I don't understand tipping culture...

[Fox12]

I always fought with my friend over this. Every time we went out with a group, he refused to tip, figuring everybody else could front the bill. Whenever I called him out on it he would complain about not having enough money to be able to tip, at which point I told him he shouldn't be eating out at all then. Once I told him he really needed to tip, because we had received particularly good service from a nice waiter. As we're leaving I see him slip the money back in his pocket. I always factor tipping into the bill. If you can't afford to tip, don't out. The only time I don't tip is if I'm angry at the waiters service, or if they're rude. In that case I won't tip them.

It's alright though, now I just have an excuse to make more Jew jokes at his expense.

 

[shootthebandit]

Think of eating out like fixing your car. You get charged parts and labour. The food is the equivelant of the parts and the waiting is the labour (its a loose analogy but stick with it)

You can go to a garage and just get the parts and fix it yourself ( a buffet where you help yourself) or you can pay parts and labour (waited restraunt). You dont get a bill for the parts and then decide if you want to pay the mechanic or not....so why treat waiters the same?

Analogy fail.

Buying the parts and fixing it yourself is more like preparing your own dinner.
Paying a mechanic to fix it for you is more like getting take out.

Neither is like going to a sit down restaurant, where you're being served, because the mechanic is not continuously checking up on you, making sure the repair is to your satisfaction and immediately acting rectify the situation if it's not.

I did say it was a loose analogy. All i was trying to say is that when you get your car fixed you dont just buy the parts and decide if you want to pay the mechanic or not despite the fact hes done a job. For the same reason when you eat out you shouldnt decide wether to pay the wait staff or not. It should be included in the cost wether your bill includes service charges or if its simply included in the cost of the food

 

[madwarper]

I did say it was a loose analogy. All i was trying to say is that when you get your car fixed you dont just buy the parts and decide if you want to pay the mechanic or not despite the fact hes done a job. For the same reason when you eat out you shouldnt decide wether to pay the wait staff or not. It should be included in the cost wether your bill includes service charges or if its simply included in the cost of the food

You keep trying to equate the mechanic with a food server. And, it's still a bad compassion. The mechanic is the cook.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

You know what? Screw it. I am right, you are wrong, and I've already given plenty of reasons in this thread as to why that any halfway reasonable person would have agreed with by now, in fact would have agreed with a long time ago. You just don't want to admit it.

 

[dcdude171]

Because most waiters make less than minimum wage around 5 dollars.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

You know what? Screw it. I am right, you are wrong, and I've already given plenty of reasons in this thread as to why that any halfway reasonable person would have agreed with by now, in fact would have agreed with a long time ago. You just don't want to admit it.

Yea, keep telling yourself that. You want to tell others to " get the balls" but you wouldn't do that yourself. I am not sure there is anyone who would agree they should starve and become homeless to attempt to accomplish long term goals that may or may not happen within their lifetime. That would just be stupid.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Yea, keep telling yourself that. You want to tell others to " get the balls" but you wouldn't do that yourself. I am not sure there is anyone who would agree they should starve and become homeless to attempt to accomplish long term goals that may or may not happen within their lifetime. That would just be stupid.

All the people who have gone on strike, formed Unions and so on and continue to do so who have done just that would disagree with you. People have sacrificed their own comfort, security, and even their own well being countless times to get what they want, and I have no doubt you know it.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Yea, keep telling yourself that. You want to tell others to " get the balls" but you wouldn't do that yourself. I am not sure there is anyone who would agree they should starve and become homeless to attempt to accomplish long term goals that may or may not happen within their lifetime. That would just be stupid.

All the people who have gone on strike, formed Unions and so on and continue to do so who have done just that would disagree with you.

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Yea, keep telling yourself that. You want to tell others to " get the balls" but you wouldn't do that yourself. I am not sure there is anyone who would agree they should starve and become homeless to attempt to accomplish long term goals that may or may not happen within their lifetime. That would just be stupid.

All the people who have gone on strike, formed Unions and so on and continue to do so who have done just that would disagree with you. People have sacrificed their own comfort, security, and even their own well being countless times to get what they want, and I have no doubt you know it.

Strikes only work when they don't get fired and starve to death for striking. Strikes do not work when they either 1) close shop and sell out to someone else like Hostess did 2) Close shop and move away entirely or 3) they just fire all employees who participate in such and hire new ones. Employers in Texas, for example will flat out tell you if they find out someone is participating in a union they will be fired. You DO understand what a "right to work state" is don't you?

Sacrificing comfort and security is not what you are asking of these people. They already do not have "comfort and security" those things are considered luxury. You cannot afford comfort and security on a servers pay EVEN with tips. What you are proposing is them not having food and an efficiency apartment in a high crime neighborhood, because that is what they have to lose here on their current pay including tips.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

 

[immortalfrieza]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

Take a look here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57596952/will-fast-food-protests-spur-higher-minimum-wage/

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

Take a look here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57596952/will-fast-food-protests-spur-higher-minimum-wage/

That's surprising, although only two of the protests happened in a "right to work" state -- the better term for which is "at will." As in, your employer can legally fire you for any reason or no reason. They're called "right to work" because it's illegal to be required to join a union in those states. Of those, Michigan's law /just/ took effect, so people may not be used to it, and the version Kansas has is an amendment to the State constitution from 1958, which is very different from the ones other states have, in that it doesn't make it so you can be fired for no reason whatsoever, and in fact specifically prohibits employers from firing workers for unionizing.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

Take a look here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57596952/will-fast-food-protests-spur-higher-minimum-wage/

Fast food employees ALREADY make more than servers do. Servers do not even make enough to do that. People think Fast food guys have it bad, they have no idea how bad it is for some servers.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

I don't know about your country, but that hasn't happened in the US in my lifetime. The republican party has demonized Unions to the point that it's almost a curse word. Work relations haven't been this bad since the 19th century. There have been strikes, but they've been carried out by pre-existing unions, and those are fewer and farther between every year.

I'm talking about the U.S. and lately it's been happening with the fast food industry a lot.

Has it actually been fast food workers, though? Because all I've heard about are farm hands working for the farms that supply the fast food restaurants. Typically people who harvest tomatos, for some reason.

Take a look here: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-57596952/will-fast-food-protests-spur-higher-minimum-wage/

That's surprising, although only two of the protests happened in a "right to work" state -- the better term for which is "at will." As in, your employer can legally fire you for any reason or no reason. They're called "right to work" because it's illegal to be required to join a union in those states. Of those, Michigan's law /just/ took effect, so people may not be used to it, and the version Kansas has is an amendment to the State constitution from 1958, which is very different from the ones other states have, in that it doesn't make it so you can be fired for no reason whatsoever, and in fact specifically prohibits employers from firing workers for unionizing.

I think in Michigan's case, since the unions actually do have power there, one union gets support from other unions, so it would be bad press and for business for them to fire employees striking. They have much more leverage when they have public support. This doesn't do well in Texas when the majority of the public here is anti union, so there is no community support and people do not think twice about employers firing people for protesting. It does not harm their businesses here for them to do so, the businesses here can do so at will.

In Michigan, with unions having community support, they actually can harm their business with such actions giving them power to be more effective. Without that community support unions are rendered powerless.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

Sigh... and they always WILL BE powerless if nobody's willing to stand up and DO something!!! How can I possibly get it across to you that Unions, strikes, and so on have been proven to work, but not unless people are willing to TRY? Even if they fail it still accomplishes more than just sitting on their rear ends and just living with the way things are.

Snip

Believe me, these kind of protests happen all the time, even in those so called "right to work" states. In fact, thanks to the recession they seem to be happening a lot more often, since the only jobs that are plentiful are the ones that have crap pay. Obviously that means that people are going to want their wages to go up, so they're going to start striking and Unionizing.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

Sigh... and they always WILL BE if nobody's willing to stand up and DO something!!! How can I possibly get it across to you that Unions, strikes, and so on have been proven to work, but not unless people are willing to TRY? Even if they fail it still accomplishes more than just sitting on their rear ends and just living with the way things are.

Snip

Believe me, these kind of protests happen all the time, even in those so called "right to work" states. In fact, thanks to the recession they seem to be happening a lot more often, since the only jobs that are plentiful are the ones that have crap pay. Obviously that means that people are going to want their wages to go up, so they're going to start striking and Unionizing.

Yea they work really well in Texas right?
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/06/19/walmart-files-trespass-lawsuits-against-protesters/
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/Walmart-Sues-Union-Protesters-in-Fort-Worth-212018061.html
http://www.law360.com/articles/30554/company-union-sued-for-forcing-workers-to-join
They do try here and get stomped back down before anything comes of it. You have to have community support for this to work. They simply do not have that in Texas. " union" is considered like " swearing" in Texas. LOL

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

It was the same for the rest of the country decades ago before the very idea of Unions was ever conceived. However, you're right, despite decades of time, effort, and sacrifices Unions were unanimously a failure and strikes never accomplished anything.

Oh wait...

The direct opposite is true. Unions and strikes have failed plenty of times, but they've also succeeded plenty of times. Again I have no doubt you already know that and are just ignoring those facts because if you didn't you'd have to admit that you are wrong. Just because they don't work in Texas now is no reason to think that they will never work. Yours is one of most defeatist attitudes I have ever heard.

Besides, so what if Unions and strikes will never work in Texas? What about the REST OF THE COUNTRY!?! You've conveniently ignored that Unions and strikes HAVE worked in pretty much every other state, even if it's not that often.

 

[Lil devils x_v1legacy]

Snip

It was the same for the rest of the country decades ago before the very idea of Unions was ever conceived. However, you're right, despite decades of time, effort, and sacrifices Unions were unanimously a failure and strikes never accomplished anything.

Oh wait...

The direct opposite is true. Unions and strikes have failed plenty of times, but they've also succeeded plenty of times. Again I have no doubt you already know that and are just ignoring those facts because if you didn't you'd have to admit that you are wrong. Just because they don't work in Texas now is no reason to think that they will never work. Yours is one of most defeatist attitudes I have ever heard.

Besides, so what if Unions and strikes will never work in Texas? What about the REST OF THE COUNTRY!?! You've conveniently ignored that Unions and strikes HAVE worked in pretty much every other state, even if it's not that often.

My point is, that you have to actually HAVE community support for unions to be effective. You empower the people and gain the community support prior to waging a war on it. All you do by not tipping servers is take even more power away from them, they can't pay to live little lone pay for union dues. Without union dues the union does not have the power to gain legal representation. You are rendering those individuals that you refuse to tip penniless and powerless. They currently are not in a position to fight back, and you are not enabling them to do so by refusing to tip them.

If you want to actually help further this along, you tip them, and you fight for them legally to have better conditions at the same time. You change this with your votes, your money, and volunteer to help them. That is how these things are accomplished, you don't just stand there and yell at them to do something when they lack the ability to do so. That is like trying to yell at someone paralyzed to walk. If they lack the ability, all you are doing by yelling at them is making an ass of yourself.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

No, what you do is refuse to tip them and fight for them legally to have better conditions. By tipping you are robbing them of the motivation necessary to fight to increase their wages. It's not like yelling at a paralyzed person to walk, it's more like yelling at a crack addict to go get clean. With the former, he's unable to do what you're yelling at him to do, with the latter he's unwilling to do what you're yelling at him to do, and servers are the latter. All the fighting for better conditions for anyone means jack if they aren't willing to do anything.