking an event (or rolling dice) and waiting for the other party to do the same thing before you can do anything else.
Just as an example, lets take Deus Ex. Most would lump that game into the FPS category, but there were a lot of role-playing elements in that game. To me, it felt like more of a role-playing game than a traditional FPS. Deus Ex made the role-playing experience truly interactive in the sense that interacting with the world and it characters and fighting enemies (or accomplishing goals/quests/objectives) were seamless and neither would cause me to break out of the experience.
WoW (and other MMOs) takes a stride in that direction but is mired by another problem that these MMOs (Or even the Elder Scrolls games) have, and that is "fetching". The whole experience of going on a quest to get something and to bring it back to someone is like getting "busy work" in school. If more attention was given to advancing the storyline then it wouldn't be as bad I supposed.
Just as an example, lets take Deus Ex. Most would lump that game into the FPS category, but there were a lot of role-playing elements in that game. To me, it felt like more of a role-playing game than a traditional FPS. Deus Ex made the role-playing experience truly interactive in the sense that interacting with the world and it characters and fighting enemies (or accomplishing goals/quests/objectives) were seamless and neither would cause me to break out of the experience.
WoW (and other MMOs) takes a stride in that direction but is mired by another problem that these MMOs (Or even the Elder Scrolls games) have, and that is "fetching". The whole experience of going on a quest to get something and to bring it back to someone is like getting "busy work" in school. If more attention was given to advancing the storyline then it wouldn't be as bad I supposed.
I would want the following things, some apply not just to JRPGs or even RPGs:
1. Mature stories with adult heroes. No emo kids.
2. No grinding, absolutely every fight you have should be related to the story. It should matter that you have to resort to violence, it shouldn't be taken for granted that you'll have to massacre thousands of nameless monsters.
3. No monsters. Your enemies should all be human or some equivalent. They should have motivations, goals and a life as something other than wandering buckets of experience.
4. Choices that impact the story. You should be able to make important decisions that affect the story in meaningful ways.
5. Let you play a role. Let you make choices that define the character you are playing as. If you can't create the hero from the ground up, at least allow significant variation in how they interact with the world. Have their words and actions matter more than their stats.
6. Fewer stereotypes, please. Deeper, more complex characters.
7. Less dependence on fantasy. There are so many possible settings, can we have more variety?
8. No magic.
Some of these are simply matters of taste, some would be difficult, but these are what I would want to see.
1. Mature stories with adult heroes. No emo kids.
2. No grinding, absolutely every fight you have should be related to the story. It should matter that you have to resort to violence, it shouldn't be taken for granted that you'll have to massacre thousands of nameless monsters.
3. No monsters. Your enemies should all be human or some equivalent. They should have motivations, goals and a life as something other than wandering buckets of experience.
4. Choices that impact the story. You should be able to make important decisions that affect the story in meaningful ways.
5. Let you play a role. Let you make choices that define the character you are playing as. If you can't create the hero from the ground up, at least allow significant variation in how they interact with the world. Have their words and actions matter more than their stats.
6. Fewer stereotypes, please. Deeper, more complex characters.
7. Less dependence on fantasy. There are so many possible settings, can we have more variety?
8. No magic.
Some of these are simply matters of taste, some would be difficult, but these are what I would want to see.
My pet peeve with RPGs (especially jRPGS) these days is this: All of the cool things in the story are done by other people. All of the interesting choices, tactics, and combat are typically handled in exposition or in cut scenes. We as the players are reduced to the role of sidekick.
Think of FF12, Baltier should have been the main story, as Vaan's point of view is dull. His story is minor. But Baltier and his moral choices are things we cannot influence.
In jRPGs all we do is walk from point A to B to have a story told to us. There is no choice at all, except in the way you have to defeat the generic monsters on the way. Western RPGs (Morrowind, KOTOR, Fallout, etc.) handle this much better--your choices matter--but there aren't enough of them.
Also:
1. Nonlinear story.
2. Moral choices beyond Schoolboy and Utter Bastard would be nice.
3. Adult protagonists with adult choices.
4. Sex. The median age of gamers is 29. We can handle it.
5. Stop the grinding.
6. More choice in the nature of the protagonist: male/female, straight/gay, old/young, etc.
7. Different settings.
8. Let us make interesting choices. Why can't I use my uber-summons to open that locked door?
9. No more maps on rails.
Mass Effect does a lot of this, and is lauded for it. I just want to see more games like it.
Think of FF12, Baltier should have been the main story, as Vaan's point of view is dull. His story is minor. But Baltier and his moral choices are things we cannot influence.
In jRPGs all we do is walk from point A to B to have a story told to us. There is no choice at all, except in the way you have to defeat the generic monsters on the way. Western RPGs (Morrowind, KOTOR, Fallout, etc.) handle this much better--your choices matter--but there aren't enough of them.
Also:
1. Nonlinear story.
2. Moral choices beyond Schoolboy and Utter Bastard would be nice.
3. Adult protagonists with adult choices.
4. Sex. The median age of gamers is 29. We can handle it.
5. Stop the grinding.
6. More choice in the nature of the protagonist: male/female, straight/gay, old/young, etc.
7. Different settings.
8. Let us make interesting choices. Why can't I use my uber-summons to open that locked door?
9. No more maps on rails.
Mass Effect does a lot of this, and is lauded for it. I just want to see more games like it.
What about skipping the entire Exp / Level System for something like the SP System used in EVE Online? Would resolve some issues like grinding, boring mid- and/or endgame content
RPG's if anything need to be simplified. But if I were to change anything about the genre I'd say hire better writers. I am so sick of boring point A to point B then on to point C scenarios.
The thing I like about RPG's (some of them) is the customization - being able to alter my characters to cater to the style that I want to play. But what ruins most RPG's for me is that, they're like Strategy games - only without the strategy.
I could write a long rant about what I hate about RPG's, and dammit, I'm going to.
Try playing KOTOR, or WoW, and then play Starcraft in a custom "RPG" map where you play as only one character. They really play the same to me in terms of combat. Sure, they're fun for the first five minutes, but then the novelty of leveling up and choosing your character wears out when you realize how limited the combat is. The people who cry out "NOOB" when someone dies are absolute retards, because calling someone a "NOOB" implies that they have no skill, when the damn game doesn't require skill at all.
Take two players in Diablo 2. Have them both play as Paladins with the same level, skills, equipment, etc. Have them fight each other several times, with different players taking control over the Paladins after every fight. Notice how the result is almost the exact same every time, one Paladin wins over the other simply because the little percentages in the Paladin's stats just happened to work in the player's favour.
Now have several groups of two players in Street Fighter 2 playing each other, with all of the players playing as Ryu. The results will be vastly different, because of the players' skills, not because one of the Ryu's happened to magically misfire a Hadouken.
How you can improve upon RPG's is...
Get rid of random chances (stats) - The thing I hate most about RPG's is that when I die, it's not because I made some really stupid mistake, I didn't react quickly enough to an enemy's pointy stick heading in my direction, or I just suck in general - It's because my CHARACTER sucks.
Get rid of random chances (items) - So I played Diablo 2 once and I found this sweet sword in this one place. My character ended up getting deleted somehow, so I made a new one. I go to the same place, kill the same enemies. No Sword. Bullshit.
Get rid of grinding - KOTOR got this right. No respawning enemies, and you reach the level cap by the end of the game. Alternatively, you could fix the problem by having a low level cap that increases as you progress through the game (ie, no getting past level 5 until you've beaten the first boss)
Get rid of random encounters (see Paper Mario) - Random encounters are especially annoying if you're in a dungeon, trying to solve a puzzle, and then all of a sudden, without ANY WARNING WHATSOEVER you have to fight. Then after you're done fighting, you have to try to remember what the hell it was you had to do, or were trying to do before said encounter.
More balance - it seems that a lot of RPG's have a habit of allowing you to combine certain characters/skills/boosts to become godlike. For example, in KOTOR, level up Mission's ability to use a repeating blaster, along with her sneak attack ability (ability to use a gun that hits a lot + ability to do a lot of damage per hit = OWNAGE CANNON), and you'll be bloody unstoppable.
Some people will say that that's strategy. Really, that's not any more of a strategy than massing Carriers in Starcraft. Any shmuck could go to Gamefaqs and look up "insert cookie cutter build here".
And Diablo 2 is full of assholes who, if you have the audacity to play as a Paladin who doesn't use Blessed Hammer, Zeal/Fanaticism, Vengeance/Conviction, etc. will fill your screen with cries of "OMG NOOB U SCK BALLZ." Seriously, one of my conversations went like this
Some Guy: Dude, why are you using a Pally with Charge and Holy Freeze (as opposed to insert cookie cutter build here)?
Me: It's more fun
SG: Okay then, have "fun."
Needless to say, my faith in humanity was shaken that day.
Have the player actually have some control over their characters, besides telling them to "attack (insert enemy here)" or "use (insert item here)". (once again, see Paper Mario). The whole "doing stuff only by moving the analog stick through the menu and pressing A" thing is dull, mainly because it's slow. Megaman X Command Mission had an interesting way of alleviating this. Each attack was assigned to a different button, so instead of selecting "Missile, Missile, Charge Shot" through a menu, you just pressed "X,Y,R." There were also a few action commands ala Paper Mario.
I could write a long rant about what I hate about RPG's, and dammit, I'm going to.
Try playing KOTOR, or WoW, and then play Starcraft in a custom "RPG" map where you play as only one character. They really play the same to me in terms of combat. Sure, they're fun for the first five minutes, but then the novelty of leveling up and choosing your character wears out when you realize how limited the combat is. The people who cry out "NOOB" when someone dies are absolute retards, because calling someone a "NOOB" implies that they have no skill, when the damn game doesn't require skill at all.
Take two players in Diablo 2. Have them both play as Paladins with the same level, skills, equipment, etc. Have them fight each other several times, with different players taking control over the Paladins after every fight. Notice how the result is almost the exact same every time, one Paladin wins over the other simply because the little percentages in the Paladin's stats just happened to work in the player's favour.
Now have several groups of two players in Street Fighter 2 playing each other, with all of the players playing as Ryu. The results will be vastly different, because of the players' skills, not because one of the Ryu's happened to magically misfire a Hadouken.
How you can improve upon RPG's is...
Get rid of random chances (stats) - The thing I hate most about RPG's is that when I die, it's not because I made some really stupid mistake, I didn't react quickly enough to an enemy's pointy stick heading in my direction, or I just suck in general - It's because my CHARACTER sucks.
Get rid of random chances (items) - So I played Diablo 2 once and I found this sweet sword in this one place. My character ended up getting deleted somehow, so I made a new one. I go to the same place, kill the same enemies. No Sword. Bullshit.
Get rid of grinding - KOTOR got this right. No respawning enemies, and you reach the level cap by the end of the game. Alternatively, you could fix the problem by having a low level cap that increases as you progress through the game (ie, no getting past level 5 until you've beaten the first boss)
Get rid of random encounters (see Paper Mario) - Random encounters are especially annoying if you're in a dungeon, trying to solve a puzzle, and then all of a sudden, without ANY WARNING WHATSOEVER you have to fight. Then after you're done fighting, you have to try to remember what the hell it was you had to do, or were trying to do before said encounter.
More balance - it seems that a lot of RPG's have a habit of allowing you to combine certain characters/skills/boosts to become godlike. For example, in KOTOR, level up Mission's ability to use a repeating blaster, along with her sneak attack ability (ability to use a gun that hits a lot + ability to do a lot of damage per hit = OWNAGE CANNON), and you'll be bloody unstoppable.
Some people will say that that's strategy. Really, that's not any more of a strategy than massing Carriers in Starcraft. Any shmuck could go to Gamefaqs and look up "insert cookie cutter build here".
And Diablo 2 is full of assholes who, if you have the audacity to play as a Paladin who doesn't use Blessed Hammer, Zeal/Fanaticism, Vengeance/Conviction, etc. will fill your screen with cries of "OMG NOOB U SCK BALLZ." Seriously, one of my conversations went like this
Some Guy: Dude, why are you using a Pally with Charge and Holy Freeze (as opposed to insert cookie cutter build here)?
Me: It's more fun
SG: Okay then, have "fun."
Needless to say, my faith in humanity was shaken that day.
Have the player actually have some control over their characters, besides telling them to "attack (insert enemy here)" or "use (insert item here)". (once again, see Paper Mario). The whole "doing stuff only by moving the analog stick through the menu and pressing A" thing is dull, mainly because it's slow. Megaman X Command Mission had an interesting way of alleviating this. Each attack was assigned to a different button, so instead of selecting "Missile, Missile, Charge Shot" through a menu, you just pressed "X,Y,R." There were also a few action commands ala Paper Mario.
Menu based combat has never bothered me-- then again, I'm not one of those foaming-at-the-mouth-when-I'm-not-smashing-buttons types. Perhaps they could enhance the strategic elements of menu combat. Too often you have one skill/spell that you use over and over in every enemy encounter until you win. You should be forced to think about each action you take-- bypass defenses (and not just that "red monster is weak against ice magic" shit-- something much more complex) position yourself for an advantage and all that neat stuff. Also, I think random encounters should just die-- they've overstayed their welcome. I agree with the poster who said that the unrestrained massacre of thousands upon thousands of enemies without any real motivation (aside from XP) is dull.
But the most important part of an RPG, in my opinion, is an involving story with likable characters. Hire new/better writers! There are legions of creative, witty, gamer-savvy writers out there who, given the chance, could turn out the script for the next hit game.
But the most important part of an RPG, in my opinion, is an involving story with likable characters. Hire new/better writers! There are legions of creative, witty, gamer-savvy writers out there who, given the chance, could turn out the script for the next hit game.
Get rid of levels and experience. You acquire skills through a guild or from teachers in remote areas (for higher level skills) and they train you or give you missions to get better.
More varied level design. Instead of big squares with different scenery like MMO's or the same tunnel system with different textures on the walls like Oblivion really customize each zone. I'd even say continue with the sandbox design but really sell the landscape and especially the scale. Nothing killed a zone for me like taking six steps and suddenly you were wandering around a snow zone then backing up six steps and you're in a rainforest.
If you have to create a main quest then make it accessible to everyone (hello Oblivion, way to fail at that one!). Unless you were a beastly tank that main quest was a pain in the butt plus the Oblivion gates were so boring after you did four or five. Woo, there is lava, the same monsters as the last one, and you have to do the same thing to get out... I'd also like to see less "Save the world" main quests to be perfectly honest. Seriously, I'd like to take over the world for once or maybe massacre a few towns with thatched roof cottages!
I like the trend toward customization but I'd rather the customization occur in game instead of before it starts. Let me choose my hair color and so on but start me with a blank slate and let me go from there. No skill points which I will inevitably screw up and no choosing my class right from the beginning. Maybe keep different races with a predisposition towards magic or smashing but don't make it overwhelming. I think Orcs should be just as capable of throwing fireballs as elves.
I think some kind of interactivity in the battle system would be welcome. I have no idea how to accomplish it but pushing a single button to throw a fireball or swing a sword feels somehow...cheap.
Also, for whoever said more RPG's should adopt the SP system I say: "Hell no!". My God, I've never encountered a more boring and pointless system of gaining skill as that. I quit EVE specifically because of that system and the fact that it restricted my growth severely for months after I started and I had to pay constant attention to it so I didn't waste entire days of experience gain.
More varied level design. Instead of big squares with different scenery like MMO's or the same tunnel system with different textures on the walls like Oblivion really customize each zone. I'd even say continue with the sandbox design but really sell the landscape and especially the scale. Nothing killed a zone for me like taking six steps and suddenly you were wandering around a snow zone then backing up six steps and you're in a rainforest.
If you have to create a main quest then make it accessible to everyone (hello Oblivion, way to fail at that one!). Unless you were a beastly tank that main quest was a pain in the butt plus the Oblivion gates were so boring after you did four or five. Woo, there is lava, the same monsters as the last one, and you have to do the same thing to get out... I'd also like to see less "Save the world" main quests to be perfectly honest. Seriously, I'd like to take over the world for once or maybe massacre a few towns with thatched roof cottages!
I like the trend toward customization but I'd rather the customization occur in game instead of before it starts. Let me choose my hair color and so on but start me with a blank slate and let me go from there. No skill points which I will inevitably screw up and no choosing my class right from the beginning. Maybe keep different races with a predisposition towards magic or smashing but don't make it overwhelming. I think Orcs should be just as capable of throwing fireballs as elves.
I think some kind of interactivity in the battle system would be welcome. I have no idea how to accomplish it but pushing a single button to throw a fireball or swing a sword feels somehow...cheap.
Also, for whoever said more RPG's should adopt the SP system I say: "Hell no!". My God, I've never encountered a more boring and pointless system of gaining skill as that. I quit EVE specifically because of that system and the fact that it restricted my growth severely for months after I started and I had to pay constant attention to it so I didn't waste entire days of experience gain.
over exaggeration is what makes them funny i like'em American games are boring nothing but replayed wars, violence, tits, gangs, & over decorated cars <--DUBsFrapple said:
and on grinding: to quote Yahtzee: "taking the grind out of games is like trying to take the crazy out of Richard Garrat. Grind is the reason most people come back to games like WoW, and Final Fantasy"
Let's take this to its logical conclusion, shall we? Let's say you played an RPG with no random battles at all (As in, every time you played you would fight Battle A here and Battle B there, and once they were over they were over) and after every one of these pre-determined battles you would receive a pre-determined amount of EXP, and the exact same item or items no matter how many times you played the game. This EXP would be doled out in quantities sufficient enough to make sure that if you didn't do any side-quests at any point, your character or party would always be capable of handling the next fight, but that if you were to do every single side-quest, you would reach the maximum level cap just before the final boss fight.
And, of course, if you actually didn't want to help Mrs. Windy Oldbag get her cat Fluffykins down from that tree, I suppose getting the same amount of EXP or whatever no matter the conclusion to the quest could ward against forcing every single player, regardless of 'alignment', into doing every single quest for every single peasant incapable of solving their own problems.
It would, however, result in players choosing the easiest possible way to their free experience, whether that be from murdering Oldbag in broad daylight or immolating Fluffykins and the tree.
Now I'm getting nostalgic for the combat system in Secret of Mana.