The ending was poorly explained, full of plot holes, and character invalidation. Enough said moving on, next thread!
I liked the ending to Mass Effect 3
- Thread starter JackandTom
- Start date
Honestly it's not whether or not he was using FTL flight that I care about. Fine you've made a good point, that's what he was using. It's the fact that he was fleeing the battle that bothers me. It really does not make sense why Joker would just abandon the fight.Bara_no_Hime said:
Now it is especially obvious that he is fleeing since I now know that he was using FTL. To crash land on an alien planet would mean that he had been fleeing for quite some time. It seems like he dropped Shepard off and then just fled.
There are just far too many nonsensical decisions in this ending. It is like someone who had not been paying any attention to the trilogy was hired to quickly read a brief plot summary of the last 2 games and then write the ending of the third.
I am very active on Bioware forum. Angry Joe's video was made using arguments we provided on Bioware forums. All you have to do is go there and take a look for yourself.trooper6 said:
I liked the ending, but I also think would have been better if they had added some "this is what happened because of your choices" info about the various events of the game.
I myself selected the "Green" option.
[spoilers]The idea of sacrificing myself to end the "inevitable" cycle, and take the next step in galactic evolution felt appropriate for my Sheperd (even if it did feel like a rip off of Foundation). Though I have been tempted to re-do it as "Red", just so I have the chance to survivie and make those blue babies
[/spoilers]
I myself selected the "Green" option.
[spoilers]The idea of sacrificing myself to end the "inevitable" cycle, and take the next step in galactic evolution felt appropriate for my Sheperd (even if it did feel like a rip off of Foundation). Though I have been tempted to re-do it as "Red", just so I have the chance to survivie and make those blue babies
[/spoilers]
Yeah, I liked the ending. I can see why people didn't and in fact I agree with some of the reasons people hated it but I don't think that makes it bad and I still like it. It also, in no way justifies the absurd level of hatred. Anything Bioware put on FB; the comments are just flooded with "change the ending" "ending sucked" or other such nuanced points.
As to the claim that us 'likers' don't give reasons? Ok here you go:
The very end and the explanation.
I loved it. I generally find any narrative closure unsatisfying unless it's one of two things; left ambiguous or cyclical. The explanation for the Reapers was wonderful. The inevitable conflict between organic and synthetic being stopped by synthetics destroying organics and preserving as synthetic records of themselves is...beautiful. It's so precise and exact like clockwork. What would you have preferred, the Reapers were just like the Geth but got out of hand and started killing everyone? Yawn, boring, unimaginative. THAT would have killed the franchise for me. Every Reaper since ME1 has been saying how they're our "salvation through destruction", I think Bioware explained that perfectly and in the only way I personally would have found satisfying.
The lack of choice and the lack of YOUR choices making a difference.
Ok, this one the outrage makes sense on. I'm annoyed all my choices didn't have some grand effect but at the same time I like what they did in a sort of meta-joke kind of way. The final scene of the old man reinforces something which became obvious once ME2 shipped. Our choices were meaningless in the grander scale of things. What we did had the same effect on the story as what colour our armour was. The story was always going to be set in stone (after all the framing device turned out to be that it was an old man telling it to a child, the finer details were always going to be changeable), our 'free-will' only existed in terms of the finer points of the plot. I can accept that and it doesn't bother me. Anyone who hadn't figured out by mid-way through ME3 that your choices were meaningless was deluding themselves. Can someone explain to me one instance of the Collector base changing something? Or how about the fact that regardless of who you put on the council at the end of ME1, Udina had to be there in 3 because it was part of the fixed story. How he got there may differ from person to person but he was always going to get there, the Illusive Man would always have enough salvage tech to get indoctrinated and Sheperd was always going to self-sacrifice.
Because that's the thing, free-will IS an illusion. The Catalyst was viewing organic and synthetic life on a galactic scale, that probably equates to the way we view cells and atoms; from that far removed a scale it's all predictable. That's what the finale reflected; as humans we perceive that we have free-will but a god-like entity viewing things on level we cannot comprehend would view us the way we view things on a macro-level. It's pretty much the Bioshock twist on a grander scale and delivered with less grace. But I can see why people are annoyed that BioWare made this philosophical point by pretending the player had free-will for three games only to say "see, now you get it, it was an illusion all along!". The story was always set in stone, we only had say in the plot (and yes they are two very different things, ask any film student).
The ambiguity as to the fate of the galaxy/the inferred bleakness.
Ok I like ambiguity and I hate happy endings so again, this I liked. I also LOVE depressing twists. So the idea that our tiny conflict brought all the races together and to earth for a final showdown only for all life to be wiped out by an even bigger, unseen inevitability; I really like that. Sorry, I'm a fatalist and that notion is simply great. Plus I picked the synthesis ending so the idea that current life has reached its peak and it's time to create a new species by wiping out the old one is also something I can get behind. (To any TR fans out there, yeah that means I think Natla was in the right. Wesker too but he was a (wonderful, loveable) idiot about it.)
Plus, did the implausible optimistic arc not bug anyone else? That after thousands of years of conflict, in a few hours our mighty hero managed to create universal, galactic-wide peace between all the major races? That was just laughably cheerful and was really starting to bug me so the "EVERYONE DIES!" end felt quite satisfying for me.
However...
That nonsense with the Normandy is just plain wrong. It doesn't make any sense. That should be fixed or at least explained why they were running (maybe Shepard them to go). Unless the Indoctrination Theory turns out to be true (which I wouldn't mind as it's fiendishly clever and quite interesting. And makes an alarming amount of sense.)
As to the claim that us 'likers' don't give reasons? Ok here you go:
The very end and the explanation.
I loved it. I generally find any narrative closure unsatisfying unless it's one of two things; left ambiguous or cyclical. The explanation for the Reapers was wonderful. The inevitable conflict between organic and synthetic being stopped by synthetics destroying organics and preserving as synthetic records of themselves is...beautiful. It's so precise and exact like clockwork. What would you have preferred, the Reapers were just like the Geth but got out of hand and started killing everyone? Yawn, boring, unimaginative. THAT would have killed the franchise for me. Every Reaper since ME1 has been saying how they're our "salvation through destruction", I think Bioware explained that perfectly and in the only way I personally would have found satisfying.
The lack of choice and the lack of YOUR choices making a difference.
Ok, this one the outrage makes sense on. I'm annoyed all my choices didn't have some grand effect but at the same time I like what they did in a sort of meta-joke kind of way. The final scene of the old man reinforces something which became obvious once ME2 shipped. Our choices were meaningless in the grander scale of things. What we did had the same effect on the story as what colour our armour was. The story was always going to be set in stone (after all the framing device turned out to be that it was an old man telling it to a child, the finer details were always going to be changeable), our 'free-will' only existed in terms of the finer points of the plot. I can accept that and it doesn't bother me. Anyone who hadn't figured out by mid-way through ME3 that your choices were meaningless was deluding themselves. Can someone explain to me one instance of the Collector base changing something? Or how about the fact that regardless of who you put on the council at the end of ME1, Udina had to be there in 3 because it was part of the fixed story. How he got there may differ from person to person but he was always going to get there, the Illusive Man would always have enough salvage tech to get indoctrinated and Sheperd was always going to self-sacrifice.
Because that's the thing, free-will IS an illusion. The Catalyst was viewing organic and synthetic life on a galactic scale, that probably equates to the way we view cells and atoms; from that far removed a scale it's all predictable. That's what the finale reflected; as humans we perceive that we have free-will but a god-like entity viewing things on level we cannot comprehend would view us the way we view things on a macro-level. It's pretty much the Bioshock twist on a grander scale and delivered with less grace. But I can see why people are annoyed that BioWare made this philosophical point by pretending the player had free-will for three games only to say "see, now you get it, it was an illusion all along!". The story was always set in stone, we only had say in the plot (and yes they are two very different things, ask any film student).
The ambiguity as to the fate of the galaxy/the inferred bleakness.
Ok I like ambiguity and I hate happy endings so again, this I liked. I also LOVE depressing twists. So the idea that our tiny conflict brought all the races together and to earth for a final showdown only for all life to be wiped out by an even bigger, unseen inevitability; I really like that. Sorry, I'm a fatalist and that notion is simply great. Plus I picked the synthesis ending so the idea that current life has reached its peak and it's time to create a new species by wiping out the old one is also something I can get behind. (To any TR fans out there, yeah that means I think Natla was in the right. Wesker too but he was a (wonderful, loveable) idiot about it.)
Plus, did the implausible optimistic arc not bug anyone else? That after thousands of years of conflict, in a few hours our mighty hero managed to create universal, galactic-wide peace between all the major races? That was just laughably cheerful and was really starting to bug me so the "EVERYONE DIES!" end felt quite satisfying for me.
However...
That nonsense with the Normandy is just plain wrong. It doesn't make any sense. That should be fixed or at least explained why they were running (maybe Shepard them to go). Unless the Indoctrination Theory turns out to be true (which I wouldn't mind as it's fiendishly clever and quite interesting. And makes an alarming amount of sense.)
Well, he could be using FTL within the solar system. To do what... I have no idea.Wakikifudge said:
Which is one point we agree on - the whole Joker scene makes no sense at all.
I feel like there was some other "scene" missing that explained how the squad member got back to the ship and where the fuck Joker is going. Because without that "missing" scene, nothing with Joker or the squad member make any sense.
However, I don't automatically assume that Joker is fleeing. Since nothing at all about the scene makes sense, there isn't enough context to know what the fuck Joker is doing. Nothing about that part makes any sense.
Honestly, I didn't mind the ending either.
I just want closure. Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED??
Are the Geth dead? What about my team? What about Earth, and Thessia and Palaven? What the fuck happened??
I not happy with the ending because I don't know what has happened to everyone. I want to know if I have saved everyone, or basically fucked everyone over by picking the "Destroy the Reapers" option.
I just want closure. Seriously, WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED??
Are the Geth dead? What about my team? What about Earth, and Thessia and Palaven? What the fuck happened??
I not happy with the ending because I don't know what has happened to everyone. I want to know if I have saved everyone, or basically fucked everyone over by picking the "Destroy the Reapers" option.
You chose the Destroy option?iLazy said:
Then yes the Reapers are dead, as are all synthetic beings. This includes all Geth, EDI, and you.
The rest of your team? Up in the air. Some survive the battle, some don't.
Earth, Thessia, & Palaven? Decades of rebuilding.
I liked it, it stripped away any power that I had and left me only with the power of justification. Just because I got synthetics and organics to temporarily work together doesn't mean that it sets a universal precedent. Synthetics will rise again and try to kill organics no matter what I do.
Basically, most games revolve around the player's asshole, with your actions and personal morality being the ultimate authority on EVERYTHING. The whole world feels like a lump of clay that I can simply mold into my own image, instead of being a well-rounded world with characters who have their own dreams and ideas. The ending pretty much just put its foot down and said "No", I was not about to dictate the workings of the universe.
The ending left me asking questions, such as whether I did the right thing and what repercussion there would be for what I had done.
Basically, most games revolve around the player's asshole, with your actions and personal morality being the ultimate authority on EVERYTHING. The whole world feels like a lump of clay that I can simply mold into my own image, instead of being a well-rounded world with characters who have their own dreams and ideas. The ending pretty much just put its foot down and said "No", I was not about to dictate the workings of the universe.
The ending left me asking questions, such as whether I did the right thing and what repercussion there would be for what I had done.
my guess?Zhukov said:
not as invested as other players.
its not hard to not care about the inconsistency's and short comings and just go with it if you didn't really care to begin with. i actually have one friend that plays it, that beat it expecting to die anyway, so she was also ok with the ending.
though, dunno what the other two thought, and i think the one is just playing it for multi-player anyway ....
I strongly disagree.
In the end, your choices throughout the games have no impact on the endings. It's the definition of a shitty "multiple choice" ending--you're put in a room with option A, B, and C, and have to pick one of them. Nothing else has any impact.
I see the Control ending as the "bad" ending because a very important recurring theme in the series is that you cannot control the reapers and any attempt to do so is doomed to failure. Everything in the canon suggests that the Control ending will ultimately result in Shepard being controlled by the reapers, and not the other way around. It doesn't make any sense to me that it's the "blue/paragon" ending, because it's the exact same thing the Illusive Man has been trying to do.
The Synthesis ending is downright idiotic, because it comes out of nowhere with no explanation. It leaps headfirst into a hackneyed transhumanism theme that has until now been almost entirely absent from the series, and doesn't even offer the vaguest explanation as to how the magical instantaneous fusion of organic and synthetic life might take place, leaving the conclusion through deduction that it must simply be magic--which is out of place in an otherwise rather "hard" sci-fi series.
The Destroy ending seems to me to be the "good" ending, since it's the only one in which you actually stick to your mission as stated from game 1. However, the fact that you have to destroy all synthetic life in order to do so is directly conflicting with the game's previous messages about organic/synthetic cooperation, and renders the ability to make peace between the Quarians and Geth completely meaningless.
Of course, all the endings fail to explain how your squadmates magically teleport to the Normandy, and why the Normandy was obviously already fleeing the battle before the explosion. I also hate the fact that you are forced to play multiplayer in order to have Shepard survive (if you're going to dispute this, give me some proof that 8,000 military strength is obtainable).
EDIT: Also, the relay explosions. It's been established that the explosion from destroying a relay is enough to wipe out the entire solar system it's in. So it's implied that every system with a Mass Relay is totally destroyed, giving us not a bittersweet ending, but a Pyrrhic victory in which every major race in the galaxy is nearly wiped out.
In the end, your choices throughout the games have no impact on the endings. It's the definition of a shitty "multiple choice" ending--you're put in a room with option A, B, and C, and have to pick one of them. Nothing else has any impact.
I see the Control ending as the "bad" ending because a very important recurring theme in the series is that you cannot control the reapers and any attempt to do so is doomed to failure. Everything in the canon suggests that the Control ending will ultimately result in Shepard being controlled by the reapers, and not the other way around. It doesn't make any sense to me that it's the "blue/paragon" ending, because it's the exact same thing the Illusive Man has been trying to do.
The Synthesis ending is downright idiotic, because it comes out of nowhere with no explanation. It leaps headfirst into a hackneyed transhumanism theme that has until now been almost entirely absent from the series, and doesn't even offer the vaguest explanation as to how the magical instantaneous fusion of organic and synthetic life might take place, leaving the conclusion through deduction that it must simply be magic--which is out of place in an otherwise rather "hard" sci-fi series.
The Destroy ending seems to me to be the "good" ending, since it's the only one in which you actually stick to your mission as stated from game 1. However, the fact that you have to destroy all synthetic life in order to do so is directly conflicting with the game's previous messages about organic/synthetic cooperation, and renders the ability to make peace between the Quarians and Geth completely meaningless.
Of course, all the endings fail to explain how your squadmates magically teleport to the Normandy, and why the Normandy was obviously already fleeing the battle before the explosion. I also hate the fact that you are forced to play multiplayer in order to have Shepard survive (if you're going to dispute this, give me some proof that 8,000 military strength is obtainable).
EDIT: Also, the relay explosions. It's been established that the explosion from destroying a relay is enough to wipe out the entire solar system it's in. So it's implied that every system with a Mass Relay is totally destroyed, giving us not a bittersweet ending, but a Pyrrhic victory in which every major race in the galaxy is nearly wiped out.
You know, I don't care if people liked the ending as long as they don't insult the intelligence of people who dislike it. If you say that I 'don't get it' and you explain your take and I understand what you're saying but still think it sucks donkey balls, then back off. Christ.
Can someone explain something to me?
Do all the relays get destroyed? Or just the primary ones? Or is it just the Reaper-made ones? What about The Conduit, you know, the two relays that link Ilos and the Citadel? For that matter, what about the Citadel itself? In the first game it's established that it's pretty much one big relay linking to another in Deep Space that the Reapers use to invade. Does that get destroyed as well? If so, wouldn't that mean Earth and everyone near it dies? Since it's so close, it blowing up would surely kill everything. If not, why not? How isn't it destroyed?
Also, what about the secondary relays? Do those explode as well? Primary relays link to just one, but can send you really far. Secondary relays can go ~300 light years to any other Secondary relay, provided you put in the right co-ordinates. This distinction is important, since it explains how both the Rachnai Wars started and why Saran needed the co-ordinates of the Mu Relay and how both can happen in the same universe. The Rachni were at the other end of a Primary relay, which can go any distance but only to one specific other relay regardless of whether or not you know where it is. Secondary relays can go ~300 light years to any other Secondary relay, provided you put in the right co-ordinates. It explains why Saren needed to know where the Mu relay was before he could get there via Mass Relay, and how the Rachni were "stumbled" upon.
Does the game even freaking remember that all these different types of relays exist?
Do all the relays get destroyed? Or just the primary ones? Or is it just the Reaper-made ones? What about The Conduit, you know, the two relays that link Ilos and the Citadel? For that matter, what about the Citadel itself? In the first game it's established that it's pretty much one big relay linking to another in Deep Space that the Reapers use to invade. Does that get destroyed as well? If so, wouldn't that mean Earth and everyone near it dies? Since it's so close, it blowing up would surely kill everything. If not, why not? How isn't it destroyed?
Also, what about the secondary relays? Do those explode as well? Primary relays link to just one, but can send you really far. Secondary relays can go ~300 light years to any other Secondary relay, provided you put in the right co-ordinates. This distinction is important, since it explains how both the Rachnai Wars started and why Saran needed the co-ordinates of the Mu Relay and how both can happen in the same universe. The Rachni were at the other end of a Primary relay, which can go any distance but only to one specific other relay regardless of whether or not you know where it is. Secondary relays can go ~300 light years to any other Secondary relay, provided you put in the right co-ordinates. It explains why Saren needed to know where the Mu relay was before he could get there via Mass Relay, and how the Rachni were "stumbled" upon.
Does the game even freaking remember that all these different types of relays exist?
Personally, I think the available endings are generally okay, but very poorly written. I do take issue with some of the supposed plot-holes though.
In particular I'm a little confused as to why people think members of your ground team seem to have teleported onto the Normandy. There is quite a long period of time between the charge on Harbinger and Shepherd's final colour-calibrated choice at the Crucible. I don't really see why it's unnacceptable that Cortez (or anyone else) couldn't have picked up your ground team and got them back to the Normandy in that time. It certainly needs to be explained, as does their survival, but it doesn't seem like a necessary plot-hole to me.
Also, neither does Joker's faster-than-light escape from the Citadel explosion. It certainly doesn't look like he's in a Mass Effect jump, and the explosion that overtakes the ship doesn't look like one of the beams that are being projected by the relays. It really does seem like he's just trying to outrun the initial Citadel explosion near Earth. The planet that they crash on is clearly not Earth, but is most likely within faster-than-light distance of Earth.
Personally, I believe the ending needs more explanation than changes. I think certain things were assumed by the design team that are not at all obvious to the player. If there is one big change that needs to be in place though, it is the option to tell the Citadel AI to go fuck himself - that none of those choices is a valid option - and radio in to the Normandy to spend your last few moments with your crew and attempt to battle the Reapers using "conventional means". I know a number of players that would have been much happier sacrificing their Shepherd's life for an ideal that they actually believed in.
TLDR: The ending needs more options to accomodate the different personas of Shepherd that people have created. Some people like the ending because the options available fit with their version of Shepherd. There are plot-holes that need explaining.
In particular I'm a little confused as to why people think members of your ground team seem to have teleported onto the Normandy. There is quite a long period of time between the charge on Harbinger and Shepherd's final colour-calibrated choice at the Crucible. I don't really see why it's unnacceptable that Cortez (or anyone else) couldn't have picked up your ground team and got them back to the Normandy in that time. It certainly needs to be explained, as does their survival, but it doesn't seem like a necessary plot-hole to me.
Also, neither does Joker's faster-than-light escape from the Citadel explosion. It certainly doesn't look like he's in a Mass Effect jump, and the explosion that overtakes the ship doesn't look like one of the beams that are being projected by the relays. It really does seem like he's just trying to outrun the initial Citadel explosion near Earth. The planet that they crash on is clearly not Earth, but is most likely within faster-than-light distance of Earth.
Personally, I believe the ending needs more explanation than changes. I think certain things were assumed by the design team that are not at all obvious to the player. If there is one big change that needs to be in place though, it is the option to tell the Citadel AI to go fuck himself - that none of those choices is a valid option - and radio in to the Normandy to spend your last few moments with your crew and attempt to battle the Reapers using "conventional means". I know a number of players that would have been much happier sacrificing their Shepherd's life for an ideal that they actually believed in.
TLDR: The ending needs more options to accomodate the different personas of Shepherd that people have created. Some people like the ending because the options available fit with their version of Shepherd. There are plot-holes that need explaining.
