I am a feminist....and this is hilarious.

[Vault101]

Man, if I had a dollar every time I saw someone say that they "were fine with better representation of women in games, but they didn't want strictly enforced quotas." That's like saying "I think we should do more to help the poor, BUT I don't think it should be legal for a poor person to murder a rich person." Like, it's okay dude, I promise you don't have to worry about that.

but if a creative decision is made in the name of profit then thats ok then...


[quote/]
And people who argue against Anita (and Zoey, and every other female who dares to question some part of geekdom) are arguing with all of feminism, for the most part. It's painfully clear in all of the online discussions that I've seen that a large part of the gaming community has serious issues with the core ideas of feminism, and they'll nitpick and debate every single little thing that comes out of these women's mouths. It's not out some quest for the truth, it's because they are made seriously uncomfortable by the fact that women face some extreme inequalities in our society, and that they might be unknowingly partly responsible.

Like, I'd LOVE to have a discussion about Anita's videos with someone who didn't obviously have it in for her from the very beginning.
.[/quote]

I feel like thease discussions DO happen and have been....within those feminist/safe spaces

outside its pointless variations of "what about the menz/its not a thing, pack it up and go home"

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

I don't see how feminism can somehow damage or harm gaming no matter what kind of brand of it happens to be at the time. So long as people hold that activism is nothing more than blogging posts on Tumblr, liking Facebook statuses, following people on Twitter, or pretty much anything other than going outside and actually doing something, feminism or any other -ism won't really go far in video games. People aren't compelled to change something just because they got a list of a few thousand names. There's a reason why people say you should start something yourself.

 

[Vault101]

The problem i have with feminisim is that i see a lot of people doing a lot of awful stuff and claiming its in the name of feminism inmediately followed by other people claiming its not feminism and they are not real feminists and i have a question : how come this people are not feminist?

I don't know about anyone else but Anna Sarsekeian is a femninst...now do I agree with her? I don't know...does she speak for the entire movment? Hell no, its bigger than her

[quote/]so if i support feminism who the hell am i supporting? what am i supporting? you shuld figure that out, you should all figure that out, before expecting to be taken seriously[/quote]
your supporting whatever conclusions you've come too

there is no one unified doctrine in feminsim, there never has been, there are certain ideas that encompass a lot of it

 

[carnex]

What what I'm going to say here already said on this topic? I said it several times already in other places but it's warranted again.

There is no disconnect or dismissal of self proclaimed feminists who do and advocate most ridiculous and/or horrible things. Those persons are loudest and most seen out of all therefor they are a forefront, a shopping window of movement. And I don't see much in attempts to distance from those individuals.

Fact is, term feminist is irreversibly tainted with horrible ideas and policies. As I said before, it's not by chance that new movements fighting for equal rights pop up everywhere. Hell, feminist even protest them to...

 

[Phasmal]

I got out of that mad thread while I still could (I know some people have quoted me since then but considering it's now forty fucking pages, I'll respectably pass). Kind of funny when you go off and then a thread has exploded and you've been quoted a bunch of times.

It does seem strange how we're the big bad.
There's not much you can do, though, other than laugh.

Honestly, I don't think I'll ever understand why it makes some people so angry. But that is entirely their deal.
Does make me wonder what conversing with such people in real life would be like.

 

[TheIceQueen]

I am a Yakobist and I really need more publicity for my movement.

You are right about that. Googling that gets me nothing. Adding "movement" to the search only brings me to your post here. So, I guess if you want publicity, you should talk about it and tell other Yakobists to do so as well in their respective corners.

OT: I think that part of the deal is that feminism is possibly starting a fourth wave, but isn't quite that solid yet. It's young and immature, not quite sure of itself yet as many different ideologies try and set the pavement down, making it much like the teens and younger adults that make up the movement. There's no solid idea yet and so it's quite easy for opponents to shoot at a movement that's a little too vague and all-encompassing, which means it's also too easy for certain proponents who are quite awful to get lumped in with more innocuous ideas, especially to those who aren't as aware. Any young movement like that is going to face such critcisms and concerns, many of which are valid and many of which are not. It certainly doesn't help that gaming is in a similar phase as well.

Of course this is assuming the existence of a new wave. There might not be one.

 

[Grahav]

Violence in games don't cause violence but fanservice in games cause misoginy so it should be banned.

The problem some gamers have with feminism is the same problem gamers had with Mortal Kombat censors.

 

[Caiphus]

I'm not sure I find it so hilarious unfortunately, but I'm glad that you manage to take it in stride, OP.

I'd probably consider myself a feminist and I find it rather frustrating if I'm honest. Would like to be able to see the funny side though.

 

[Ferisar]

Violence in games don't cause violence but fanservice in games cause misoginy so it should be banned.

The problem some gamers have with feminism is the same problem gamers had with Mortal Kombat censors.

Except violence is a very inclusive concept. We're not alienating dead people by propagating violence in video games. The whole violence discussion is honestly on a rather different plane of existence then this one. Outfitting female characters in pandering nonsense while reducing them to ogle-bait and stripping (get it GET IT?) their characters in terms of development doesn't really paint a good picture. Pandering is fine, we do it and will always do it, it's just funny that people wave hands and scoff at the notion that playing as "white-boy-mcgee" while surrounded by the supporting cast of "tits-chick-mcDoubleD" is not at all stifling or a bit weird for anyone. Like, sure, do that, just don't do it as a recognizable pattern within the entirety of gaming.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

This is the kind of shit i like to hear. Actual proper feminism, just "Equal rights for men and women", nothing more, nothing less. But then you get these human canisters of feces running around screaming full on retarded ideas and saying it's all in the name of feminism, i.e. cultural appropriation, 'choosing' your gender, white privilege, straight privilege, male privilege, bigotry and discrimination against the last 3 mentioned groups and how it "can't" happen. Holy shit on a stick, the list goes on and on.

However, there has been very little in the way of counter by other feminists to these nutbags, thus they are at the forefront and all anyone sees anymore.


On another note, the reason "that thread" has exploded (from what I have seen) is because everyone refuses to stop wilfully interpreting the other side's argument.

The "pro-Zoey" side are saying the "anti-Zoey"s are angry because she's a woman/feminist, whereas their actual argument is about dishonesty in game 'jounalism' (not investigating the story properly, censoring everything about the story). Honestly, if there was no one trying to censor this, it'd be in the headlines for less than a week.

The "anti-Zoey" side keeps construing the "pro-Zoey"s as only taking her side because she's a woman/feminist/far-left, as are they.
I'm not actually sure what their real argument is... can someone tell me? I don't want to go back there.

 

[KingsGambit_v1legacy]

I only say this because people keep separating the two as if someone can't be both or as if someone can't be a gamer that eventually became a feminist, whilst retaining their 'gaming' roots. Like all hours they spent gaming and all knowledge of the games they loved got zapped out of their heads after they read their first pro-feminist words.

How does a hobby in any way preclude one from having a political opinion? So one can't read and vote? One can't watch movies and be an environmentalist? No one suggested the two were incompatible.

I don't understand any of the rest of what you wrote. I'm not sure what the comparison to real world violence being "caused" by games was meant to show.

Anyway, be a feminist if it is your thing. It's an outdated, irrelevant and swiftly declining movement that I among the majority will be glad to see the back of. It causes more problems and inequality than it is supposedly against and is a poisonous dogma that does nothing to help people today.

 

[visiblenoise]

I really, really thought that the analogy was going to be between people worrying about violence in real life caused by video games, versus people worrying about misogyny in real life caused by video games (I suppose it's more of a simple parallel than an analogy). Surely that one makes more sense? Whether you agree with it or not?

 

[Ryan Hughes]

As far as this whole "Zoey" person, who I've never really heard of until now, this does seem to be a clear case of argument ad hominem, rather than any real attempt to address a grievance. But I do disagree that this surfaces in contention to anti-orthodoxy in gaming. Really, this goes beyond that. Any attempt to properly discuss what is called "feminism" is loudly shouted down with such vitriol, and no real ideology can explain that. I honestly have no idea what is at the heart of the matter, or what causes such actions by a few people, but it is baffling to see.

There is no disconnect or dismissal of self proclaimed feminists who do and advocate most ridiculous and/or horrible things. Those persons are loudest and most seen out of all therefor they are a forefront, a shopping window of movement. And I don't see much in attempts to distance from those individuals.

Fact is, term feminist is irreversibly tainted with horrible ideas and policies. As I said before, it's not by chance that new movements fighting for equal rights pop up everywhere. Hell, feminist even protest them to...

"Feminist" is simply a blanket term given to a set of views, and there are many examples going all the way back to the early 1900s of feminists disagreeing on many things, including birth control and prohibition. The problem is assuming that one person can "control" the word feminist, and invite or ostracize as they choose. No one can do that, and there is actually a tremendous friction between from more moderate forms of feminism and some more radical forms. However, in order to find these discussions you cannot rely on major media outlets, as they lack any sort of nuance capable of this distinction.

I consider myself to be a feminist, but I also happen to be male. I assure people that I am well aware of some rather distasteful concepts that sometimes appear within the blanket-term of feminism, and that I really do agree that men have some serious issues in modern culture that lead to grievance. However, there is no denying the systematic oppression or ostracizing of women that has been going on for nearly 4,000 years of human history, and it is the utmost arrogance to say that this does not still have lasting effects in modernity. Many of the distasteful concepts of feminism are found in radical, outlying portions of the movement, and yet are often held as representative of the whole.

The most damning evidence of this social bias towards men tend to come in historical accounts of women gaining somewhat more equal roles in society, usually after a social catastrophe. For example, after the black death swept Europe circa the 14th century, women actually gained quite a lot in terms of social equality, if for no other reason that society could not support itself while oppressing half of its own remaining population. This is evidence that oppression tends to be something of a social "luxury," that cannot be afforded in times of crisis. However, the backlash against women of the middle ages came swiftly in the so-called renaissance, once the population and commodity trade began to stabilize. Pope Innocent VIII decided to blame famine in northern Europe on what he called "witches," something the church had denied the existence of until then, and a few years later the Malleus Maleficarum was written, and we were back to another state of oppression.

My point being that the modern resistance to feminism at large is quite literally a witch-hunt in the truest sense of the term: a distraction from actual, pressing concerns and grievances misdirected at those who are not only innocent, but often themselves victims.

 

[AkaDad]

This is my take on why there's so much anger towards feminists and minorities.

Since the beginning, white men have been in control of all aspects of life, but generation after generation we lose a little bit more power to control things. Women got the right to vote, we passed the civil rights act, gay marriage is becoming the law and so forth.

The same thing is happening with the gaming industry. What used to be mostly made up of young males, we now see more women and minority gamers and they're asking for representation in games and white men are lashing out because they're not being catered to like they used to. They feel feminists and non-whites are taking away their power and they're freaking out.

Women make up over 50% of the population and in 25-30 years non-whites are going to be the majority in America. White men see the writing on the wall and they're helpless to do anything about it. Women and non-whites are eventually going to be on equal footing, something white males have never experienced before, hence the anger.

I know what I've said will offend and anger some people, but progress is inevitable, anger and blame isn't going to change that.

 

[Mikeybb]

So why is it funny?

Because Feminism and social justice movements/almost anything non-cooperative to the norm that's done by a feminist are to Gaming...what Gaming and school shootings were to the media/news outlets just a few years prior.

I may be wrong on this, but I remember a person Identifying as a feminist who claimed that misogyny in games resulted in gamers internalizing misogynistic beliefs.
Games making gamers sexist?
Anyway, I can't remember the article, or the writer in question, but I do know it was discussed on this forum some time around april ( I glanced in it, back in my lurking days).

Just a point I wanted to raise.
As you said, feminism isn't a singular entity.
You're not the borg (despite claims from some that resistance is futile).
They get cooler accessories and free laser pointers.

I'd also like to say, there's some interesting stuff to think about in your post and anyone who calls for discourse is always deserving of respect.

I do find myself wondering if sometimes the reason for a lot of the drama and arguments comes from people, on both sides, taking a partisan attitude to their own ideological leaning.
In that I mean, they will oppose a person based on their ideologies, or defend against such opposition based on their ideologies matching closely, without first engaging with any points that are actually made.
That and sometimes people react to an attack on a point they've made as an attack on their whole self.

 

[Gorrath]

Well, as with all radical movements (read: controversial, not radical as in crazy) a whole lot of people either don't know what the core ideology of Feminism is or can't agree what it even should be. I accept as a matter of fact that Feminism is a movement based around the notion that men and women should not be discriminated against because of their sex. This ideology would foster equality among people and help maximize freedom, understanding and co-operation. All of that is laudable and so I would not have any problem at all identifying with that movement.

But, as we know, many people do not accept that as the definition of Feminism. Many people try to attach all sorts of other things to the movement. Many people involved with the movement who do accept that as the definition actually push for things that directly work against that definition. And so what we end up with is a huge cluster of ideas ranging from absolutely brilliant to totally insane.

Like with so many movements, Feminism and by extension, MRA, neither get to control nor cull the people nor the ideas that get attached to these movements. And so Feminism will plod along, burdened and yet propelled by every facet of its being. Humans seek truth, even if we have a hard time seeing it, and the truth is women and men are equals in a fair and just society. The core ideal of Feminism becoming accepted is inevitable if slow process so long as we work toward that fair and just society.

As for how any of this pertains to the Zoe incident; she, for better or for worse, became closely associated with gaming and feminism. Details about her game and the alleged harassment she received from Wizardchan were reported on. She was supported and Wizardchan condemned. She spoke out on a lot of issues and appears to have been rather a hypocrite if the allegations against her are true. So, predictably, the close association between her and gaming and feminism is used as fuel by those who denounce feminism. Those who do that of course are engaging in a logical fallacy. Finding fault with a feminist or even every feminist ever in no way invalidates the ideology. Ideas can and should be assessed on their own merits, free of the people who support them.

Of course that would be bad enough, but then we also have some pro-feminist people engaging in their own logical fallacies in response by trying to link any condemnation of Zoe to a condemnation of feminism. Some feminists rightly say that Zoe is not feminism and that her actions have nothing to do with the ideology no matter if she holds feminist ideas is or was closely related to the movement. Other feminists will agree with that notion and then promptly accuse anyone condemning Zoe for any of her actions as being a woman-hating bigot.

And so, everyone gets the scapegoat they want, everyone gets the controversy they want, everyone gets to condemn who they want while shouting about how, "this all just proves how right they are." I'm not actually engaging in cynicism here though. For those who choose to engage these topics with an open mind and try to leave themselves open to real debate, even something as incendiary as the Zoe incident can be a tool for learning, proper discourse and engaging debate.

 

[Thaluikhain]

in 25-30 years non-whites are going to be the majority in America.

To clarify, if every single ethnicity over than white was to be counted together for some reason, there will be more of them than white people. Implication being that every PoC can be lumped together in a homogenous mass of not being white.

Now, not saying that's what you personally meant, but that's a sentiment that's quite commonly seen.

(Also interesting that this includes mixed racial people)

 

[william12123]

The analogy used by the OP seems apt in many situations, where the person's feminism doesnt really have much relevance to the issue (as in the case of Zoegate). Since in a lot of the school shootings the shooters just happened to be gamers, it wasnt really relevant. (Though, as others have pointed out, the arguers in the Zoegate thing seem to be talking past each other, so I really dont know what to say about it).

For the more "risqué" aspects, I guess you could compare the statements of Anders Brevick (the Danish mass shooter who claimed to use CoD as "training" for the shooting) with those (hopefully few) fringe feminists who advocate violence/abuse of males as feminism (luckily, I have only seen such statements on tumblr, so I'm not too worried. The actual academic movements are a lot less violent). In the end, it's evil/disturbed INDIVIDUALS (I am trying to avoid "crazy" since it isn't necessarily the case) channellings their evil through the communities they identify with.

(If you ever want to be depressed about humanity, check out the "tumblr in action" reddit, a nice collection of screenshots of marginalized groups threatening (with death, torture, etc.) other members of marginalized groups for not being marginalized in the right way. It's very depressing)

Still, this is general human behavior. We always focus on the more outstanding elements of a group. If we are pro-something, we elevate our paragons and ignore the nutters. If we are anti-something, we shine a light on the nutters and ignore those who are making the world better. The Internet has given the "nutters" a very nice podium to speak from, making them much more easy to find.

Which is why I tend to dissociate from "movements". People get way too emotionally involved and lose perspective, too eager to preserve those movements that they associate with their identity, and too readily ignore the bad. If somebody is awful, I focus on the individual being awful, and not the movement.

As many in this thread have said "Feminists should control their nutters", the same SHOULD be said of gamers. There is a HELL of a lot of all-around assholishness (which the community has become innured to) in the gaming community, and while it is unfair to judge a community on the action of individuals, it nonetheless reflects on ALL gamers negatively. We got our own act to clean up! Shut up an asshole today, and tommorow may be a better day.

Note: SHutting up assholes should not, I REPEAT SHOULD NOT be dealt with on the interwebs. It's simply too easy to ignore. This is something you must do with people you know, in RL.
I once had a player who, in a D&D game I ran, made a bunch of sexual jokes (he was playing an S&M mistres... very bad idea of mine to allow that) which was making a female player very uncomfortable. He was being a jerk, I asked him to stop, and we were able to deal with it. The guy still has some negative view about women in gaming, but I hope can change those a little. I know better than to think I can change his whole worldview, but by targeting his behaviors, and exposing him to more female gamers, it might.

 

[Verlander]

It surprises me when people wonder why there's such a divide between opinions online. Look at the community - often comprised of insecure men and women, yearning for identity.

Online forums are like jail, people sign up to their gang based on an arbitrary shared connection, even if they would naturally despise the people they're rubbing up against. Feminists attack men because they think it secures them, men attack women because they feel emasculated, but if you got any one of these people in a conversation in real life, you're more likely than not to find them an amiable and reasonable person. Of course you get the few diehard, the actual nazis, the actual manhaters, the actual bigots, but for the most part people are joining gangs because they're on the defensive (and morons like Stefan Molyneux or Anita Sarkeesian become the figureheads for these angsty movements).

 

[william12123]

It surprises me when people wonder why there's such a divide between opinions online. Look at the community - often comprised of insecure men and women, yearning for identity.

Online forums are like jail, people sign up to their gang based on an arbitrary shared connection, even if they would naturally despise the people they're rubbing up against. Feminists attack men because they think it secures them, men attack women because they feel emasculated, but if you got any one of these people in a conversation in real life, you're more likely than not to find them an amiable and reasonable person. Of course you get the few diehard, the actual nazis, the actual manhaters, the actual bigots, but for the most part people are joining gangs because they're on the defensive (and morons like Stefan Molyneux or Anita Sarkeesian become the figureheads for these angsty movements).

+1 to this as well. The internet often brings out the worst in us. Combine that with the sheer difficulty of clear communication through text (IE, without tone, context & body language) it becomes a nasty place.

Makes me think... what effect would losing the internet have on us now? How would the world evolve without it...