I miss the old RPG style.

[veloper]

Sorry, but Bloodlines is definitely NOT old RPG style.

VTMB is a roleplaying shooter/action RPG.
The writing and voice-acting was good and you could pick your dialogue lines, but quality aside, this stuff has never gone away. See Deus Ex and Mass Effect.

 

[Zhukov]

Eh, can't say I miss 'em overmuch.

I don't know why exactly, but I cannot think of a single memorable character, bit of dialogue or story in an old RPG. Well, okay Planescape: Torment was good, at least on a conceptual level. But aside from that, nada.

People talk about the complex gameplay and whatnot, but to me it never amounted to more than making a list of numbers get bigger and hoping the dice rolled my way. I prefer a style of gameplay that gives me the sense of immediacy that comes from directly controlling my character. Beats letting the calculator have all the fun.

 

[Eamar]

I like "old school" RPGs too. I also like plenty of modern ones, and I think that the modern way is often (not always) more suited to video games as a medium.

I maintain that the best RPGs are good, old-fashioned tabletop games. If you want the "real" RPG experience, play a bit of D&D or, particularly if you enjoyed Bloodlines, World of Darkness. They have the added bonus of being fantastically good fun with a group of friends

 

[Kahunaburger]

I do not wear glasses, and stay away from the distorting nostalgia goggles too.

Instead, I like changes, improvements, new ideas and streamlining in places where it fits. I'm not saying older RPG's were nor are bad, but I'm just not jumping into this nostalgic train. Those that tend to have hints of elitism around here and there.

I'll have you know we have more than just hints of elitism!

OT: I agree and with OP to an extent, but not 100%. There's this old NYT article about Planescape: Torment (that I sadly can't link from my phone) that talks about how much of a game-changer Planescape was going to be from the perspective of game writing quality and the incorporation of writing into core game design. Fast forward a decade, and it appears that many mainstream RPG devs are releasing progressively prettier and shallower versions of whet they had out at the time.

But I don't think it's all doom and gloom. Human Revolution, Witcher 2, New Vegas, and Bastion (for instance) are legitimately well-written games, and the roguelike genre is stronger than ever, holding up the gameplay end. Plus, Wasteland 2!

 

[newdarkcloud]

Funny you should say that. I just started playing the original Fallout after getting it from GoG. I must say, I've been having a blast so far. Going through as a Small Guns/Stealth character has been fun. I love nicking everyone's stuff.

 

[Geo Da Sponge]

Actually some of the best character skill systems I've seen are in Vampire: The Msquerade - Bloodlines and Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obsucra. Arcanum in particular, what they have in common is that when you level up/get experience it's given to you purely in the form of points to spend on abilities, which are all clearly spelled out from the start so you know what you're building.

To further explain, I really liked the system used in Arcanum because the levelling mechanic worked on a very simple system which still allowed you to build a huge variety of very interesting characters. The way it worked was that when you levelled up, you got a point to spend on something. Anything. High level skills weren't inherently more expensive than low level skills, but were kept balance by the fact that they required a higher stat in order to be able to get them. These stats were built up through the same system...

Look, to be honest I can't properly explain it properly anyway, I just liked the fact that every possible skill or ability was presented as an equally valid choice and that you could plan out a character build without having to worry too much about putting a couple of skill points into other areas[footnote]Sadly the game never really delivered in the combat area which made part of your character build less important, but it was still a great system.[/footnote]. Compare this to D&D, for example (I refer to 3.5 edition, just because it's all I know). When you were playing that, after you'd made a character and picked out their race, class, abilities, skills and feats at 1st level they were pretty much set upon a single path with no significant changes along the way.

 

[Ratboy1337]

I agree with you on this, although there is one RPG in recent years that I have thoroughly enjoyed. I think Dragon Age: Origins is an amazing RPG, and I would highly recommend it if you haven't played it. The gameplay is a little clunky, and the graphics aren't so pretty, but the character development and the the story are, honestly, the best I have ever seen. In my opinion, Dragon Age: Origins is definitely how an rpg should be done. But that's just me

 

[somonels]

I approve the list, I agree with most things, except kotor3, you know how all things Lucas is.
I propose we re-topic this thread to "Old-Timers" where we complain about 'modern' games, tell dirty jokes, reminisce about the good days and watch Matt Chat.
While I do not like his reviews I feel this is topical: Tim Schafer / Ron Gilbert on adventure games:

 

[Cranky]

Damn, all the games you listed brought a me a nostalgic tear. I remember vividly playing KOTOR late into the nights, numerous, numerous playthroughs.

The only modern "RPGs" I can say I do enjoy are Fallout 3 and ME1 and ME2.

ME1 was more a traditional RPG than a modern one, but FO3 and ME2 are pretty blatant shooters. Still sucked me in though.

 

[Thatrocketeer]

Eh, I'd rather not have such things. Most, if not all, of the games you picked are regarded as the best/most popular games of their kind. They get to be that because most of the other games in that time are usually plain shit.

If you can give me at least 15 games that aren't mainstream that use the old RPG style and are actually GOOD in my view, then I might change my mind, until then, I prefer the streamlined yet enjoyable RPGs that we have today.

Plus, Morrowind just plain sucks gameplay wise.

 

[Kahunaburger]

If you can give me at least 15 games that aren't mainstream that use the old RPG style and are actually GOOD in my view, then I might change my mind, until then, I prefer the streamlined yet enjoyable RPGs that we have today.

Grab the top 15 that fit your definition of "RPG" from this list [http://roguelikechallenge.appspot.com/]. And that's just old-school roguelike RPGs that were made in a 7-day period during a particular week in 2012. If you broaden your search, you'll find even more.

Plus, Morrowind just plain sucks gameplay wise.

Well, sure, it's an Elder Scrolls game.

 

[BreakfastMan]

It is like saying "there is no good heavy metal anymore" when you just listen to rap and R&B. Of course you cannot find any good heavy metal anymore. You are not actively looking for it.

Of course, that's still a shift. It used to be you didn't have to look for these games.

True. But the market shifts all the time. That is what it does.

But, to say these type of games are not getting released anymore is silly, because they still are. I mean, the fact that Piranha Bytes, CD Projekt, Obsidian, and Larian Studios are all still in business and still making games should be proof of that. :/

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

Yea, that's why they never had action gameplay in real time back then. Oh wait, they did.

Not the extend you are talking about. We didn't have the calculating power to simulate the AI of 5 darkspawn at the same time while calculated the dmg according to their set place and power.

Yeah we had action games. Just nowhere near what you are suggesting.

Uh... unless your definition of "old RPG" excludes Fallout, real-time gameplay wasn't a problem when that generation of CRPGs was being made.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

While I don't want to get into the debate on old RPGs versus new RPGs, the styles of games you describe still exist and are still getting released. I mean, if people are willing to buy them, they are getting made. You might have to do a bit of digging to find them, and they might no longer be the poster-boys for the RPG genre, but they are out there. There have been a number released in the past couple years. Hell, I alt-tabbed out of one the games just now to write this (EDIT: Divinity 2, if you want to know). Seek, and you will find, my friend.

It is like saying "there is no good heavy metal anymore" when you just listen to rap and R&B. Of course you cannot find any good heavy metal anymore. You are not actively looking for it.

Do you have any recommendations then? For me, Shadowrun Returns in the great white hope. I can't wait for that game.

I am totally in agreement with the OP. And I get sick of people making apologies for modern RPGs that strip away complexity and depth in the name of "accessibility". I would add that, for me anyway, the single most important thing for an RPG to do is give the player control over the type of character they want to create. This means lots of options for skills, abilities, weapons, armour and cosmetic and aesthetic things. Bioware have been getting this wrong for a while now. Even The Elder Scrolls is going backwards in this respect - Skyrim had fewer skills and weapons than Oblivion, which had fewer skills and weapons than Morrowind. It does make me sad.

So yeah, any recommendations of modern RPGs that understand what makes a good RPG would be very welcome!

 

[Hides His Eyes]

I do not wear glasses, and stay away from the distorting nostalgia goggles too.

Instead, I like changes, improvements, new ideas and streamlining in places where it fits. I'm not saying older RPG's were nor are bad, but I'm just not jumping into this nostalgic train. Those that tend to have hints of elitism around here and there.

In most circumstances I would agree with you, but this really isn't nostalgia. We are people who genuinely prefer a game to be deep and complex like Bioware's old D&D-based games. I guess my point is that, for many of us, the "streamlining" we are seeing in so many modern mainstream RPGs... well, frankly it DOESN'T fit.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

I agree. But real-time is not inherently superior, and I think it's time developers realised that. Turn-based just fits better in some types of game. Kind of like colour film. It was a great technological advance and thank god for it - but some films are still made in black and white because they are better in black and white.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Well one of the problems is that when we got better processing power we became able to do things real time.

Yea, that's why they never had action gameplay in real time back then. Oh wait, they did.

Not the extend you are talking about. We didn't have the calculating power to simulate the AI of 5 darkspawn at the same time while calculated the dmg according to their set place and power.

Yeah we had action games. Just nowhere near what you are suggesting.

Uh... unless your definition of "old RPG" excludes Fallout, real-time gameplay wasn't a problem when that generation of CRPGs was being made.

My definition of action RPG excludes fallout....

I dont find that to be so strange.

See bolded text. When Fallout came out, they had been making ARPGs for about a decade.

The WoW mode of combat was a result of limitations and resulting design decisions. So was a lot of your old combat.

And? Chess and Go had design decisions based on technological limitations, and they have yet to be surpassed as multiplayer games.

 

[BreakfastMan]

While I don't want to get into the debate on old RPGs versus new RPGs, the styles of games you describe still exist and are still getting released. I mean, if people are willing to buy them, they are getting made. You might have to do a bit of digging to find them, and they might no longer be the poster-boys for the RPG genre, but they are out there. There have been a number released in the past couple years. Hell, I alt-tabbed out of one the games just now to write this (EDIT: Divinity 2, if you want to know). Seek, and you will find, my friend.

It is like saying "there is no good heavy metal anymore" when you just listen to rap and R&B. Of course you cannot find any good heavy metal anymore. You are not actively looking for it.

Do you have any recommendations then? For me, Shadowrun Returns in the great white hope. I can't wait for that game.

I am totally in agreement with the OP. And I get sick of people making apologies for modern RPGs that strip away complexity and depth in the name of "accessibility". I would add that, for me anyway, the single most important thing for an RPG to do is give the player control over the type of character they want to create. This means lots of options for skills, abilities, weapons, armour and cosmetic and aesthetic things. Bioware have been getting this wrong for a while now. Even The Elder Scrolls is going backwards in this respect - Skyrim had fewer skills and weapons than Oblivion, which had fewer skills and weapons than Morrowind. It does make me sad.

So yeah, any recommendations of modern RPGs that understand what makes a good RPG would be very welcome!

Take a look at the aforementioned Divinity 2. Bloody loads of customization there. Little on the cosmetic side, but it more than makes up for it everywhere else. The new Fallout games (especially NV), do this very well. Alpha protocol, while lacking in cosmetics, has a lot of this. Deus Ex: HR has a lot of that too, but no real cosmetic stuff. Check out EYE: Divine Cybermancy, which is really unique and offers you a lot of different play styles. The Mount & Blade gamers provide a more historical, grand strategy view of this while keeping the RPG elements relatively intact. Neverwinter Nights 2 contains customization up the arse, so check that one out. I have also good things about the Risen games and Two Worlds II, so they should be worth a look.

 

[Hides His Eyes]

I just started playing vampires the masquerade bloodlines (on the advice of someone here actually). Extremely difficult game to get into (poor graphics, clunky combat, EXTREMELY complicated skill system)but the dialogue and the intricate skill system (once you figure the damn thing out) eventually sucked me into it. take my advice: If you like RPGs and can stick with a difficult to get into one for a bit, play this game. As I was playing it last night, I realized I was more immersed in this game than I had been in any game for a long time. It is not without faults: bugs, spending 30 minutes trying to find some godamn building that is hidden in the most unintuitive alleyway imaginable, and losing progress makes you want to rip your face off. But I'm enjoying it more than any other game I've played in a long time.

The only RPGs I enjoyed this much were
Baldur's Gate I & II (my introduction to RPGS)
Fallout 2
fallout
KOTOR I & II
Planescape Torment
Assorted Final Fantasy Games
a bunch of JRPGs that I don't want to list because it would take forever. the point is I like SNES and PS JRPGs.
Morrowind (sort of. I still have nightmares of trying to find stuff in Morrowind through obtuse directions)
and probably a bunch of others I'm not thinking of right now.

The point is: modern RPGs have lost their way. What makes these games so much fun is a mixture of the compelling world, humor, great dialogue, memorable characters, massive number of skills and abilities that are fun to use, and the massive variety of ways you can solve problems.

Modern RPGs have lost this. I can't think of a single RPG that was released in the last 3 years or so that I enjoyed as much as I enjoy these older ones. Even through the crappy graphics, the poor combat, and the bugs I still find myself enjoying the older ones more.

Why do studios insist on making Action games with RPG elements and calling them RPGs when they have relatively linear storylines, crappy dialogue, and easily forgettable characters?
Why can we not have a REAL godamned sequal to KOTOR II? good combat is fine. in fact, good combat is awesome, but it shouldn't be the focus of an RPG. it should be there to drive the plot, force character development, and also an option that must be there just to be awesome.
I am sad. I really want more of these games. No other genre sucks me in like a good RPG.

As I said, I totally agree. Did you play Neverwinter Nights? In my opinion the best RPG ever, and the best game ever. The level editor and resulting online community gave it massive replay value too. Shadowrun Returns seems set to do a similar thing, so I'd look out for that as well, especially if you think J.R.R. Tolkien and William Gibson writing a book together would be awesome

 

[Hides His Eyes]

While I don't want to get into the debate on old RPGs versus new RPGs, the styles of games you describe still exist and are still getting released. I mean, if people are willing to buy them, they are getting made. You might have to do a bit of digging to find them, and they might no longer be the poster-boys for the RPG genre, but they are out there. There have been a number released in the past couple years. Hell, I alt-tabbed out of one the games just now to write this (EDIT: Divinity 2, if you want to know). Seek, and you will find, my friend.

It is like saying "there is no good heavy metal anymore" when you just listen to rap and R&B. Of course you cannot find any good heavy metal anymore. You are not actively looking for it.

Do you have any recommendations then? For me, Shadowrun Returns in the great white hope. I can't wait for that game.

I am totally in agreement with the OP. And I get sick of people making apologies for modern RPGs that strip away complexity and depth in the name of "accessibility". I would add that, for me anyway, the single most important thing for an RPG to do is give the player control over the type of character they want to create. This means lots of options for skills, abilities, weapons, armour and cosmetic and aesthetic things. Bioware have been getting this wrong for a while now. Even The Elder Scrolls is going backwards in this respect - Skyrim had fewer skills and weapons than Oblivion, which had fewer skills and weapons than Morrowind. It does make me sad.

So yeah, any recommendations of modern RPGs that understand what makes a good RPG would be very welcome!

Take a look at the aforementioned Divinity 2. Bloody loads of customization there. Little on the cosmetic side, but it more than makes up for it everywhere else. The new Fallout games (especially NV), do this very well. Alpha protocol, while lacking in cosmetics, has a lot of this. Deus Ex: HR has a lot of that too, but no real cosmetic stuff. Check out EYE: Divine Cybermancy, which is really unique and offers you a lot of different play styles. The Mount & Blade gamers provide a more historical, grand strategy view of this while keeping the RPG elements relatively intact. Neverwinter Nights 2 contains customization up the arse, so check that one out. I have also good things about the Risen games and Two Worlds II, so they should be worth a look.

Thanks I will check out the ones I haven't tried already. NWN2 I found rather disappointing after the first one, gameplay-wise, though I can't argue about the customisation. And I'll point you, as well as the OP, in the direction of the forthcoming Shadowrun Kickstarter game, which has raised about four and a half times its target from people eager to play it - proving there is still a serious market for such games.