Hulk liked the ME3 ending

[DioWallachia]

No, obviously I would not do that. I don't know how I would do it. Does it matter? I don't understand what you are asking of me.

I doing the usual "Oh yeah? Lets see YOU do better than me" kind of response that the assholes on Bioware WANT to say but dont have the balls to say it.

I am just asking you that, if you had to make an ending with a message that basically saids that it doesn't matter if the organics and machines and EVERY race on the universe is together because "History Repeats Itself", how would you do it? What kind of argument would you use to convince yourself (and the rest of the fanbase) that such claim may actually be legit even against the OVERWHELMING evidence gathered by 3 games at this point?

And dont tell me that "I dont know, i am not a professional writer" because apparently on the Internet, everyone is professional on saying HOW something sucks but they dont do something to fix it (except the Indoctrination Theory) And if we, the humble audience of these games, are able to say how something does and doesnt work for free, compared to a bunch of people that got PAID for doing so, then it is safe to say that we CAN reach a conclusion.

 

[A.A.K]

I also really liked the original Mass Effect 3 Ending....I don't understand the hate for it. It was necessary.

 

[DioWallachia]

I also really liked the original Mass Effect 3 Ending....I don't understand the hate for it. It was necessary.

Necessary to make MOAR money or because a Deus Ex Machina is necessary so i can leave work early and buy a sandwich?

 

[Rooster Cogburn]

No, obviously I would not do that. I don't know how I would do it. Does it matter? I don't understand what you are asking of me.

I doing the usual "Oh yeah? Lets see YOU do better than me" kind of response that the assholes on Bioware WANT to say but dont have the balls to say it.

I am just asking you that, if you had to make an ending with a message that basically saids that it doesn't matter if the organics and machines and EVERY race on the universe is together because "History Repeats Itself", how would you do it? What kind of argument would you use to convince yourself (and the rest of the fanbase) that such claim may actually be legit even against the OVERWHELMING evidence gathered by 3 games at this point?

I suppose I would explain why Shepard's role in bringing about the cycle was significant and unique. I would try to demonstrate contrast between the good Shepard has accomplished and the sadness of pursuing a hopeful but impossible goal. I would reveal that the Reapers were in fact constructed from the tissue of an ancient race who sacrificed themselves to postpone an existential threat brought about by the Mass Effect, and all subsequent harvests were necessary to save the universe for another cycle and preserve the memory of the dead races in the form of new Reapers built from their tissue and possessing their traits. [Full Disclosure: some of you may recognize this from other sources. I am 'borrowing' and adapting it for my purpose here. According to some, something like this was the story the original Mass Effect writers intended. Supposedly there was something about humans that created hope the cycle could be ended in that original version.]

Giving the player choices at this point is a problem because the theme of unpreventable doom does not leave much wiggle room. I think I would give the player choices like deciding in what way the currently existing races would be preserved into the future after their destruction or at all. I would give them the option to end the cycle knowing full well it would eventually mean the end of all things. I would also throw in a few choices regarding the role and fate of specific team members in this hideous process.

***

But... why are you asking me how to do the very thing I say shouldn't be done? lol. I typed all that because it sounded like an interesting challenge, and because you asked me to. It is my best effort at fulfilling your parameters, and maybe somebody could turn it into something that works. But it is not the most fitting end for this story precisely BECAUSE it jams an 'arrogance of man before the gods' message where it does not belong. In the last ten minutes of a totally different story. It conflicts with the message and themes of everything that came before. That conflict is what I was trying to bring attention to. 99% of the series tells me a little brain power and daring-do can overcome all obstacles. I am the master of my own fate. The last 1% says Jonah cannot escape God's plan. That is not good.

And dont tell me that "I dont know, i am not a professional writer" because apparently on the Internet, everyone is professional on saying HOW something sucks but they dont do something to fix it (except the Indoctrination Theory) And if we, the humble audience of these games, are able to say how something does and doesnt work for free, compared to a bunch of people that got PAID for doing so, then it is safe to say that we CAN reach a conclusion.

Look man, I don't fix the leak. I don't even know why it's leaking. I just get the plumber to fix it. That's what he's there for.

 

[DioWallachia]

SNIP

Here is the thing, if we can fix this kind of problem to make some sense out of it then why are we even buying games/stories out of them? At this point is clear that the audience KNOWS exactly what kind of issues and concepts they want to explore and have the tools to achieve that, so what is the point of just crossing the fingers and hope for some incompetent morons and a bunch of Suits to actually give us something that we can achieve on our own?

"Look man, I don't fix the leak. I don't even know why it's leaking. I just get the plumber to fix it. That's what he's there for. "

But you can fix it faster and recite Shakespeare while doing so. Can that plumber do that? can he AT LEAST shot fireballs after picking up a flower? i dont think so.

Seriously, did the people get smarter or the writing in every medium just became stagnate? Because if we got smarter then we may as well found some kind of Writer League were we sell scripts that we do for shit and giggles out of boredom.

I want to leave this video before i go to the next question in the future:

 

[The Heik]

So, Film Critic Hulk (for those who are not familiar with him, he's a incredibly insightful critic of movies, especially considering he writes in all caps in Hulk-speak; he commented on games on occasion) liked the ending of ME3, even the original ending, and wrote an essay defending it. As always, it's a very interesting read even if you don't agree with him. Well, maybe not for people who can't appreciate good arguments unless they agree with them. Here it is:

Film Crit Hulk Smash: A Few Words On The Ending Of MASS EFFECT 3 [http://badassdigest.com/2012/08/06/film-crit-hulk-smash-a-few-words-on-the-ending-of-mass-effect-3/]

I agree that it is an interesting read, but I certainly don't agree with FCH on the Mass Effect ending being good simply due to artistic thematic merit.

You see, there really are two major issues with the ME3 ending that get in the way of those themes

1) Themes over execution. As much as the ideas portrayed in ME3 are interesting and thought provoking, the sheer number of plot holes and technical issues get in the way of those themes. It's best equated to a new car design. Though the vehicle might have some cool ideas and features, if the overall schematic is not thought through the car is likely to fall apart around you the first time you take it for a drive. In order for themes to properly get displayed they must stand upon a solid foundation of cohesive experiences to ensure that those themes are given every inch they deserve, else it all gets lost amid the mess and only most scrutinizing individuals will spot them.

If we sacrifice cohesion and detail for high concept, all we get are artistic films, and I've had enough university art classes to know that no one wants stuff like that to be considered the benchmark for creative excellence. Seriously, go watch the [a href="http://olympic-swim.blogspot.ca/2009/02/cremaster-cycle-by-matthew-barney.html"]Cremaster Cycle[/a] which is considered to be among the creme de la creme for artistic themes. If we let bad execution continue in our media, then THAT is the kind of thing we're going to have to expect in common media at some point *shudder*

2)The role of the player. I've said this to so many people and I'll say evermore, when you give narrative power to the player you make the resulting story as much their as it is yours. In older games the primary player character usually is already defined, with their own name, looks and personality, so players are just piggy-backing in the mind of that character to experience the story. But with Mass Effect BioWare gave the player an unprecedented level of control over the main character. They gave control of Shepard's name, gender, looks, personality, combat style, romances, and ultimately their fate and the fate of the entire galaxy. Now when BioWare did that, they should have realized that what they just did meant that the player was the driving force in the series' narrative, which meant that any event that occurred to the player character also affected the player themselves, so a high degree of investment into that character and their outcome in the story is pretty much guaranteed.

So when BioWare deiced to take control of the narrative reigns away from the player at the end, forcing the player into decisions that most permutations of the established character wouldn't even think of making, then their control over who the character is, and by extension who the player is destroyed. To remind, this series was one where could pull off a pretty much flawless run where Shepard can practically do no wrong, yet can also give the player the option to fail so miserably that they can't even use their character in the final installment. When you give that amount of control and consequence to the player, you can't just take it away at the last minute and expect everyone to be fine with it. Again, there are players who slaved to get the best ending possible only to be faced with options that would be considered melancholy at best, which would make those players justifiably upset considering the amount of investment (both time and money) put into the series.

And it mystifies me that FCH would say that the world at large wasn't ready for artistic ideas in games, when the huge reaction to the end is such an great example of investment in the story, ergo the community's readiness to open ourselves to the experience and grow from it. It's simply that the first franchise we were given that could have scratched that new itch failed 10 minutes from final completion, clawing at the heavens only to fly too close too the sun and crash to the ground.

 

[CarlsonAndPeeters]

Also, a bad final moment leaves a sour taste, but it in NO WAY makes the 3 games worth of epicness and choice worthless. I think those two points are incredibly important.

You're right, it doesn't make everything that came before worthless. It doesn't rob everything that came before of the craft that went into it, nor does it retroactively steal the experiences you have had. But it may rob what came before of it's emotional impact now, or put it in a bad or disappointing light. A story is one of those things that is more than the sum of it's parts. Sometimes audiences forgive certain failings, sometimes they don't. Hard for me to say exactly why, even for myself. A multitude of reasons, probably.

EDIT: I probably should add that a story with good individual parts can be bad because those parts contradict or disagree somehow.

See, what you've presented is a logical and sensible way to argue that the ending can hurt the series. We need more of that on the internet and less "BioWare stole my money and lied to me and made all the fun times I had playing Mass Effect magically not fun." But I can only dream...

 

[DioWallachia]

I got news for you, Mr. Hulk. If the Mass Effect 3 ending is "art" then so does Transformers 2 Revenge of The Fallen. It isn't "so bad its horrible", its "so bad its ART".

http://io9.com/5301898/michael-bay-finally-made-an-art-movie

See? This is what happens when you try to defend shit like the ME3 Ending. More idiots will jump on defend crap like that.

And lets face it, if THAT fucking thing somehow manages to be art and videogames still dont have any merit, then its clear that this world NEEDS to be purged from its evil, because there is something wrong beyond human comprehension to allow such thing to be.

 

[DioWallachia]

The question is though, if you've written a beautiful story with richness in both themes and meaning (assuming, hypothetically that that's the case here), but 99/100 people watching it either don't get the point of it or mistake the point for something else, can you still say it's well written?

I kinda talked about this on this post of mine:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.381428-How-would-YOU-handle-this-piece-of-vital-information-symbolism#15021716

All i got from that is that the movie NEEDS to stand on its own before recurring to hidden themes to begin with.

If we look at the work from a TECHNICAL point of view, then yeah, it is well written because everything IS in its place for the people to look answers into it.

 

[DioWallachia]

I also really liked the original Mass Effect 3 Ending....I don't understand the hate for it. It was necessary.

Here is a solid counter argument on the ending and maaaaaany more.

 

[ultrachicken]

I'm not even going to go into them whipping out the ultimate deus ex machina at the last possible second...

Not to pick on you or anything, but I go into a bloodrage whenever this complaint is raised.

Mass Effect's namesake and opening narration establishes that humanity, and every space-faring species in the galaxy has reached their status by utilizing this technology. We later see people using hard-light interfaces, much later used to stab people. With light. The main antagonists are sentient robots sometimes kilometers long that fire massive lasers capable of instantly destroying starships and with metal hides capable of stopping basically anything, and traveling to and from dark space without relays. The crucible is first introduced as a method of inexplicably destroying the reapers.

If you check the codex, you'll find little to no explanation for these marvelous feats of technology.

So what is one of the most prominent running themes of the Mass Effect universe?

Humanity going beyond its understanding.

This is evident in how so much of the technology (mostly "prothean" tech) is incomprehensible to us, and how we are newcomers in an ancient, galactic civilization, whose politics and history go beyond us. How our enemies are, for most of the series, a complete mystery. Our spacefaring is akin to cavemen playing with fire, in that we use this tool to an extent that it becomes necessary in our lives, yet we haven't the slightest idea how it works.

So when the Crucible fired its magical explosion that destroyed all robots, or controlled the reapers, or synthesized organics and robots, not only were we warned of this type of conclusion from before we set foot on Mars, it was completely appropriate given what happened in the other games.

Because every time Shepard shanks a mook with his/her light blade, or tosses a fireball, or travels faster than light, the same kind of storytelling is being used, just on a smaller scale.

*Ahem*

I would disagree with "Hulk" regarding the prevalence of cycles in Mass Effect. I don't recall any cycles of love or revenge, only the overarching threat of another destruction of galactic civilization.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

Except that the ME series was always just Space Opera popcorn flicks. Bioware just decided to try to get deep at the end. So I have no idea where he is pulling most of this from.

 

[Baron von Blitztank]

Space Crabs try destroy Hulk? HULK SMASH PUNY SPACE CRABS! HULK IS STRONGEST ONE THERE IS!

I wonder if that would have made Mass Effect 3 any better? Or atleast a lot shorter...

 

[Savo]

I'm not even going to go into them whipping out the ultimate deus ex machina at the last possible second...

Not to pick on you or anything, but I go into a bloodrage whenever this complaint is raised.

Mass Effect's namesake and opening narration establishes that humanity, and every space-faring species in the galaxy has reached their status by utilizing this technology. We later see people using hard-light interfaces, much later used to stab people. With light. The main antagonists are sentient robots sometimes kilometers long that fire massive lasers capable of instantly destroying starships and with metal hides capable of stopping basically anything, and traveling to and from dark space without relays. The crucible is first introduced as a method of inexplicably destroying the reapers.

If you check the codex, you'll find little to no explanation for these marvelous feats of technology.

So what is one of the most prominent running themes of the Mass Effect universe?

Humanity going beyond its understanding.

This is evident in how so much of the technology (mostly "prothean" tech) is incomprehensible to us, and how we are newcomers in an ancient, galactic civilization, whose politics and history go beyond us. How our enemies are, for most of the series, a complete mystery. Our spacefaring is akin to cavemen playing with fire, in that we use this tool to an extent that it becomes necessary in our lives, yet we haven't the slightest idea how it works.

So when the Crucible fired its magical explosion that destroyed all robots, or controlled the reapers, or synthesized organics and robots, not only were we warned of this type of conclusion from before we set foot on Mars, it was completely appropriate given what happened in the other games.

Because every time Shepard shanks a mook with his/her light blade, or tosses a fireball, or travels faster than light, the same kind of storytelling is being used, just on a smaller scale.

*Ahem*

I get what you're saying, but it doesn't make the ending any better for me personally.

See, it's not that it's unbelievable that ruins it for me. It is ridiculous even by ME standards, but it's more the fact that it's so random and out of line with the series theme of choices.

To expand a little more, let me compare the Crucible and the Catalyst. Some people didn't like the Crucible because it was a cliche super-weapon that served the purpose of cleaning up the reapers, but it didn't receive a fraction of the complaints Star-kid and his nonsense at the end did.

To me, what made the ending such a failure was that it sprung a major plot point right at the end to clear up all loose ends in one fell swoop and reduce the amount of work Bioware would have to do to create multiple endings. Bioware at least spent much of the game building up the Crucible, letting you fight for it, and then purposing it in the final battle. It's still kinda an ultimate weapon cop-out, but if feels much more natural than the ZOMGWTFHAX twist that so many people got offended at in the current ending.

Fighting for years and finally having the fate of all existence on the line and then having some kid come up to you in the last 15 minutes and say "HAI I'm the catalyst bro, let's fix all this shit with some A-grade space magic! Now coming in three colors!" is on a whole different level from "X number of years in the future, technology has advanced to where we can do all this crazy stuff that makes no scientific sense", which we have been accepting for the last three games.

It's kinda weird, both are utterly ridiculous, but I guess we just take those technology things for granted when we enjoy science fiction.

But yeah, you do raise some interesting points, it's one of the better takes on the ending I've heard lately. On another note, do you like or dislike the ending? I got the vibe that you were a fan of the ending, but you didn't explicitly say either way.