I don't know about other places, but in Serbia court can refuse to do anything and to ban any evidence of fatherhood if they think it's against the well being of child. That crawled out some times ago when person who was wrongfully perusaded that he was a father wanted to cut ties with 15 years old child that was not his so that he could support 15 years old child that actually was his that found him (money simply didn't make it both ways) but the court said no. Even issued statement that he is forbidden to do DNA test on his own.
Forgot to mention. Child that wasn't his actually had a mother with which child lived, while his real child lived in various government institutions all it's life.
Your point would be more valid, or perhaps actually valid, if you (as a group) weren't allowing extremely political and activist organizations to represent you. As long as NOW exists, as long as Feminist Frequency is defended as a defender of the cause, as long as every "feminist" who actually speaks up on public media is not any kind of genuine feminist but could genuinely be described by the term "feminazi" and (in office) legislates as such, your voice cannot matter. For that matter, why do we insist on feminism when equalism is the stated goal? Aren't we trying to make a world where race, sex, orientation, and creed don't enforce your place in it, where no one wants to harm you for it, where you can easily have as much opportunity as those other people? I could go on to debate that which "feminism" has latched onto that advances neither women nor society, but that's another thread.
There is one massive problem with all of what you just said; no one is 'allowing' feminism/extremely political and activist organizations to lead the way in feminism. You say that as if feminism is some sort of hive mind or as if it doesn't make different waves, beliefs and movements. All the feminists in the world didn't come together and have a vote over who could lead us.
"as long as every "feminist" who actually speaks up on public media is not any kind of genuine feminist but could genuinely be described by the term "feminazi" and (in office) legislates as such, your voice cannot matter."
No one gives a shit about a person who is rational minded, honest, decent and upstanding. That doesn't get your average 'big' news media channel views and it doesn't get you an applause from the crowd, (See: The Tumblr Effect. Everyone's looking at the 'extremist SJWs' and no ones paying a bit of mind to the fangirls of celebrities like Cumberbatch and Hiddleston who donate thousands of dollars in their support.)
And I brought this into the conversation at the very first part of my post.
When school shootings were still the media's favorite crime to pin on gamers no one (outside of the 'gaming' community) was applauding the decent, upstanding teenagers who weren't bringing guns to school, no one was applauding the non-violent video games or the massive donations to charity made by and for gamers.
You, just as news and media were frequently, optionally turn a blind eye to the non-oppressive feminists because it currently fits you.
And, although to some, having everyone immediately jump into being an advocate for egalitarianism SOUNDS good that's because your over-simplifying it: just like feminism there more then one type of egalitarianism. And I don't want to be an advocate for it since hilariously, one of the main reasons I don't, is because it enforces the very same 'enforced equality' principle that people on this very site claim SJW's/Feminists want for video games.
You see, the problem here is because people think 'OH YEAH EQUALITY for everyone! Feminists and MRAs be damned!' but don't see the other side of it, the 'Everyone gets a trophy' side of it.
Now, you may say 'but Angelblaze! That's not what I believe with egalitarianism!'
In which case...
Your point would be more valid, or perhaps actually valid, if you (as a group) weren't allowing extremely political and activist organizations to represent you. As long as Communism exists, as long as Everyone gets a trophy culture is defended as a defender of the cause, as long as every "wonder child" who actually speaks up on public media is not any kind of genuine successful person but could genuinely be described by the term "spoiled brat" and (in office) legislates as such, your voice cannot matter.
There's equality of chance, economic equality (not what you think at first glance), equality of income and so on that is wrapped up inside egalitarianism, but is never talked about for some reason - mainly because once you get into economic sections of egalitarianist belief it wanders a bit too far into communism and 'loss shaming'. I don't believe in certain parts of it; although I 'get' the overall tenets: people should be fair and equal. Yes. I agree.
But people should have to work; the janitor deserves the same equal treatment as the CEO but if the CEO earned his way there and got multiple degrees and the janitor dropped out of school and ruined his own chances, there should be a pay discrepancy (perhaps not a crazy as the average pay discrepancy though...)...or everyone would drop out of school and no one would try to be better. After all, why try if you can make just as much money not trying at all? (Which links and ties into 'Survival of the fittest', but another thread, right?)
So no, I'm not an egalitarianist. Because damn it, man or woman, I want my first place trophy to be because I got first place. Everyone should have an equal chance to be in the competition though.
I'm neither feminist nor masculist, I'm an equalist. Of course women should be paid equally for equal work, and of course they should be allowed to do everything a man can. That's just common sense. The main issue I take with modern feminism is that a lot of it seems to be wanting to just flip the problem on its head and reverse the roles. That's not equality, that's indulgent revenge fantasy. Likewise for MRAs. You don't actually want Men's Rights you just don't want change.
Since you're wondering "why" people hate Feminism and/or the talking heads [professional victims] like Anita Sarkeesian. It's because of censorship and what it means to fight against "political correctness".
IE: "Real" Feminists lie and aren't afraid to blame other people or manufacture "outrage" to push their agenda. **They've been doing it since the very beginning (1848) at Seneca Falls, when their "Declaration of sentiments" blamed men exclusively.
~ He has never permitted her to exercise her inalienable right to the elective franchise.
~ He has compelled her to submit to laws, in the formation of which she had no voice.
~ He has withheld from her rights which are given to the most ignorant and degraded men--both natives and foreigners.
~ He has made her, if married, in the eye of the law, civilly dead.
~ He has taken from her all right in property, even to the wages she earns.
Starting to see a trend?
**They didn't say "the system" or "the law".. they said "HE" again and again. (Is it any wonder that each wave of feminism has gotten more and more toxic towards men and the enjoyment of our hobbies? ~ Videogames, Comic Books, ect.)
For the supporters of Anita, I also like to point out that her videos fall into this same mindset and "boil down to" nothing more than: http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/233/a/3/jack_anita_by_requiemsvoid-d7w2xz9.jpg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Anywho..
Here's a response I wrote to MundainMatt when he said to:
"stop attacking Anita, because it'll only make her stronger":
My response:
""If people just stop trolling her, she wont have any ammo to cherry pick from!"" ~ Mundane Matt.
Honestly Matt,
I would agree with you but based on what you're saying.. I'd wager you've either never heard of or are simply not considering "manufactured outraged"? **Isn't that how this whole mess started anyways? (Anita trolled 4Chan by creating puppet accounts and even instigated a flame war against her own channel).
Anywho..
From my experience:
I think the real problem with fighting people like Anita and why it's taking so long to make headway, is that she's shielded by "Political Correctness". **No matter what you say, no matter how much evidence you have to disprove what she's saying. You get ostracized and treated like a criminal for speaking up.
IE: Google "Lewis Law" if you get a chance and you'll see what I mean.
Now consider all the Devs that gave Anita a standing ovation at the GDC:
~ Do you REALLY think they all bought into her bs?
~ Do you REALLY think they wanted her there, spreading propaganda/lies about them?
No, but they knew that if they stood up to her.. then they'd be called out for being close minded sexists and their employees (studios) would also suffer.
In truth, the only way to fight her is to saturate society with counters to her lies. (IE: we talk about it and point to trends/flaws in anything they do or say)
Think about her entire argument vs. video games:
All she's basically saying that Video games cause violence, sexism, ect.
Case and point:
http://honeybadgerradio.deviantart.com/art/Video-Game-Violence-and-Misogyny-A-Brief-History-474822724
IE: Why is Mario always saving peach?
~ Real answer = Lazy story telling.
~ Anita/Feminist answer = Sexism!?!!!1!.
Since we all see that Peach is constantly being rescued.. we acknowledge that there is trend going on, but since Anita's conclusion revolves around being "politically correct".. we don't critically analyze her conclusions and pretend she's right.
In other words, we've not been fighting Anita... we've been fighting feminism and political correctness. This in and of itself is VERY difficult and takes time (2 years is nothing in the grand scheme of things) due to how feminists exploit "half truths".
Case and point:
http://honeybadgerradio.deviantart.com/art/Obama-and-Feminists-Lying-The-Wage-Gap-Myth-475720006
**30 Years and counting.
In conclusion:
Just because it's hard to fight bs, doesn't mean we should stop... just because people stop trolling Anita, doesn't mean she wont manufacture her own negative comments for "outrage" either. (think of all the other "professional victims" like Rebecca Watson, ect that do the same damn thing all the time to get attention/support).
Know yourself, know your enemy and you hold the key to victory. :3
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As for the Zoe drama here's a useful breakdown of the entire situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5-51PfwI3M
or
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/quinnspiracy
Just like Anita, she's a liar/scam artist/professional victim looking to exploit "political correctness" and our fear of it. (this also highlights why news sources like the escapist's editor and chief do NOT seem to like "facts" and avoid apologizing for initially falling for Zoe's lies by persecuting the "suicidal virgins" on WizardCHAN.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'd also recommend checking out "Karen Straughan" on youtube and watching her "Disposable Male" video.
The problem with feminism is that there are very few "dictionary definition" feminists who are for equality.
and in much the same way as those that are the most vocal Christian Conservatives in power seem to be the least Christian people you can imagine (none of that whole camel through of the eye of a needle, turning the other cheek or avoiding eating shellfish for them) the self proclaimed feminists with the most influence are the least "feminist" out there.
It has instead all become about the victim narrative. Women are victims! You have to give them attention/sympathy/stuff. Look how oppressed they are. If you question that, you are part of the problem.
Then a whole host of misleading or fake statistics to back it up. Refusing to back down when such claims are debunked.
Christina Hoff Somers, a woman that calls herself the Factual Feminist is probably the best fit for a dictionary definition feminist I know of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tva6ZsQv7_M
For the ones that we've had the most discussion about recently? A better description would be women's rights activists, as they concentrate soley on the female perspective.
Or... not even that. Professional victims self promoting, claiming they're being attacked for promoting "equality".
And that's why you are baffled. You missed like 2/3 of the issue. What people find most disturbing is how this case yet again showed the obvious agenda of many people in gaming "journalism". It's their reaction (or lack thereof) which pissed people off.
How are you coming to this conclusion? If this is research done on Tumblr or internet forums, then we can safely discard it.
EDIT: I should clarify, I'm not assuming that's the source of your conclusion. I've just seen people use Tumblr blogs to draw negative conclusions about the entire millions-upon-millions strong movement numerous times.
How are you coming to this conclusion? If this is research done on Tumblr or internet forums, then we can safely discard it.
EDIT: I should clarify, I'm not assuming that's the source of your conclusion. I've just seen people use Tumblr blogs to draw negative conclusions about the entire millions-upon-millions strong movement numerous times.
Nah mate, this can be seen everywhere. And i just wish they'd be more honest about it. You know just like our beloved VB uses the motto "Own People First" (pretty clear about their agenda, no hidden PC bull) feminists should stop beating around the bush and lying about the whole equality stuff and just say "Women First". Because the pro women double standard that is to be found among most feminists (even those who are self-proclaimed "moderates") is just so oblivious trying to pretend it's not there is like claiming there is no star in our solar system.
Simple. There's a test you can apply.
Women have overtaken men in higher education.
Find the feminist that thinks that more women getting degrees than men is bad because it's inequality. They are dictionary definition feminists. I think there's one, maybe two.
Compare it to the ones that think it's great that women are in front or change the subject to instead "women are better educated but look at the paygap!" which another one of those dubunked things that relies on false representation of statistics.
You're looking at about a 50-1 Womens right activists to dictionary definition feminists here I figure.
So I do agree that feminism gets a somewhat bad rep from a lot of their vocal extremists. Which may not define the whole group, but they are who get mentioned in main stream media because, adclicks.
With that said, I would also say that I am not a feminist. Because there are a lot of their goals that I don't agree with. As a couple people mentioned, it is a movement that started off as a "Equality for ALL" thing, and has shifted away from that into an "Equality for Women" thing. Now some may say this is the same thing, but it really isn't. Equality for women, comes at the expense of men. Equality for all, means just that equality for everyone, men/women/transgender/etc.
I have a friend that identifies as a feminist and she and I very often will discuss various articles and videos, everything from Anita's Tropes vs Women, to XOJane articles, to specific papers she finds, etc. I think the best way I have explained what feminism looks like to me is as this:
If we put Social Representation / Freedoms on a scale of 1 to 10. Currently women would be around a 3 or 4. Men would be around 8 or 9 (obviously something that needs fixed). Feminists (or at least segments of that group (2nd wavers I believe based off the definition someone in this thread gave) want to make everyone 6's, empowering women, while limiting men (or worst make men 4's and women 6's). How (I believe) things should be, is raising women to the level of 8 or 9, the same as men.
So while feminists do definitely have some good ideas, and I agree that women are getting the shitty end of the stick in modern culture still. There are simply too many overreaches in their common frame of mine to side with them (not that I side with keeping them down either) Maybe I just find too much 2nd waver stuff... Now I have to have another talk with her about these 3rd waver feminists. THANKS INTERNET!!
It should, but in practice, it doesn't tend to mean that at all.
"Equality for all" is a very vague term, which can include or exclude whoever you want it to. Claiming not to support equality for any one particular group, but for a nebulous and faceless "everyone", is a good way of dismissing that group's individual issues. It's a common problem, one that you see amongst various activists as well...feminism supports the rights of women, but very often omitting any that aren't white and middle class.
Nah mate, this can be seen everywhere. And i just wish they'd be more honest about it. You know just like our beloved VB uses the motto "Own People First" (pretty clear about their agenda, no hidden PC bull) feminists should stop beating around the bush and lying about the whole equality stuff and just say "Women First". Because the pro women double standard that is to be found among most feminists (even those who are self-proclaimed "moderates") is just so oblivious trying to pretend it's not there is like claiming there is no star in our solar system.
I'm going to need some solid evidence; right now, I'm just seeing generalisations about an extremely broad movement. I have not seen or heard the absurd positions you're describing outside of the internet.
F4TK said:
Simple. There's a test you can apply.
Women have overtaken men in higher education.
Find the feminist that thinks that more women getting degrees than men is bad because it's inequality. They are dictionary definition feminists. I think there's one, maybe two.
Compare it to the ones that think it's great that women are in front or change the subject to instead "women are better educated but look at the paygap!" which another one of those dubunked things that relies on false representation of statistics.
You're looking at about a 50-1 Womens right activists to dictionary definition feminists here I figure.
Firstly, it has not been "debunked". There are circumstances that partway explain it, but we would be making pretty colossal assumptions (or being dishonest) to conclude from them that it simply doesn't exist.
Do you have evidence that the university admissions process is discriminating?
Firstly, it has not been "debunked". There are circumstances that partway explain it, but we would be making pretty colossal assumptions (or being dishonest) to conclude from them that it simply doesn't exist.
The 77 cent per dollar argument is easy to debunk with basic common sense.
They've taken the sum total of money earned by men, compared it to the sum total of money earned by women and then said "women must be paid less than men for working the exact same jobs!"
The truth is that women tend to work less hours, raise children or choose to work in fields pay isn't as high.
Did a quick search, again Factual Feminist Christina Hoff Somers debunks.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyFjPHwF6To
Silvanus said:
Do you have evidence that the university admissions process is discriminating?
I'm going to need some solid evidence; right now, I'm just seeing generalisations about an extremely broad movement. I have not seen or heard the absurd positions you're describing outside of the internet.
What? the pro women bias of feminists? Well firstly there is how they almost solely talk about women's issue. Which makes sense for a "Women First" movement but for one which claims to care about all and be about equality? Not so much. Than there is the occasional BS they spout. Like how before our elections almost all leaders of major feminist organizations asked us to cast sexist votes. (And i who thought sexism was bad...) Because indeed, gender is irrelevant for the position of politician yet they asked us to specifically vote for women. Worst part? Many politicians joined the sexist bandwagon and applauded that call. Apparently pro women sexism is the norm nowadays. And I could bring up a buttload of random examples but i think that one involving the leadership of multiple major feminist organizations says about enough. (And let's not forget i saw 0 feminists call them out on their sexism, which i'm pretty certain they'd do if anyone was asking people to specifically vote for men)
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