would you have been worried anyway if the dates were different? not to be facetious, but is the only thing making you not worry about liquid terminators is that we've missed judgement day?Silentpony said:
I am watching the first 2 Terminator movies in their entirety for the first time.
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We've already had a "men suck" moment in T2 when Sarah lectures Dyson.Gorfias said:
Also, Arnie's back as the T-800 (as stupid as that is), and we know John's in the film in some form, so, probably not. And it's an absolutely asinine fear to have.
I mean, the film's probably going to suck regardless though.
writing a movie off as some feminist sjw conspiracy before it's even released (off of a single promo shot even), is the reason people have to tip toe around and use disclaimers to say Ghostbusters 3 was awful.Gorfias said:
Hold your horses. it has Gabriel Luna who played a great Ghost Rider and it has Arnold, men still exist. see what happens
well those people are arseholes, but literally nothing to do with female leads.
True but young J.C. pulls her back. He's a living embodiment that her statements are not true and she knows it.Hawki said:
Hawki said:
JC is dead in the future, killed by the robot he adored. There is no hope of avoiding Judgement Day.
The whole time travel paradox thing doens't really work but I go with it. As it is, that Universe could use a Jean-Claude Van Damme Time Cop as Skynet would be sending killers back every Tuesday.
Loved Alita. So, how is that different than Star Wars?trunkage said:
Unlike Star Wars the Last Jedi, Alita is not an open hate letter to men. Alita is feminine without being hateful, chauvinistic and a sexual supremacist. Again, you can have strong, female leads, like Ridley in Aliens and it be terrific. And I hope T6 doesn't descend into that kind of seething raging evil. Just worried in the current environment that a poster like this comes out.
I see you've been watching the anti-SJW videos again.Gorfias said:
The love interest in Alita was a plot device. In other words, he only existed to get Alita to do something. And then she pissed all over his 'sacrifice' by not following through. I can't imagine a worse way for Alita to end
Guys, this is like the first thread in a LOOOOOOOOONG time that had very in depth discussion about something without it having everyone get angry and political. Can we please lay off the gender politics? Gofias, I know you're just voicing your concerns but I don't think this is the time to talk about it, especially since the movie isn't out yet.
Is that insulting to you?Gorfias said:
Plus there was Fury. I'm grateful that many MCU movies are heading away from love interests. I didn't like Jane, I don't like the Strange's doc gf, couldn't care less about Scarlet Witch and Vision or Carter/Rogers. Old Carter was way better in her own show. Potts has been somewhat okay because she had something to do like be CEO and Extremis. But that gone now, so...
Anyway, my other problem with Alita is that she's a Mary Sue. Her faults are Amnesia and poorly made battle suits. She's super OP. She has no emotional progression or pay off. She gets better by remembering and upgrading her suit, not by character development.
Captain Marvel had similar issues. The only moment of character growth was when she stopped being so mission orientated and helped Fury. And that's not great. It did lead her to not be so trigger happy with the Skrulls. But most developement happened through remembering. But I did like how her mentor was goading her into a fist fight and she pretty much said nope. Because forcing fist fighting into a movie with superpower/swords/guns is really stupid.
So, alright, if we want to skip politics, then I'll just respond to:
The first thing isn't what I'd call dark. We never see it happen, and the premise is one I find proposterous. The T-850 explains that Skynet knew of John's emotional attachment to the T-800 from T2 (no idea how Skynet knows this), and thus deployed the T-850 to kill him. Apparently John's an idiot in the future, because emotional attachment or not, he should be aware of Terminators by now. He should know that this can't be the same T-800. Even in T3 itself, John's first reaction to seeing Arnie is "are you here to kill me?" He does ask about the possibility of T3 Arnie having the same memories as T2 Arnie, but his first reaction is logical. So, no. The "darkness" of the concept is underscored by how future John requires the idiot ball to make it work.
Second thing, no hope of avoiding Judgement Day. Again, it's a premise that undercuts T2, which not only goes against its themes, but literally makes the movie an entire waste of time. In fact, if we factor in Salvation, delaying JD has arguably made things worse in the long run. But that aside, even if JD is inevitable, T1/T2 actually show us the future war. T3 does, technically, but it lacks any of the punch the first two films had.
Also, I feel like touching on this - down to the lighting and cinematography, T1/T2 are much darker films than T3. T1 is brutal when it comes to innocents being killed by the T-800 - the police station sequence might have guns and all that, but it's arguably a moment of horror. T2 doesn't quite have the same level, but what it does have is excellent cinematography and use of lighting, with its use of blues and oranges to add to the atmosphere. By way of comparison, compare the two minigun sequences in the films. The T2 minigun sequence is excellently shot, has excellent atmosphere, and serves as a point of character development for Arnie, in that he could easily kill all the cops there, but doesn't, despite having no qualms about killing earlier on. In contrast, the T3 sequence takes place in daylight, lacks any atmosphere, and lacks any character development. That the T-850 doesn't kill anyone has no deeper meaning because it's not tied to any character development. It's one of the cases where T3 apes a scene from T2, but doesn't take the thematic and character impacts with it.
In short, T1/T2 are dark because the darkness is up there front and centre. Any darkness in T3 is, at best, alluded to.
Alright, let's look at these things.
The first thing isn't what I'd call dark. We never see it happen, and the premise is one I find proposterous. The T-850 explains that Skynet knew of John's emotional attachment to the T-800 from T2 (no idea how Skynet knows this), and thus deployed the T-850 to kill him. Apparently John's an idiot in the future, because emotional attachment or not, he should be aware of Terminators by now. He should know that this can't be the same T-800. Even in T3 itself, John's first reaction to seeing Arnie is "are you here to kill me?" He does ask about the possibility of T3 Arnie having the same memories as T2 Arnie, but his first reaction is logical. So, no. The "darkness" of the concept is underscored by how future John requires the idiot ball to make it work.
Second thing, no hope of avoiding Judgement Day. Again, it's a premise that undercuts T2, which not only goes against its themes, but literally makes the movie an entire waste of time. In fact, if we factor in Salvation, delaying JD has arguably made things worse in the long run. But that aside, even if JD is inevitable, T1/T2 actually show us the future war. T3 does, technically, but it lacks any of the punch the first two films had.
Also, I feel like touching on this - down to the lighting and cinematography, T1/T2 are much darker films than T3. T1 is brutal when it comes to innocents being killed by the T-800 - the police station sequence might have guns and all that, but it's arguably a moment of horror. T2 doesn't quite have the same level, but what it does have is excellent cinematography and use of lighting, with its use of blues and oranges to add to the atmosphere. By way of comparison, compare the two minigun sequences in the films. The T2 minigun sequence is excellently shot, has excellent atmosphere, and serves as a point of character development for Arnie, in that he could easily kill all the cops there, but doesn't, despite having no qualms about killing earlier on. In contrast, the T3 sequence takes place in daylight, lacks any atmosphere, and lacks any character development. That the T-850 doesn't kill anyone has no deeper meaning because it's not tied to any character development. It's one of the cases where T3 apes a scene from T2, but doesn't take the thematic and character impacts with it.
In short, T1/T2 are dark because the darkness is up there front and centre. Any darkness in T3 is, at best, alluded to.
Sometimes, it is what is not shown that is most effective. T2 does at least postpone JD.Hawki said:
T1 is Dark (Darkest of the 3). It is an action movie but it is also a horror movie. T2 is more a straight up action movie (with a fun component, that Linda Hamilton herself becoming a Terminator, going after Dison before he can build Skynet.)
In the Future, they would know about the events of T2 and possibly manipulate John Connor into allowing the T 800 in because JC lived through T2. Yes, in terms of lighting, it is not the darkest. But the sense of foreboding, the body count as the Terminator takes out JC's lieutenants, all add up to a weight I don't think is in T2.
If your sole qualifier for "is it feminist" is "but does it have men in it?" then I'm going to point out that Dark fate has at least three dudes in it just going by the wikipedia page, so...Gorfias said:
John Connor is less "the protagonist" and more "a macguffin". He's a thing that has to happen in T1 and a thing that has to be protected in T2. Its Sarah who actually develops, grows and gets something of an arcHawki said:
It seems to me that when the action lead is a heroine, the supporting men are themselves capable fighters, even if not superpowered. Yet male heroes are still very frequently saving drippy wallflowers (albeit ones who may be permitted to stop screaming and get some spunky, can-do toughness at the very end).Gorfias said:
A bunch of kick arse women is no big deal in a world where the vast majority of arse-kickers are male. A movie where someone rebukes a guy for being an overconfident, macho arsehole is hardly a problem in a world where the other 99% of films embrace the concept of macho, overconfident arseholes and real-life overconfident, macho arseholes ensure real people get needlessly killed.
You certainly don't have to like the fact that one movie in a hundred gives a rather different perspective on the maverick hero cliche you're comfortable with, but it's unreasonable to worry when it's so rare.
And by T3, makes things worse as a result.Gorfias said:
We can assume that more people die this time, because the world population would be bigger in 2003 than 1997. Also, the war against Skynet is still going on by 2032, and it's a timeline where John dies. So, even discounting Salvation, T3 makes it clear (if not explicitly) that postponing Judgement Day is making things worse in the long run.
Disagree - there's far more forboding in T2.
The lieutenants the T-X kills have no weight for me. There's no atmosphere with it, and they're nobodies. Like, I'm not saying that from an in-universe context, killing teenagers isn't horrific, but it's systemic of the shift T3 started in the franchise, with time travel being common enough that Skynet can target John's lieutenants because "hey, why not?" When the T-1000 kills John's foster parents, there's more weight because they're established characters. The lieutenants? Not so much.
I can also attribute this to acting in that the T-1000 carries far more menace to me than the T-X. Think in part it's due to how the T-1000 has a switch from friendly guy to cold killer, while with the T-X, there's absolutely no ambiguity that she's an antagonist, and doesn't even kill her foes in a subtle way.
T1? Sure. T2? No. John's very much his own character in T2, and he has an arc, going from bratty teen to the moral compass of the group. Sarah has an arc in both films as well, but it doesn't invalidate John's.Palindromemordnilap said: