I don't understand why people enjoy Dark Souls/Demon's Souls

[CitrusLover]

*I know this has most likely popped up dozens of times, but I'm too lazy to search through past threads to find the subject.

Now, I get the idea that a really unforgiving RPG could be a lot of fun, I mean I love to play Roguelikes like Hack, Slash, Loot and POWDER but what separates them from Dark Souls and Demon's Souls (at least for me), is that every time you die you play in a different dungeon as a different adventurer dude or dudette, while in Dark/Demon's Souls its always the same dull, boring, washed out levels.

Also, both Dark Souls and Demon's Souls share a problem that if you don't know every mechanic, level, boss, where every weapon is, how to get useful item at all times then you're not playing properly. I know not every game has to be straight-foward and linear, but it seems counter intuitive to make it that complicated and rage inducing if you don't have all the best weapons, items and armour because you the game makes it too hard to obtain them.

Or do you think I am looking at this the wrong way?

 

[Daystar Clarion]

The biggest misconception surrounding the series is that people only play it for the difficulty.

I personally love the atmosphere of the series, sure, the difficulty plays a huge part in setting that feeling of dread, but the world these games take place in are a lot deeper than they first appear.

 

[sanquin]

The whole game has a very bleak feel yes, but that's the point. The levels are far from dull and boring. They took a realistic approach to the level design, rather than a fantasy approach. Every building and item makes sense in the places where you find them. And if you take a moment to explore, talk to npc's, and look for details, you'll notice that the world is a lot deeper than it first appears to be.

Also, it's not remotely needed to know every mechanic, level, boss and item in the game to finish it. The game is all about trial and error. You get to a boss, you find out what it does, you die, you try again. And if an area is clearly too difficult, you find a different area that's less difficult. Getting the best weapons and armour isn't needed either. You can beat the entire game with just your starter gear.

And that's the beauty of dark souls' gameplay. With skill and by looking for attack patterns and such you can beat any enemy. But trying to straight-up attack most enemies will get you killed.

That being said, I realise the game isn't for everyone. But that once again is the point of dark souls. It's not a game for everyone. It wants to cater to a specific type of gamer, not to focus groups or the general public. So if you don't enjoy it, well, so be it. No loss for you or for the fans of the game, right?

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

The Souls games aren't even hard. You don't need to know where everything is. You can buy the best weapons, at least in Dark Souls, and then you just level them up to make them uber. I think all I did was level my primary katana all the way up, my shield to like level 5, and I don't even think I leveled my clothes (I didn't wear armor, I wanted the faster dodge). I was disappointed at how simple Dark Souls was, all you had to do was block and use the basic attack all game. I thought the game would make you use the advanced moves and the riposte, but it never does. Just take it slow and be careful, that's really all you have to do. This one dragon cursed me the first time I faced him, then I came back with my best curse resistance clothes and items, and I didn't even have to block once the whole battle, I just mashed the normal attack. You can cheese enemies so easy with the bow and arrow as well.

 

[lapan]

*I know this has most likely popped up dozens of times, but I'm too lazy to search through past threads to find the subject.

Now, I get the idea that a really unforgiving RPG could be a lot of fun, I mean I love to play Roguelikes like Hack, Slash, Loot and POWDER but what separates them from Dark Souls and Demon's Souls (at least for me), is that every time you die you play in a different dungeon as a different adventurer dude or dudette, while in Dark/Demon's Souls its always the same dull, boring, washed out levels.

Also, both Dark Souls and Demon's Souls share a problem that if you don't know every mechanic, level, boss, where every weapon is, how to get useful item at all times then you're not playing properly. I know not every game has to be straight-foward and linear, but it seems counter intuitive to make it that complicated and rage inducing if you don't have all the best weapons, items and armour because you the game makes it too hard to obtain them.

Or do you think I am looking at this the wrong way?

Well, one reason is that it's not nearly as hard as it's made out to be. It does have a steep learning curve, but once you got down the basic mechanics it's not really that hard.

Secondly it offers many different ways to play the game. As far as action RPGs go, it has one of the most diverse arsenal of weapons and spells. Being able to clear the entire game with dual shields if i choose is a gigantic plus for me.

There is no definite best weapon in the game. It entirely depends on your playstyle.

 

[Windcaler]

May I ask where you got these preconceptions? I ask because they are most certainly misinformed.

Let me try and start at the beginning with the first claim. " in Dark/Demon's Souls its always the same dull, boring, washed out levels."

Now Ive not played Demon's souls so anything I say will only be about Dark souls and you should also consider this a SPOILER WARNING. So youre complaint is that the levels are dull, boring, and washed out. Im unsure what you mean by washed out but may I ask, what is wrong with ruined castles and ruins that are crumbling due to the lack of mantinence over the centuries? What is dull and boring about vast lava filled caverns leading into a hidden city (lost izalith) in which a massive tree's roots are encroaching upon it? What is dull and boring about the light fueled city of the gods guarded by giants and silver knights that really turns out to be a darkness covered and lifeless place after its illusions are gone? What is dull and boring about entering a haunted city left to time for tens of thousands of years and unleashing one of the greatest threats of man when you must unflood the city to destroy its kings? All of that sounds like pretty epic stuff to me especially when one of the key themes in the game is "nothing lasts forever". Now the argument can be made that they're all the same in each playthrough but so what? I tend to reply games quite a bit

To also touch on the "same dude/dudette" idea, well no. The only thing you have in common is you are the chosen undead of your dimension. Similar to how in Skyrim you are always the Dragonborn. The chosen undead can be anyone, from any walk of life, and from anywhere. The only thing that must happen to be the chosen undead is you must be undead and you must escape the undead asylum. At that point you have the potential to be the chosen undead like so many before you but only the true chosen undead can claim the lordvessel and either link the flame or snuff it out (both are very personal choices and I don't equate either as the "good" ending to the game). I had one character whose backstory was an inquisitor in Catarina and he became a darkmoon blade so he could continue to hunt the guilty. I have another character who is an honorable Darkwraith from the great swamp and she likes to leave people presents before ruthlessly killing them for their humanity. I have another who was an illegal pit fighter in Astora and now wields a pair of Dragon bone fists while fighting people as an honorable Darkwraith. Then theres another character who was a Knight from Catarina and now he helps others through Jolly cooperation! These characters and more show one constant, the blank slate they give you allows you to build a character your way and roleplay them to your standards. The only thing you really have in common is that you escaped the undead asylum, your undead, and your in lordron. Why you pursue the quest of the chosen undead or even if you pursue it is entirely up to you, the player.

Now lets talk about this idea that if you don't know everything about the game you aren't playing it properly. Frankly that's nonsense. Many of the items, lore, covenants, armor, and weapons are there as exploratory rewards. You can finish the game without ever leveling up or upgrading any of your armor (Ive done it). The first few times you play through the game theres a big sense of accomplishment when you get something. For example the first time I found the Zwienhander and tried it out, I was bloody amazed. I still love that weapon, especially when you swing it and at the very end you hear that satisfying "Wham!" at the end of a swing. Hell half the fun of the game, for me, is just experimenting with new weapon/armor combinations in PVP environments. I love dueling and I love dueling with all kinds of crazy combinations. Some of them work, some of them don't, but I always have fun trying out something new. Getting back to your point, Im not sure what is "playing the game properly" because as my short character explanation shows you can play the game anyway you want to. You can be as knowlegable or unknowlegable as you want. You can cheap shot bosses, hell you can avoid some of them altogether if you like. You can go hunt the rich lore or not. Whatever you want to do. As long as you aren't cheating and your still trying to progress IMO your playing the game right. Sure youre going to die sometimes, but so what? We all did. What matters is getting passed that and not failing at the game. The only way to fail at the game is to put down the controller and never pick it up again and if you do that, its still ok because that just means dark souls wasn't for you.

I think you are looking at it the wrong way, or at least a very different way from how most people within the Dark souls community look at the game. To be fair, there are some things that Dark souls could do to be better for everyone like a better tutorial and a more comprehensive help and stats system that explains things better. Theres also the issue of other games, for lack of a better word, conditioning gamers to overlook simple warning signs like burned bodies on the dragon bridge, or blood stains on an elevator that leads up into spikes, or those pressure plates that littered in Sen's fortress.

At the end of the day, I love the game and if you don't like it that's ok. We all have different tastes and as one of my favorite commentators has said "Its ok to not like things just don't be a dick about it"

 

[alphamalet]

Oh god! Not this again! Can we all just make a pact right now to ignore these and tell them to go to the 1000 other threads that have already been made on this topic?

Ehh...I'll indulge this for one last time...

*I know this has most likely popped up dozens of times, but I'm too lazy to search through past threads to find the subject.

Now, I get the idea that a really unforgiving RPG could be a lot of fun, I mean I love to play Roguelikes like Hack, Slash, Loot and POWDER but what separates them from Dark Souls and Demon's Souls (at least for me), is that every time you die you play in a different dungeon as a different adventurer dude or dudette, while in Dark/Demon's Souls its always the same dull, boring, washed out levels.

I understand if you don't like forced repetition, but let's be honest about the art design. It isn't all the same, dull, washed out castles. Click on the spoiler to see what I'm talking about!

[spoiler = click to see the beauty of Dark Souls]

[/spoiler]
The game is gorgeous.

Also, both Dark Souls and Demon's Souls share a problem that if you don't know every mechanic, level, boss, where every weapon is, how to get useful item at all times then you're not playing properly. I know not every game has to be straight-foward and linear, but it seems counter intuitive to make it that complicated and rage inducing if you don't have all the best weapons, items and armour because you the game makes it too hard to obtain them.

I agree that both games could give a bit more explanation on some of the stats, but there is no "right way" to play the game. That's why it's an RPG... you're supposed to pick the style that suits you. Additionally, they don't make the good weapons impossible to get, nor do you need them. There are a ton of messages left in-game by other players to help you along the way, and to give you clues on where to find some of the more obscure items.

If you are getting bogged down by thinking you need to know every nook and cranny in each level, then you aren't going to play the game the way it was meant to be played. The game is supposed to be approached by traversing, navigating, and conquering the unknown. The gratification comes from overcoming the unknown with increasingly difficult odds, and having your curiosity rewarded by finding a rare item occasionally as you explore. Knowing where everything is and how to do each boss beforehand would ruin the game!

 

[Foolery]

I don't get why people say it isn't hard. It is hard. But a reasonable type of hard. Yes, the game will punish you less if you figure out the mechanics, but it's still a decent challenge. I never played for the story either. The game gives you the bare-bones version of what happens. However, most of the story is up to the player to find out, through talking to NPC's, reading item descriptions, and deciphering clues in the environment.

 

[JazzJack2]

I know not every game has to be straight-foward and linear, but it seems counter intuitive to make it that complicated and rage inducing if you don't have all the best weapons, items and armour because you the game makes it too hard to obtain them.

Better equipment is more challenging to find, rewarding players who explore more. In what conceivable way is that counter-intuitive? I guess it would be a legit complaint if you needed the best equipment to beat the game but you simply don't (in fact people have beaten the game using only the starting gear).

 

[krazykidd]

*I know this has most likely popped up dozens of times, but I'm too lazy to search through past threads to find the subject.

Now, I get the idea that a really unforgiving RPG could be a lot of fun, I mean I love to play Roguelikes like Hack, Slash, Loot and POWDER but what separates them from Dark Souls and Demon's Souls (at least for me), is that every time you die you play in a different dungeon as a different adventurer dude or dudette, while in Dark/Demon's Souls its always the same dull, boring, washed out levels.

Also, both Dark Souls and Demon's Souls share a problem that if you don't know every mechanic, level, boss, where every weapon is, how to get useful item at all times then you're not playing properly. I know not every game has to be straight-foward and linear, but it seems counter intuitive to make it that complicated and rage inducing if you don't have all the best weapons, items and armour because you the game makes it too hard to obtain them.

Or do you think I am looking at this the wrong way?

Lol what ? If you know where everything is ... Then what's the point? It's like people who look at game faqs then say the game is easy .

 

[Rack]

Random dungeon design doesn't make every level different, it makes every level the same. I don't think the randomisation of level design actually makes much difference in many roguelikes.

With Dark Souls the experience is generally different as your increased familiarity with the level means you need to adapt your tactics to the changing situation. In addition because you are constantly levelling it never feels like time is being stolen from you. Lastly it just isn't THAT hard outside of a handful of difficulty spikes so you don't really end up repeating a huge amount of content a huge amount of times.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Also, both Dark Souls and Demon's Souls share a problem that if you don't know every mechanic, level, boss, where every weapon is, how to get useful item at all times then you're not playing properly. I know not every game has to be straight-foward and linear, but it seems counter intuitive to make it that complicated and rage inducing if you don't have all the best weapons, items and armour because you the game makes it too hard to obtain them.

Lol what ? If you know where everything is ... Then what's the point? It's like people who look at game faqs then say the game is easy .

I have to echo Kidd, here.

To say you're not playing the game properly because you don't know everything about it right from the start is like saying you're not doing a puzzle properly because you don't already know the answer.

The biggest misconception surrounding the series is that people only play it for the difficulty.

I feel this also need to be echoed. The difficulty isn't the only reason people play Demon's/Dark Souls. There's a lot more to these games than their difficulty.

Now, I get the idea that a really unforgiving RPG could be a lot of fun, I mean I love to play Roguelikes like Hack, Slash, Loot and POWDER but what separates them from Dark Souls and Demon's Souls (at least for me), is that every time you die you play in a different dungeon as a different adventurer dude or dudette, while in Dark/Demon's Souls its always the same dull, boring, washed out levels.

Uh, what? What dull, boring and washed out levels are you talking about? All of them are varied and interesting in their own way. I think further elaboration is required.

Neither Demon's Souls nor Dark Souls are Rougelike titles. Not even in the slightest. From my understanding, Rougelikes are commonly characterized by permanent death, level/character randomization and turn-based movement(I've never played a Rougelike before, this is just what I've gathered over time, so I could be wrong). None of which exist in either Souls title and most likely won't exist in Dark Souls II. Where people are getting the Rougelike comparison from is beyond me. It certainly can't be the not-so-comparable game mechanics.

Also, both Dark Souls and Demon's Souls share a problem that if you don't know every mechanic, level, boss, where every weapon is, how to get useful item at all times then you're not playing properly.

Just how are you playing improperly if you don't already know where everything is at? That's the point of being able to, I dunno, explore the environment. The inverse of this is what would be the perfect example of playing the game improperly. This, however, is grossly incorrect; you need to get your money back from wherever you got this information.

I know not every game has to be straight-foward and linear, but it seems counter intuitive to make it that complicated and rage inducing if you don't have all the best weapons, items and armour because you the game makes it too hard to obtain them.

Neither Demon's Souls nor Dark Souls are that complicated or difficult. Things are hidden, go find them. Better things are more cleverly hidden. Go find them. Looking harder, thinking more cleverly and exploring more deeply will reward you with better equipment and better items. There's no way this is counter-intuitive in the slightest.

Or do you think I am looking at this the wrong way?

The way you're looking at it is so far bass ackwards that you're seeing good points as bad points.

 

[Able Seacat]

I loved the exploration in Dark Souls. In a lot of games you run around an area not really fearing anything unless it's obvious (a fall, lava pit etc.) but in Dark Souls you have to be cautious. I found myself walking slow in-case of traps and checking around corners with my shield up in preparation of enemies.

But of course just because it's popular doesn't mean you have to feel the same way. Maybe it's just not for you.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

This topic has been done to death, but this is a truth that bears repeating for all these "I don't understand how anyone likes..." topics that are thinly disguised slams on popular titles.

Not liking something is fine. Everyone has their tastes, and tastes will vary. Everyone will, at some point in their life, encounter something popular they simply cannot bring themselves to enjoy. That's life, right?

However, not being able to understand how someone else can enjoy something is an indictment of your ability to think outside yourself, not an indictment of the item in question. I hate Celine Dion, but I understand why some people might enjoy her. I hate Two and a Half Men, but I understand why some people might find it funny. I dislike a great many things, but my ability to understand the world does not end where my preferences do.

Can we just start naming these topics appropriately? Title them "I don't like game X, defend it to me so I can shout you down", or "I'm needing a hot topic badge, popular game is rubbish! Discuss."

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Some very basic gaming mechanics such as the poor lock-on system and lack of a pause option really dragged it down for me.

Uh...poor lock-on system? I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't realize it was difficult to click R3(or whatever it is for keyboard) (de)activate the lock, or simply move the stick to change targets. In what way is the lock-on system poor?

I don't have a problem with it, but I can see why others may dislike the absence of a pause feature. So I'm leaving that can of worms alone.

Edited for brevity/clarity.

 

[Jamous]

It's immensely satisfying, the combat, while ridiculous, is pretty awesome, the environments are beautiful, and the enemy designs are excellent. Also, it's just fun to play. Infuriating but fun.

 

[Quicksilver_Phoenix]

Uh...poor lock-on system? I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't realize it was difficult to click R3(or whatever it is for keyboard) to lock and cancel that lock. Or that it was difficult to simply move the stick in the direction of the target you want to change your lock to. In what way is the lock-on system poor?

I don't have a problem with it, but I can see why others may dislike the absence of a pause feature. So I'm leaving that can of worms alone.

I love these games and I even I can admit; it's very frustrating to lock onto an enemy in the background when there's one nibbling your shins. The Shrine of Storms is particularly bad for this with all of those Storm Beasts flying around.

 

[TeaCeremony]

I think difficulty is a big part of it. I found this out when i played Red Orchestra 2 for the first time. Coming from CoD where i got 40+ kills on a regular basis i expected something as frantic and fast paced as CoD was... boy was i in for a surprise.

Spawn and run out, BAM shot in the nutsack (as depicted by a broken acorn) in less than 20 seconds. Next try, crouch and walk around the corner, BAM bayonet in the back. Next try, run up stairs and poke out the window, shoot and get a kill, BAM cooked grenade through the window takes out my arm and leg.

After about 2 hours of it i started being alot more patient, lying in ditches for up to 10 minutes to kill 1 guy with a well placed Kar-98 shot. Theres something incredibly satisfying playing a game that is brutal as dark souls or RO2 and emerging victorious from a small 1v1 encounter compared to playing something like BF3 or CoD and getting 10 kill streaks.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

I love these games and I even I can admit; it's very frustrating to lock onto an enemy in the background when there's one nibbling your shins. The Shrine of Storms is particularly bad for this with all of those Storm Beasts flying around.

Hrm. I'm not sure what you're doing. I've never had problems locking onto Storm Beasts(except for when I try to, I can't lock onto them for my life), or enemies that are in the background. Whenever I use the lock-on system, it snaps to the monster closest to me by default. Unless my camera is pointed directly at another monster, to which it will snap to them. I honestly can't see any problems with the lock system that can't be subverted by simply having the monster directly in your sight when you lock onto them. Even if I do target another monster, all I have to do is flick the stick in the direction of what I want to target and bam, target changed.

Edited for addendum that I left out by mistake.