I don't understand tipping culture...

[Strazdas]

And americans drive many times the amount the average european does, therefore rendering the idea that the gas is cheaper pointless when they still have to pay a few times the amount total over an equal period of time simply because the lack of alternatives in order to commute the longer distances to work.

$4.50 an hour amounts to about $750 a month, if they can even gain 40 hours a week(something that is rare in the service industry since without that timetable, it allows companies some loopholes to pay them less in the first place). So yeah, care to show me how someone can survive with, oh, lets be generous here, $500 dollars a month based on a single service industry job making about 30 hours or so. Also, where were you taking into account rent and food, as they are regionally priced many times, even among the states themselves. But please, go on and lecture the poor about how they don't know how to be poor, I am sure that wont come off as horribly patronizing or anything.
I do not doubt that people can survive off of that, but that is frequently terrible existence, often far worse when you take into account that if you are working a service job as an only source of income and have to commute any distance, as the money you make goes into the tank more often then not. Oh, and lets not forget the pattern of single parents having to take lower income jobs, such as service industry, due to lack of schooling or simply no other options and the added financial burdens that brings with it.

Just becasue you like to drive longer distances does not mean you are entitled to cheaper gas. i sued gas as an example that many things are indeed cheaper in US and yet we live off 500 a month. The biggest problem with 500 a month for you is rent, which is, to use meme, "too damn high". I dont know how good the public trnasport system is where you live, here i use public transport instead of my own car to get to work because it is simpler. even ignoring the fact that its cheaper, it would be better to use public transport. Car is a luxury item. It should not be a must-have for poor.
Lets not bring children into this. if you cant live off your wage, and them make children, which makes you even more bellow powerty line, you are simply stupid and bring misery unto your children. i have no pity for people who use their sexual organs before using their brains.

You blame the system but accuse the people with no other option of not doing something? Bet you were all confused about why the slaves didn't just revolt too, weren't you? I mean, they outnumber the owners, right? Or why the demand for equal rights wasn't enough for the minorities. Changes can happen, but there is often a requirement for some larger pressure to force the change in the first place. As with many, this would have to be a government pressure, as few businesses will do it to themselves when it cuts into profits.
People need money to survive, to raise their kids and to simply exist in any form. There is a lot more people looking for jobs then there are jobs available. SOMEONE will take your job if you try to protest your working conditions, and even if you could get all the working poor Americans to do so, I recall the States having issues of immigration and illegals being hired because they work for even less. Your method does not work when there is competition for your job as it is. And unlike the auto industry, most service jobs can not even form unions because there is no skill set required to work there in the first place that would slow replacement, no stability in the job to maintain connections and grow a union framework from, and too many people with no other option who will therefore compromise for the sake of survival.
The system now practically requires a fix from government enforcement. What you are proposing is that the market will fix itself if people just all worked towards it, yet you ignore the fundamentals of supply and demand that help cause this problem in the first place. There are more supply for jobs, then demand, thus price (wages) go down because they can get away with it. People will compromise their dignity to survive or to help their families survive and will accept lower wages and bad conditions, as they always have when the businesses offer them because there is no other way for those people to get by on average. And much like how it took government action to enforce things like basic safety and working conditions in the first place, so too would it be required to change a greedy business. Ground up does not work with the working poor because they have to worry about survival first, and it is better to scrape an existence and get by then starve based on your ideals, all the more true with it is your family starving because of them.
You are naive and now come off as condescending too.

they have an option. multiple actually. but us, custumers, with our tips, are feeding the broken system. we are at fault for supporting system we know is wrong.
Slaves did revolt. many times, sometimes sucesfully.
Yes, there needs to be pressure. stop giving tips. here you got a pressure.
Yes, people need money to exist. They are NOT getting money in waiting industry. they should NOT take a job there. But they do, and here we have a core of a problem. As lnog as there are a mass of people agreeing to work for 2 dollars per hour, the problem will persist, and nothing can do anything about it till they themselves do.

I am not ignoring the supply demand. i am saying that we should discourage the supply (by not giving tips) so there woudl be more demand than supply, hence increasing the wage. Government encorfecment is good, but the minimum wage exceptions already prove thats not going to happen.

So, you said illegal immigrants work for even less. and they get by. and then you just said you cant live off that wage. but illegals can somehow. they dont need food or gas or home i guess, right?
No. they simply have been living of low wages all their lives and know how to not waste a cent.

Ground up will work only with the poor since they are the only ones that really dont have anything to loose.

Yes, i an condescending, i dont think wrong decisions should be rewarded with tips.

snip

Okay, the hotel has a business center so here at the hotel has computer so here is the figures that I saw.

http://smallbusiness.chron.com/average-profit-margin-restaurant-13477.html

At best there is a possible 5% profit margin, but on average, at all levels, the average profit margin is at around 3-3.5%.

Ok. Quite strange then, as 3-3,5 profit margin makes absolutely no sense from investment perpective. i guess there still are people who do it else there would be no restaurants to begin with, but no "big suit" would ever touch margins so low.

 

[DementedSheep]

From what I understand it because professions like waiters get paid shit in the US because there income is suppose to come from tips.

I live in New Zealand and tipping isn't really a thing here. Maybe if it's exceptional service beyond what is required but it's a bonus. I guess because we have a decent and livable minimum wage that is applied to everyone.

I don't like the idea of tipping being expected and required for a decent wage. That shit should be covered by the employer and built into the prices not relying on customer good will. If you're expected to pay an additional 10-15% anyway it might as well be in the listed price.

 

[DarkRyter]

they have an option. multiple actually. but us, custumers, with our tips, are feeding the broken system. we are at fault for supporting system we know is wrong.
Slaves did revolt. many times, sometimes sucesfully.
Yes, there needs to be pressure. stop giving tips. here you got a pressure.
Yes, people need money to exist. They are NOT getting money in waiting industry. they should NOT take a job there. But they do, and here we have a core of a problem. As lnog as there are a mass of people agreeing to work for 2 dollars per hour, the problem will persist, and nothing can do anything about it till they themselves do.

The alternative, however, is very much an inferior option. Rather then relying on percentage tips to pay servers, restaurants would raise menu prices accordingly and servers would be put on a flat rate wage.

There's no longer any incentive for the server to do anything pass the bare minimum of effort. They'll make the same either way.

There's no reason to be much of a saleperson either, with the loss of percentage tips. This is a detriment to the restaurant.

Remember, the waiter doesn't work for the restaurant. They work for the patron. And thus, the patron is in control of compensation. They are, for that meal, the patron's employee.

When you tip, you are paying the person who worked for you.

When you don't tip, you are cheating a worker out of their wage. If you consider time and effort as having some sort of value, you've stolen from them.

So, go out. Have a nice dinner at a good restaurant. Call over the restaurant owner, give him 20% of the bill, and tell him he should pay the servers a flat wage. They will laugh, and hand it over to your server.

It's not a broken system. Waiters do better than most minimum wage slave jobs anyway. Pizza drivers on good nights can do very well for themselves compared to cashiers and cooks.

 

[Strazdas]

The alternative, however, is very much an inferior option. Rather then relying on percentage tips to pay servers, restaurants would raise menu prices accordingly and servers would be put on a flat rate wage.

There's no longer any incentive for the server to do anything pass the bare minimum of effort. They'll make the same either way.

There's no reason to be much of a saleperson either, with the loss of percentage tips. This is a detriment to the restaurant.

Remember, the waiter doesn't work for the restaurant. They work for the patron. And thus, the patron is in control of compensation. They are, for that meal, the patron's employee.

When you tip, you are paying the person who worked for you.

When you don't tip, you are cheating a worker out of their wage. If you consider time and effort as having some sort of value, you've stolen from them.

So, go out. Have a nice dinner at a good restaurant. Call over the restaurant owner, give him 20% of the bill, and tell him he should pay the servers a flat wage. They will laugh, and hand it over to your server.

It's not a broken system. Waiters do better than most minimum wage slave jobs anyway. Pizza drivers on good nights can do very well for themselves compared to cashiers and cooks.

And the system would then work as intended. you get a flat rate wage from the money counted in price (thus not hiding it), and if you receive extra service you can give money to that server, personally, to him, without him having to share with the rest of the staff. there is more incentive actually, since now giving good service would be the only way to earn tips, and you wouldn't have to share tips with others.

The waiter works for the company that owns a restaurant. if he does not, then we got another problem.

When i tip, i am giving money to a specific person.

When i dont tip, i dont cheat anyone out of anything. the restaurant owner however is cheating the worker out of their wage by not setting their wage to a minimum. they GET PAID for time an effort. it is THEIR JOB.

Yeah, just because the owner will laugh does not mean hes not a greedy bastard. thats really a useless argument.

So you actually thing this system is good. well, i got nothing to say thats allowed within rules of this forum then.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

You know, I don't care to respond to everything you said this time, because it would more or less be pretty much the same thing I said the last time. You didn't agree then, despite how blindingly obviously correct it was, so why would you now? All I will say is this, these are the facts:

Tipping is considered a common courtesy in the U.S., so that their bosses can get away with paying the servers next to nothing (and in some cases ACTUALLY NOTHING). Anyone who tips is supporting and allowing this screwed up system to happen.

Tipping is supposed to be a way to show appreciation for servers who go above and beyond the call of duty to please their customers, both to reward them for it and to encourage them to do so consistently. However, tipping has now become something that's socially unacceptable not to do unless the server does a REALLY crappy job, and as a result there are far too many servers out there that just coast by, doing as little as possible and still raking it in with tips regardless. One is considered an cheap douche for refusing to tip when the fact is that those servers are simply doing their jobs, WHICH THEY ALREADY ARE BEING PAID FOR!!! It doesn't matter how much or how little they are being paid either. Nobody should tip anyone "because society says so" in fact, that's the stupidest reason to or not to do something.

If those servers make crap wages then they should be banding together and demanding higher wages from their employers like the workers in every other profession have done for decades and continuing to do, not extort it out of their customers. If they don't do this, then they have NO RIGHT to whine about the fact that some people don't give tips and definitely not to complain about the fact that they can't live off their crap wages.

 

[Galletea]

In the UK we also need to be careful about it, since a lot of places give you an option to tip when you pay on your card, and then your money doesn't even come back to the restaurant you were at. So I tend to pay on my card and then leave a separate tip if there has been decent service. When you've had shitty service a few times you become grateful for the mediocre. I tend to tip more in independent establishments though, I suppose I'm hopeful that the staff might end up with it.

 

[OneCatch]

Also, possibly because it's not seen as a requirement to tip over here, in the UK we sometimes get a 10% 'service charge' added to our bill, which is basically a tip added to the bill to make sure we pay (although you don't have to pay*, but then you've got to make a scene about it and it's a bit of a cultural no-no for Brits to make a scene ). Obviously you're really not expected to put an extra tip down after paying the service charge, but it can be ambiguous if this actually goes to the servers. The same goes when you add a tip when paying by card, not sure how it gets shared out.

See, I tend to refuse to pay the service charge, then leave the tip in cash on the table as per my normal routine (crap service gets nothing, acceptable service gets 5%, good gets 10-15% depending on how good). Usually averages around 10% anyway.

It pisses me off when they automatically add a gratuity on, it's a bit cheeky - especially given that, as has already been pointed out, in the UK waiting staff get paid reasonably anyway. I usually make a point of saying that I'd rather tip personally - hopefully if enough people do it the corporate types that decide these things will get the message.

And coupled with that there have been instances of companies taking an 'admin fee' from the tip to process tips paid by card with the rest of the bill. Which is shit. Hence why I always tip with cash.

 

[ExtraDebit]

Most asian countries doesn't have tipping culture either, even if you love the service. The waiter and waitress are expected to give a good service and never expects a tip. They do get paid more than minimal wages and the cost of meal is exactly as advertise but sometimes we get charge for "seat cost", i.e. you can charge around 25c per person.

I too really hate tipping culture, I like to paid what's on the menu or if they gonna charge me for a tip then put it on the damn check. I hate taking out a calculator everytime just for going to a restaurant.

 

[SaberXIII]

I get why a person would tip if they find the waitress/waiter has been really good, but why would we give a tip for okay/competent service. It just seems like serving staff being uppity and entitled. Why should serving staff expect a tip from every single customer and expect a percentage of the bill, isn't it meant to be a voluntary thing, not some compulsory charge for the consumer.

People think they're obligated, but to be honest you're really not. I've been a waiter myself, and we expect tips simply because most people give them but we never feel entitled to have one, (not in my experience, anyway). Not to downplay it, though, because we really do appreciate it. I expect if you go to a really high class restaurant then you're expected to tip because it's part of the etiquette, but if you don't leave a tip no rational waiter's going to spite you for it. We had a guy who came in every single week, never tipped, wonderful bloke.

 

[SaberXIII]

Waiters pretty much live off those tips so think of it as helping out another human being in rough times. Anyone who has been a waiter will know that it is very helpful to tip good.

I'm not disputing that tips are very helpful, but in my experience we don't live off them at all. It's a bit of extra cash, which is great, but what we live off is our actual wage. We probably worked in totally different places, but it's hard to believe the difference would be so big. If it's a waiter working in an up-market restaurant I'd be more inclined to agree with you, though.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

In the US, you should consider the tip into the cost or you should not eat out/ order delivery.

I usually tip high because I know they cannot live on the wages they receive. If my service is poor, I STILL tip, however, I may ask management for another server, or reduce the amount. Since I do usually tip well, I rarely get poor service at the same establishment twice. Hell sometimes servers fight over who gets to serve my table, and they send me free stuff from the kitchen and bar frequently.

There really is no excuse for not tipping in the US. If you cannot afford to take your date out to dinner and tip, make a picnic basket and go sit by a lake.

 

[Liham]

As far as I can tell, it's because in America it's legal to pay wait-staff less than minimum wage with the assumption that they'll make up for it in tips, so it's done to make sure people can survive.

As an Australian I really find this too be dumb, in Australia we generally only tip for exemplary service.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Waiters pretty much live off those tips so think of it as helping out another human being in rough times. Anyone who has been a waiter will know that it is very helpful to tip good.

I'm not disputing that tips are very helpful, but in my experience we don't live off them at all. It's a bit of extra cash, which is great, but what we live off is our actual wage. We probably worked in totally different places, but it's hard to believe the difference would be so big. If it's a waiter working in an up-market restaurant I'd be more inclined to agree with you, though.

You are aware that some places will fire employees who report they make under minimum wage, and will only hire employees who agree to be paid like $2.75 an hour right? Not all establishments are the same. Some are quite harsh.

I usually tip more at the lower cost places than I do at the fine dining places simply because the people working often make more on average the higher cost of the food. I figure those making less need it more since most people tip on a percentage rather than a dollar amount. I left a $100 tip for a $7 meal once. LOL

 

[Scars Unseen]

*shrug* If you do a good job, you get tipped. Do the bare minimum(or worse), and you don't. If you're not making money because you're bad at your job, that isn't my problem.

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

You shouldn't "expect" someone to tip.

Instead, you should go after the government for allowing your employers to pay you shit-all.

But no, that'd take work wouldn't it?

/edit

 

[the clockmaker]

Yeah, in 'Straya it isn't so much of an issue due to our kick arse employment environment. However, due to cultural osmosis from our yank buddies, we think it is a requirement. It is not.

That being said, I always tip at restaurants because, well I got money for everything that I want, so why not spread that shit around, yo?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

You shouldn't "expect" someone to tip.

Instead, you should get off your backside and go after the government for allowing your employers to pay you shit-all.

But no, that'd take work wouldn't it?

I would be all for them raising wages of employees, I also would be all for them raising their prices to do so. But then again, I also would be for them having a solid welfare system in place so that even poor families could enjoy a night out now and then, even with higher prices.

The problem is you have to fix all of those things in order for this to work, and that would require the majority of people thinking this is a good idea, and be willing to pay higher taxes, and higher prices. Otherwise you will have businesses close because the majority of the people in the US would not be able to afford to eat out in the first place.

 

[the clockmaker]

You shouldn't "expect" someone to tip.

Instead, you should get off your backside and go after the government for allowing your employers to pay you shit-all.

But no, that'd take work wouldn't it?

Sorry, mate, but your page says that you are just turning 18 yeah? (congrats, have a draught for me btw) I know that you are not gonna like hearing this, but 18 is not the time to be chastising the rest of the workforce for not working hard enough.

Out of curiosity, what is it that you do for a living?

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

You know, I don't care to respond to everything you said this time, because it would more or less be pretty much the same thing I said the last time. You didn't agree then, despite how blindingly obviously correct it was, so why would you now? All I will say is this, these are the facts:

Tipping is considered a common courtesy in the U.S., so that their bosses can get away with paying the servers next to nothing (and in some cases ACTUALLY NOTHING). Anyone who tips is supporting and allowing this screwed up system to happen.

Tipping is supposed to be a way to show appreciation for servers who go above and beyond the call of duty to please their customers, both to reward them for it and to encourage them to do so consistently. However, tipping has now become something that's socially unacceptable not to do unless the server does a REALLY crappy job, and as a result there are far too many servers out there that just coast by, doing as little as possible and still raking it in with tips regardless. One is considered an cheap douche for refusing to tip when the fact is that those servers are simply doing their jobs, WHICH THEY ALREADY ARE BEING PAID FOR!!! It doesn't matter how much or how little they are being paid either. Nobody should tip anyone "because society says so" in fact, that's the stupidest reason to or not to do something.

If those servers make crap wages then they should be banding together and demanding higher wages from their employers like the workers in every other profession have done for decades and continuing to do, not extort it out of their customers. If they don't do this, then they have NO RIGHT to whine about the fact that some people don't give tips and definitely not to complain about the fact that they can't live off their crap wages.

It isn't like servers can demand anything. They are considered a dime a dozen and employers just get rid of them and take the next starving person for the job. Hell in non union states, employers will tell you ahead of time that they will be fired if they join a union. You are punishing those that are already unable to feed themselves by not tipping. You STILL tip, but then elect officials that will hopefully change this. That is all you can really do, as in the end, these people can't afford to wait for the system to change to keep a roof over their heads or feed their kids. If they could afford to fight their employers or find better jobs, I am sure they would have done so already.

According to the education and economic development committee, we are short like 22 million jobs in the underqualifed areas. When you have that many people fighting for jobs, you cannot expect this to get better anytime soon. What are you proposing these people do in the meantime when they need a place to live today and food on the table tonight? If you have the answers to that I would gladly try to speed things up, but since this is not something quickly and easily solved, I care about what happens to these people today.

When they have to be paid $2.75 an hour or nothing, it DOES matter how much they are being paid when they have to find somewhere to live. Of course you could vote to have your taxes raised to pay for them to be built homes and fed and not work for these people, but you will have to get the majority vote for this to happen. When you get the majority vote, then we can stop tipping.

 

[Loonyyy]

If you have to rely on tips in order to get by in life, then you need to do what everyone else does when they're not making enough money.

Get another job.

And yeah I understand that sometimes that's not always possible - that depending on your country there may be literally no jobs available at all in your area, and so you'd rather earn some money than no money. But you know what? That's life. Tips are not a charity service. Anyone who asks for a tip deserves the middle finger pointed in their direction.

Is that harsh? Yes I admit it is. You know what else is harsh? That people have to rely on tips to survive in the first place. That shit needs to change.

Yeah, whenever I feel I don't have enough money, I just apply for the next CEO position and get it.

Oh wait, you mean there's such a thing as unemployment? You mean that some of these jobs have to be done, and that they're going to have to pay someone? That it's possible to be unqualified for certain positions? That it's possible to be unable to acquire anything but a minimum wage job?

Anyone who thinks that if you need tips to survive, especaially when some people need those tips because they're paid less than minimum wage, you don't deserve one, and deserve a middle finger, deserves to have to live off next to nothing, paycheck to paycheck. And also taste the spit in their food. That's a disgusting attitude, and demonstrates a complete lack of empathy, or even the bare minimum understanding of how the real world works.