I despise the very concept of superheroes

[Rellik San]

You don't actually read much Superman do you? The whole Superman is an alien thing comes up frequently when it comes to the population of Earth not trusting him. Superman sheparding humanity has been done a lot, usually in regards to how far that should go and how much he should interfere.It's not avoided at all, they're fairly recurring themes in Superman comics.

Sadly as a student i cant afford too many comics so no :/ I've tried to but I've never seen the arcs you mentioned so i sorta lost interest. Do you know them by name so i could perhaps read them?

Also is the obvious paradox of his name ever dealt with?

It's a common occurence A story type that pops up so very often. As for the name. Well He's a MAN in every way that counts he's trying to set himself up as an example even to his own detrement. There are things he wants to do but wont because he knows that his own desires have to take a backseat to what is best for others. New 52 tackles the alienness in the first story arc. And there are many others.

If you want a really good example of that, check out the DC Animated movie Superman vs. The Elite, and if you like that, then check out the comic it's based on; What's so Funny about Truth, Justice and the American Way. The examine Superman's place in a post 9/11 society, whether it's right for him to be directly involved in the hunt for terrorists and if the world even needs a classic superhero anymore.

 

[Queen Michael]

Oh, but you know, I might be wrong, because I'm not even a real superhero comic fan. I just read manga almost exclusively, and I know how much superhero comic fans hate that.

Next is the downright mean-spirited treatment of anyone with unorthodox abilities and the under-utilization of the most popular abilities. Basically, what I got from reading the comics is that anyone with unorthodox powers will most likely be dumber than bricks, and will die very very quickly, or retire early after having realized just how outmatched they are.

Actually, I'm a huge superhero fan, and I also read several manga books every day.

Also, could you give me some concrete example of what you mentioned in the other paragraph I quoted?

I'm honestly curious about this too, I distinctly remember most Shounen manga being harsh on characters with quirky power sets. Even the magical girl and giant robot series tend to give a hard time to characters with unconventional powers/mechs.

Although given his one example is JoJo's Bizarre adventure, I don't know how much faith I have in his interpretation. That series was pretty much centered around bizarre powers being used in fights so its a poor representation of attitudes in manga and anime in general.

And there you have it, the reason why I don't even want to give a concrete answer. It won't convince anyone, ever.

But if you don't give any concrete answers we can't really evaluate whether what you say makes sense or not.

 

[EternallyBored]

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I'm honestly curious about this too, I distinctly remember most Shounen manga being harsh on characters with quirky power sets. Even the magical girl and giant robot series tend to give a hard time to characters with unconventional powers/mechs.

Although given his one example is JoJo's Bizarre adventure, I don't know how much faith I have in his interpretation. That series was pretty much centered around bizarre powers being used in fights so its a poor representation of attitudes in manga and anime in general.

And there you have it, the reason why I don't even want to give a concrete answer. It won't convince anyone, ever.

You know the reason you have troubles may be because you jump immediately into being ultra defensive at the first sign of criticism.

You want an unabashed agreement? Fine, I do agree that characters with weird abilities often take the brunt of negative representations in super hero comics and western comics in general. Where you've lost me is the idea that Eastern manga is any better in its representations. When characters like Boss from Shin Getter Robo, and the cavalcade of joke characters and side characters in series like Bleach and Naruto exist to be the butt of recurring jokes and ultimately get one-shot by the heroes if they are the villain.

Your one example is a series dedicated to showcasing bizarre powers and weird fights. Its like me making the reverse statement about Eastern Series and using the Hitman comics as my one example (i.e. a western series based around a team of heroes with bizarre or no powers at all). It undermines my point more than it helps it.

Also your standoffish nature to western comics fans probably isn't helping either, I have been reading comics for 20 years and I have yet to meet a single western comic fan that actively hates eastern Manga and anime in any serious fashion. I'm sure they exist, but most fans I know are either fans of both East and West, or are just mostly ambivalent to one side or the other, and I am a definite fan of both manga and comics.

 

[shootthebandit]

You don't actually read much Superman do you? The whole Superman is an alien thing comes up frequently when it comes to the population of Earth not trusting him. Superman sheparding humanity has been done a lot, usually in regards to how far that should go and how much he should interfere.It's not avoided at all, they're fairly recurring themes in Superman comics.

Sadly as a student i cant afford too many comics so no :/ I've tried to but I've never seen the arcs you mentioned so i sorta lost interest. Do you know them by name so i could perhaps read them?

Also is the obvious paradox of his name ever dealt with?

It's a common occurence A story type that pops up so very often. As for the name. Well He's a MAN in every way that counts he's trying to set himself up as an example even to his own detrement. There are things he wants to do but wont because he knows that his own desires have to take a backseat to what is best for others. New 52 tackles the alienness in the first story arc. And there are many others.

Superman II covers the issue quite well. Where he actually has a conflict with himself and wants to be human

 

[Froggy Slayer]

So...they're bad because they help people? C'mon, that's the point. It isn't supposed to be furthering some program of eugenics.

 

[Launcelot111]

I feel like the X-Men would in a way be a subversion of the superman trend you don't like, as each character has a very narrow, specialized skill set and has to focus on training and teamwork and having an infrastructure in place to handle these threats rather than merely swooping in and taking them out in one punch.

Are you kidding me? Half the X-Men shoot lasers, the other half has some sort of passive telepathy skill. There're maybe 4 or 5 X-Men with truly specialized skills, and even those get repeated. Nightcrawler=Vanisher, Mystique=Courier, Wolverine=Deathstrike, Colossus=Emma Frost, Xavier=Jean Grey, etc. I get the whole teamwork thing but isn't that the same as Avengers and Justice League? Everybody's super awesome, but they share their screen time anyway?

The X-men definitely went through a bit of an arms race over time over who could be the new OP, but in the beginning, Jean Grey could only pick up a chair with her mind, Beast was essentially just a stocky kid, and Angel couldn't turn into some metal killing machine yet. They all sorta sucked except at the one way in which they didn't suck. This spirit is a stronger today in the smaller teams where people have weirder powers and super strength/invulnerability isn't handed out left and right, but they still have X-men stories where Wolverine and Storm and all the big guns have to go recruiting because no one on the team is fast enough to catch some asshole on a Vespa.

 

[Genericjim101]

Screw Superman.

What i find a little sad is that superMAN, the pinnacle of all that is humanity and the idol we strive to be, isnt even human. He isnt even a man. He isnt a super MAN hes a super "Something BETTER than a man". Is our race so terrible that we feel the need to take something different, pretend its human because of superficial similarities and then hero worship it? (Im talking about the actions of the humans in super man cannon). I dunno the fact superman isnt human is glossed over when people want to idolise him as a paragon of humanity but then suddenly it matters when he is lonely. Is the fact he is called superMAN ever talked about when he isnt even human?

Lemme just quote homestuck:

Spoiler

CG: YOU ALL TRACE THE MYTHOLOGICAL FOOTSTEPS OF YOUR BELOVED HUMAN SUPERMAN WHO'S REALLY JUST A MUSCULAR CAUCASIAN ALIEN.
CG: IT'S HILARIOUS HOW HUMANS WORSHIP HIM AS A PINNACLE OF HUMAN HEROISM AND VIRTUE BUT HE ISN'T EVEN HUMAN.
CG: ACTUALLY IT'S INCREDIBLY PATHETIC.
CG: BUT ALSO IN A WAY KIND OF ADMIRABLE.
CG: BECAUSE IT MEANS DEEP DOWN YOU ALL MUST REALIZE WHO YOUR DADDY IS.
CG: WE ARE, BITCHES

I'm going to try and defeat your facetiousness in one swoop. The point of looking up to Superman is not his power it's what he stands for. There are many other powered beings whom have done nothing but inspire fear and without the very human and humbling raising of John and Martha Kent he may not have grown to be the benevolent force for good.

 

[Starik20X6]

You will give the people an ideal to strive towards. They will race behind you, they will stumble, they will fall. But in time, they will join you in the sun. In time, you will help them accomplish wonders.

Superman not actually being superMan is an important point, because he's not supposed to be a man. He's supposed to be an ideal. A symbol of virtue, an icon of benevolent power. He could rule the world or kill us all within minutes if he wished, but he doesn't. Superman shows us that even with literally godlike power, one need not be a dictator. To borrow from another hero:

With great power comes great responsibility.

Our superheroes aren't written to make us feel worse for not being them. We should strive to be like them. They teach us to stand up for ourselves, to fight for what's right, to use whatever 'power' we have for the benefit of us all. To use our skills to make this world a better place.

Also, the assertion that all heroes are part of some 'elite upper class' is pretty much horseshit, save for the X-Men and a handful of others. In most other superhero stories, the characters are regular humans who undergo rigorous training, earn their powers via trials of worthiness or are gifted them completely at random. And even then, just about the only characters to refer to the X-Men as superior to the rest of humanity are Magneto and other villains. And even X-men still has the underlying theme of "using your gifts for the betterment of everyone, even if they hate you for it".

At the very core, the idea of the superhero is to inspire us to strive for greatness, and to do what we can to make our world a better place. It isn't to make you feel bad about yourself because you can't bench-press a freight train.

 

[randomrob1968]

How can works of fiction that exist primarily to celebrate the innate superiority of one group of persons over the rest of humanity be so popular? What does this say about us?

Superheroes are metaphors to examine humanity, just like Greek and Roman gods were. They are not things to aspire to in themselves, but can have qualities to aspire to. For example, before the post modern everyman reboots of his character, Peter Parker was a singular icon of geek culture. He was isolated and teased mercilessly for being smart and different and not like everyone else. And his power fantasy was no fantasy. Spiderman often found that by involving himself as a hero, he did so at great personal cost to himself and others. He was in fact, a tragic figure.

All qualities that teenagers relate to. To have your body change on you, to know when and when not to use strength, to feel something greater inside... they're metaphorical things that relate to the everyday, and also to the need to daydream.

 

[Genericjim101]

For ultimate smugness I post this while, yes, recognising it's a little flawed in the context of the OP's point of superpowers.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Since when did wish fulfilment fantasies become nazi propaganda for subjugating the common man?

Superman is cool, cuz he can fly and lift cars. We can't.
Spider-Man is cool, cuz he can swing around the city and climb any surface. We can't.
Batman is cool, cuz he's got a shitload of awesome crime fighting gadgets and a badass car. We don't.
Wolverine is cool, cuz he's got metal claws and is practically indestructable. We're not.
Cyclops is cool, cuz... Uhm... We'll skip that one.

That's as far as superhero worship goes, my friend.

Pretty much the same thing I thought. Apparently people feel the need to read far too much into everything, like a GCSE English teacher.

Really, it's fine to celebrate a superior group of people because they're not real- if there was a comic book about how much better blond-haired, blue eyed people were, then yes, I'd see your point. No writers are writing comic books to say how shit we all are and how we should aspire to be invincible, flying, laser firing badasses.

Besides, how can you say that superheroes like Batman or Iron Man are better? By your logic, it's not really much different, just replacing a genetics for money. In fact I'd almost say it's worse (but probably not considering how impossible they really are)- It would be much more harmful to be idolizing the very real group of rich people than idolizing the utterly fictional group of superheroes.

 

[Arqus_Zed]

Man, you would love the shit out of Garth Ennis's "The Boys."

It pretty much raises all of these questions and concerns that you brought up, and responds with a group of smart, well-informed, and most importantly MOTIVATED group of mercenaries to take them out. All the while being cheeky and lampooning current superhero mythos and pop culture.

Also, the protagonist/audience surrogate is Simon Pegg. So, I mean, you can't go wrong there. Check it out. Seriously.

And what's more, human attempts to level the playing field with technology are generally rendered ineffective because most superheroes and supervillains are conveniently immune to human weapons.

You should read "The Boys". Seriously.

I will join in with these two gentlemen and say that based on your standpoint, you might enjoy Garth Ennis' "The Boys".

However, I will also add that I do not share their enthusiasm for the series. (Mind you, I still found it an interesting concept and it did have a few genuinely good parts.)

First of all, it's Garth Ennis, so expect pointless graphic violence and nudity that serves no real purpose. The equivalent of a movie that shoves a rape scene in your face instead of using subtlety and letting the mind do the work - except that in some cases there was no need for a rape-scene to begin with. On one hand, it's clever to have a series wherein all superheros are jerks and then have a fake "cross-over" event where they don't fight some great evil, but just go on a shared holiday! But when said holiday is just a huge orgy that is spread over six issues, you kind of start to wonder: "Why? Is it so you could draw some boobs? Is it so you could make more jokes over which super heroine is the biggest slut?"

Speaking of jokes, another Garth Ennis trademark is the low brow humor. In rare occasions, he will actually use it for the sake of satire, but most of the time it's just stuff like: "This superhero can't stop fucking things!" "That superhero puts gerbils up his ass!" "This superhero likes to get fucked by transsexuals!" "This dude has a fetish for disabled women and has been fucked buy a dog in his ass and by monkeys in his ears!" It gets really tiresome after a while.

Writer trademarks aside, the stories themselves tend to be rather hit & miss. The protagonists themselves are also an odd bunch - while Mother's Milk, the Female and Frenchie are enjoyable enough, I found myself getting irritated by Butcher and Hughie as the series went on.

That said, like I mentioned at the start, there are still good parts. I really liked the beginning, that showed a man losing his girlfriend because of the carelessness of a superhero (insert Man of Steel joke here). I also liked the WW II flashback and the jabs at mainstream comics (cross-over events, how comic books would work if superheroes really existed, the fact that there are too many X-Men subdivisions, etc.)

 

[Macgyvercas]

You are right about harry potter though. Muggles are given absolutely no credit in the films surely at least one human wouldve discovered them and the scene with the flying car. The airforce would be on that shit in seconds. Im pretty sure a supersonic jet with bombs and missiles could easily take a guy on a broom and im also pretty sure even if you are a wizard a bullet to the head would still fuck you up

If I recall correctly, that flying car incident had the Ministry scrambling to modify the memories of the witnesses. As for the bullets, I've always been saying that a sniper could take out a Death Eater a mile away, but at close range...well, let's just hope Protego works on bullets.

 

[deadish]

It's just vicarious entertainment.

Ah yes, Iron Man and Batman. Proof that being rich is the greatest super power of them all...

The reason that super heroes are so popular is that they are a fantasy-fulfillment. No one ever watches Superman and dreams about being the poor bastard that just had their car flipped; THEY'RE Superman, the man who flies in and saves the poor bastard because he needs someone as awesome as me to do it.

See Zombie Apocalypse for another example

No, being rich isn't their superpower, being crazy smart is - in Batman's case also being almost never wrong; if someone in real life did what he did, heaven knows the number of innocent people who will have their lives ruined.

 

[Oly J]

ok this is a circle-jerk conversation depending on who you're talking to, the whole appeal of superheroes I think is partly rooted in the fact that we know they don't exist and never will, the ones with innate superpowers anyway (why does no one ever mention Green Arrow? I find him much more badass than Batman) and in the case of your Superman or Green Lantern or any such hero, there's just more of a "wow" factor with those, personally I love the superhero thing, we're never going to get showdowns like that in real life, why begrudge people putting them in comics or movies? I think it's also a projection thing, the writers obviously want the audience to project themselves on to the hero more often than not (or in some cases the villain) and everyone loves to feel superior to everyone else (don't lie, you do) and superheroes allow some people to vicariously experience what that would be like, it's wish-fulfilment. Also on top of that some superhuman characters are surprisingly well-written with interesting developments, or if they're not, someone around them will be.

well that's what I think anyway

 

[shootthebandit]

You are right about harry potter though. Muggles are given absolutely no credit in the films surely at least one human wouldve discovered them and the scene with the flying car. The airforce would be on that shit in seconds. Im pretty sure a supersonic jet with bombs and missiles could easily take a guy on a broom and im also pretty sure even if you are a wizard a bullet to the head would still fuck you up

If I recall correctly, that flying car incident had the Ministry scrambling to modify the memories of the witnesses. As for the bullets, I've always been saying that a sniper could take out a Death Eater a mile away, but at close range...well, let's just hope Protego works on bullets.

Im somehow forgetting that this is a childrens story and having a military jet shoot down a car with 2 young boys wouldnt be suitable. Also a fictional fantasy war isnt as hard hitting as a full blown war with real military involved although it wouldve made sense for the muggle military to get involved in the last 2 movies. They tackled the issue of the genocide of muggles so why not tackle the reverse issue at the same time or would that just be a rip off of the xmen movies

 

[Preacher zer0]

Hercules... Samson... Prometheus... King Arthur... Gilgamesh...

Superheroes have always existed.
They always will.

In 1000 years, Batman and Superman will be looked upon as our Hercules and Gilgamesh.
No doubt that far future society will have it's own mythical champions and heroes.

That is all.

No need to overthink it and taint simple mythology with nonsense like eugenics .
Yes, the guy is called "Superman" but honestly, that's as far as it goes... he's not even human ffs.

 

[drummond13]

This seriously bothers you? You can't just sit back and enjoy the movie/comic/game?