I need help understanding UPDATED

[TheRundownRabbit]

Heya guys, been awhile!
I just wanna cut to the chase and say I've been very confused in recent years...this is pertaining to the way female characters are portrayed in video games or more so how people feel about it. Why are people so pissed off!? I mean, why do people care how...QUIET FROM MGSV, that's one, why does it matter that she wears almost nothing? She's a fake character and if its because of this whole 'female portrayal' thing, I've never treated nor known any women who were treated differently because of how a female character was portrayed in a video game. I'm just gonna pause to let ya'll know that this isn't a rant, I really REALLY don't understand. I read the new Critical Miss comic, the Excuse-O-Rama one, and I'm thinking why did these guys need to make excuses in the first place? It's their creative property, they can put whatever the hell they want in their games and if I don't like it, I don't buy it. It feels to me that this whole...whatever it is that's going on, is just a cheapened form of censorship. Again, not a rant, just confusion.

SO! Call me a whatever, call me a cyst...blue eyes white...dragon or whatever the kids are saying these days just help me understand! HELP ME!

WOOHOO UPDATE:

Ok ok, I've read a lot of stuff, and a great BIG thank you to everyone whether you were on this side or that. Its great to get both sides of an argument instead of everyone being unanimous on a topic because it opens the door for more questions.

I've come around to the conclusion that this might be something where both sides have valid points and well thought out arguments, but are over-shadowed by entitled self-important people who give everyone else a bad rap. Honestly, I dont know why I picked Quiet as the example, it just seemed like the hot topic of the day, which is kind of how I feel about this now given what I've been reading. It seems this whole fiasco is just a story of the month until people get bored with it and find something else to fight about. Im still looking to learn more, though Im not looking to getting directly involved.

 

[Lufia Erim]

Don't bother. It's really not that important. If you want to keep your sanity, ignore the crazies.

Games are apparently for kids so i women wear anything other than a turtleneck sweater and snowpants. People go up in arms.

We should start designing characters as androgynous blocks.

 

[Gray-Philosophy]

For myself, it's the same reason I care about realism or how consistent the in-game universe is. While I don't happen to play MGSV myself, and don't really bother with the whole debate about Quiet in particular, I can see why some people would get their knickers in a twist about it.

I play games for story just as much as I do for interactive action-packed entertainment. If the story sucks or is otherwise unfulfilling, it takes away from the experience. I think the problem in the case of Quiet is that there is no particular reason for her to wear a string bikini even despite the whole

Spoiler: spoiler?

photosynthesis "drinks through her skin"

thing. And for me, it's that. The reasoning behind character portrayal is a part of the consistency of the in-game universe, from which the story is made, or portrayed. Sure, if a (pardon) "slutty" looking character is supposed to look the part because she happens to be a massive floozy. I don't mind at all. As long as it fits with the rest of the story. In that regard it'd be hilarious to see a character like that with other characters acting flustered and looking away in embarrasment.

For other games or genres, it's always been a bit of a pet peeve for me when females in fantasy settings are given chain bikinis or inappropriate looking armour. Not that it's unpleasant to look at, certainly not, but it just makes no f%#@ing sense unless it's supposed to be a ceremonial garb or something. What would make sense is, if there was a female barbarian going all conan-mode in nothing but a loincloth and a leather strap to contain her jiggly bits. But metal armour that doesn't actually offer protection? c'mon..

TL;DR:
I don't mind how characters are portrayed as long as it makes sense. If they're inappropriately portrayed just for the hell of it, it ruins my prescious immurshun!

you blue eyed white dragon cyst

 

[shrekfan246]

I've never treated nor known any women who were treated differently because of how a female character was portrayed in a video game.

You must not know many women, then.

Not to be dismissive, and sure, in the most technical sense people probably don't specifically get treated differently because of specific characters in specific games. But cultural perception is most definitely impacted by the way things like film, television, and video games portray their characters. "Middle-aged white man" hasn't been the 'default' for nearly everything made in North America in the last 100+ years by an accident.

Like, for serious, ask practically any woman you know how much they've had to deal with sexist harassment in their lives. For specific gaming examples, find women who play games online; most of the people I've met admit that they will rarely ever even use any sort of voice chat, because they're just so sick and tired of automatically getting gendered harassment and insults and sexual advances. Unless they're supremely naive or oblivious or have absorbed sexist attitudes and ideas themselves from decades of seeing media that portrays women as objects to be owned and controlled or fought over and won or rescued for the promise of rewards by men, they're going to have horror stories for you.

And hey, the same sort of thing happens to men. Notice, however, that when it does it's usually at the expense of gay men, or it otherwise denies a man the notion of his "masculinity". Insults aimed at men usually involve feminizing them, as if being a woman would be the worst possible thing to happen to a man. And when society views women as little more than trophies to be collected and defended, it's not hard to understand why such things might be taken as the insults they're intended to be. Games which put women into scantily-clad costumes for no reason or then try to limply make up an excuse for it may not be too harmful when taken in a vacuum, but they contribute to an overall culture that views women as being "lesser" than men. That doesn't mean we can't have them anymore, but we should at least be able to examine why they're being made and discuss how it's harmful and can be improved without having the screeching armies descending out of fear of having one pair of virtual tits maybe not hanging out in the wind.

 

[1981]

I've never treated nor known any women who were treated differently because of how a female character was portrayed in a video game.

Every time we were taught media literacy in elementary school, there was that one dummy young and naive person who went "Pfft! I'm not going to start smoking just because I see an ad for Marlboro!"

Everything around us affects us. Even those who know when they're being manipulated and make a conscious effort to resist it are shaped by it to some degree. Those who lack that insight can be made to do, say and think almost anything.

I mean, why do people care how...QUIET FROM MGSV, that's one, why does it matter that she wears almost nothing?

People point it out for the same reason they point out other weaknesses like plot holes: to improve future work, raise standards, guide consumers etc. I'm sure there are creators who would prefer a mindless audience, but allowing them to continue producing mediocre work is not doing anyone any favors.

It's their creative property, they can put whatever the hell they want in their games and if I don't like it, I don't buy it.

We're the audience, we can criticize their work. If it wasn't for reviews and recommendations, how would we know what to buy and what not to buy?

 

[happyninja42]

As I understand it, the majority of people are annoyed for the following reasons.

1. It's further sexual objectification of women, when there isn't any real reason for it, and you don't see any of the other characters so blatantly sexualized. And considering some of the poses she adopts when you are flying in the chopper, that are obviously designed to just show off her body to the camera, it's pretty obvious it was done on purpose as fan service. Which frankly annoys a lot of people. If Snake was also running around in a thong and nipple tassels, then at least the objectification would be across the board. But he's not, he's wearing sensible clothing for the job, and she's running around dressed like a stripper.

2. The creator gave a real bullshit, idiotic reason for why she has to dress like that, and was quoted as saying "Once you learn why she's like that, you will feel shame for your criticisms".

Well most people, who have now played the game, are calling bullshit on that, as it's such a stupid excuse to just show a woman in a bikini running around shooting stuff. People probably wouldn't be nearly as pissed if he had just said "I like showing off hot women in little clothing." At least it would be honest.

 

[Leg End]

THE CONCEPT OF LOVE? Couldn't resist.

It's because people are fucknuts and have to ***** about something. That's really it. The same people who have become the "TOTALLY FREE LOVE EXPRESHUN AND STUFF" types have also become puritans, whether they'll admit it or not.

Just say you sexually identify as a Sega Neptune and you'll be fine.

 

[stroopwafel]

It's a generation difference. Kojima is from an age in which a scantily clad lady didn't scream ''pro-rape culture sexist bigot'' like many adolescents and their crept-in white male guilt complex. Before the politically correct thought police it was just that: a scantily clad lady. Creative expression doesn't have to adhere to pro-feminist beliefs of post-menopausal women who try to dictate their particular worldview through subversive media rants and if a creator wants to star a leading role of a badass who knows what pussy tastes like in their work it doesn't make it 'sexist' simply for refusing to adhere to that particular set of beliefs. Neither is putting sexy ladies in games and movies for no reason at all. Freedom of expression and all that.

Like, for serious, ask practically any woman you know how much they've had to deal with sexist harassment in their lives. For specific gaming examples, find women who play games online; most of the people I've met admit that they will rarely ever even use any sort of voice chat, because they're just so sick and tired of automatically getting gendered harassment and insults and sexual advances.

Gimme a break. You put one woman in a den of hormone raging teens who probably still haven't seen a 'real' tit in their life while jerking it off to Pornhub and what do you expect? If you think censoring women in videogames is going to change all that you're being ridiculously naive. Complaining about behavior of teen boys who are anonymously hiding behind their computer screens and acne lotions is like complaing about being called a ''******'' in an unmoderated internet forum.

 

[Something Amyss]

You must not know many women, then.

There's a decided lack of awareness among people if they're within a dominant or majority group. It's quite possible that women around him do get this kind of treatment and he doesn't notice.

2. The creator gave a real bullshit, idiotic reason for why she has to dress like that, and was quoted as saying "Once you learn why she's like that, you will feel shame for your criticisms".

I haven't played the game, and I haven't got any interest in playing the game, but when I heard this and found out what the real story was, I couldn't stop laughing at Kojima.

Fuck's sake, I'm someone with Onechanbara and Rumble Roses on my played games list. Hell, I don't even know why Kojima would try and pretend this wasn't about T&A.

 

[Weaver]

I can see it from both sides.

If someone's a straight female that's been playing the MGS since the PS1 days, I get it could be irritating when the camera pans to Quiet and is basically like "Yooo, check THIS out!".

On the other hand, I see it as a creators right to make whatever they want for whatever demographic they want. And what they make just might not be for you, and that's okay. I mean, I personally think the MGS story is jabbering crazy, terrible, and soap opera-esque.

However, this argument doesn't mean people wont' get upset because they may buy the game not knowing Quiet is in there.
That said, if you like most of the game but find one character's portrayal offensive I'm not sure it's worth taking up sacred arms in holy fire against Kojima.

I will say though, there's something about sexiness being part of a character and sexiness being imparted on a character. If you remove Bayonetta's sexiness you lose her character. If you lose Quiet's, how different would she really be?

 

[happyninja42]

2. The creator gave a real bullshit, idiotic reason for why she has to dress like that, and was quoted as saying "Once you learn why she's like that, you will feel shame for your criticisms".

I haven't played the game, and I haven't got any interest in playing the game, but when I heard this and found out what the real story was, I couldn't stop laughing at Kojima.

Fuck's sake, I'm someone with Onechanbara and Rumble Roses on my played games list. Hell, I don't even know why Kojima would try and pretend this wasn't about T&A.

Yeah, I haven't played it either, but I've seen footage of her gyrating in the chopper like a stripper doing a lap dance, and writhing on the ground in the rain, and the logic of "she breathes through her skin" just doesn't cut it. xD It's so blatantly fanservice. Which I'm fine with honestly, provided a few criteria are met. If he'd just been honest about it, I wouldn't have any issue. Well, I don't have much issue anyway, as I don't play the MSG series after the second one, because it's just so fucking insane that I can't enjoy it. But I do roll my eyes a bit at his attempt to justify something so blatant.

 

[Spider RedNight]

I mean, it's kind of objectivism. She (and I mean in general) isn't an engaging character because the woman in question is an engaging character. She's there because she's hot. . . . Oh and maybe she's smart or something I dunno but DAMN look at how pretty she is.

Like.... Does Lara Croft really need to run around in a skinny tank-top? No but it makes her look hella good so and people are under the impression that more males buy video games still. I just think it bothers people because it's unnecessary. It's possible to have engaging female characters (Elizabeth, Heather Mason, Cassandra) without them being completely blatant eye candy.

 

[Phasmal]

Gimme a break. You put one woman in a den of hormone raging teens who probably still haven't seen a 'real' tit in their life while jerking it off to Pornhub and what do you expect? If you think censoring women in videogames is going to change all that you're being ridiculously naive. Complaining about behavior of teen boys who are anonymously hiding behind their computer screens and acne lotions is like complaing about being called a ''******'' in an unmoderated internet forum.

Ew. See, this is why gamers have a terrible reputation. Games are growing in appeal and more and more women are playing them and `what do you expect?` when it comes to harassment is no longer the acceptable answer. People are trying to change things and hopefully the community in general will become better. I think it probably will, as someone who has been in it for a very long time, it used to be a lot worse, so I think it can get a lot better.

Also `what do you expect` type thinking just leads to women either stopping playing games or hiding themselves online which just further reinforces the dumb `gamers are all men` stereotype.

----------

Back to OP.

A lot of people are already trying to explain to you, so there's that. Games are reaching a much broader audience these days and so, there's gonna be a time when game devs have to realise that exclusively marketing themselves to teenager boys with obnoxious titty shots is just going to lose them money with people who aren't into that kind of thing. I don't think we're quite there yet, but there is a growing audience who are just kinda tired of it.
I don't have a problem with tit games being tit games. Like the beach volleyball thing, its obvious what that is there for. But when I'm trying to play a game which is apparently not a tit game and it's trying to shove tits in my face- it gets old very very fast.

 

[shrekfan246]

Like, for serious, ask practically any woman you know how much they've had to deal with sexist harassment in their lives. For specific gaming examples, find women who play games online; most of the people I've met admit that they will rarely ever even use any sort of voice chat, because they're just so sick and tired of automatically getting gendered harassment and insults and sexual advances.

Gimme a break. You put one woman in a den of hormone raging teens who probably still haven't seen a 'real' tit in their life while jerking it off to Pornhub and what do you expect? If you think censoring women in videogames is going to change all that you're being ridiculously naive. Complaining about behavior of teen boys who are anonymously hiding behind their computer screens and acne lotions is like complaing about being called a ''******'' in an unmoderated internet forum.

1) Dunno where you got "censoring women in videogames" from, especially since if you read to the end of my post you'd notice that I said there's no reason we can't have them.

2) This sort of behavior is still widely exhibited by men in their twenties, thirties, forties, and fifties, at least. Maybe not in the space of video games, but sexual harassment is incredibly widespread, and my point was not exclusive to video games. I'm so glad you snipped out the one part that allowed you to make it seem like that, though.

3) If your primary concern is that those damn SJWs (in this instance phrased as the "politically correct thought police") are going to ruin your video games, then... I'm not sure why I'm even bothering responding.

Actually, thanks for reminding me exactly why I've basically stopped posting here altogether.

EDIT: 4) Oh, and thanks as well for proving my point about the go-to insult aimed at men being derogatory toward gay men.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I think we're all aware that there are legitimate criticisms of games as a medium, and illegitimate criticisms. Don't like always online? Legitimate. Don't want baby casual losers fucking up your hardcore title with "difficulty levels"? Legitimate. DLC $1 too expensive? You better believe that's legitimate.

Annoyed that the only female character in game is an ambulatory pair of tits? NOT LEGITIMATE. Annoyed that the protagonist is another grizzled, thirty something, brown-haired McGruff? NOT LEGITIMATE. Sad that the plot is stupid? MAYBE LEGITIMATE MAYBE NOT DEPENDS ON WHO YOU ASK IT IS COMPLICATED OK?

The important thing to remember is that gaming as an art form will DIE, and be FOREVER DESTROYED, if even one person is allowed to utter an illegitimate criticism without angry challenge. Shout at them! Call them names! There are many handy pejoratives you can fling at them, many of which are detailed in this forum on an hourly basis. They're probably not even REAL gamers! Don't let them besmirch the good name of this hobby! Show them our true colors, by belittling them and sneering at their concerns until they shut up, and recognize that the only valid perspective on the industry is YOURS.

Then give a speech! About CENSORSHIP! About the evils of SILENCING DISSENT.

Then buy a DICTIONARY! And look up HYPOCRISY! And then tear the page out, and throw it away! You don't need that shit!

 

[Casual Shinji]

Because beyond dressing like stripper for no reason, she also poses like one at every possible turn for no reason. And this isn't Bayonetta or some other purposely goofy character, this is some tragic individual who we as the audience are supposed to take seriously. *cut to her on all fours sticking her ass into the camera*

Hey, wouldn't it be great if Snake was constantly shoving his junk in our face and bending over so we could nearly catch sight of his asshole? Oh what, can you and your repressed Western sexuality not see past that?

The way Quiet dresses and behaves in her cell and the helicopter, the way the camera oogles her like someone shooting a porno, nothing about it correlates to her character AT ALL, and is only there to give you a boner. EVA from MGS3 had a reason for behaving the way she did, and at her worst was nowhere near as bad as Quiet is 90% of the time. And I don't mind getting a boner from a game character, but eventually you need to have the actual character become the main attraction. That is, if you want me to care for them even the slightest. With Quiet however, the game wants you to be aware of what a hot, fuckable piece of ass she is CONSTANTLY.

Again, if this was actually part of her character or story arc (whatever that would've been), fine, but it isn't. It's like James Sunderland wearing a rainbow wig in Silent Hill, or Alex Vance running around as a Sailor Scout in City 17.

Looks do matter for your character, kiddies, so make sure they fit.

 

[Something Amyss]

Yeah, I haven't played it either, but I've seen footage of her gyrating in the chopper like a stripper doing a lap dance, and writhing on the ground in the rain, and the logic of "she breathes through her skin" just doesn't cut it. xD It's so blatantly fanservice. Which I'm fine with honestly, provided a few criteria are met. If he'd just been honest about it, I wouldn't have any issue. Well, I don't have much issue anyway, as I don't play the MSG series after the second one, because it's just so fucking insane that I can't enjoy it. But I do roll my eyes a bit at his attempt to justify something so blatant.

It certainly would have received less scrutiny if Kojima hadn't gone the "shame. SHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAME!" route.

At the same time, I don't see a problem with calling blatant pandering fanservice blatant pandering fanservice.

If someone's a straight female that's been playing the MGS since the PS1 days, I get it could be irritating when the camera pans to Quiet and is basically like "Yooo, check THIS out!".

Or a female of any stripe who just don't like the way women are treated in games. Or a male of any stripe who feels the same. A good chunk of the people complaining are men.

Gimme a break. You put one woman in a den of hormone raging teens who probably still haven't seen a 'real' tit in their life while jerking it off to Pornhub and what do you expect? If you think censoring women in videogames is going to change all that you're being ridiculously naive. Complaining about behavior of teen boys who are anonymously hiding behind their computer screens and acne lotions is like complaing about being called a ''******'' in an unmoderated internet forum.

Is that really how you see gamers?

I should point out that I'm in my thirties and my peers still often behave like this. It has less to do with being hormonal teens and more to do with being in a permissive culture. And maybe culture treating women like strippers and sex toys isn't helping.

Also `what do you expect` type thinking just leads to women either stopping playing games or hiding themselves online which just further reinforces the dumb `gamers are all men` stereotype.

It leads to more of the same, as well.

"women are harassed" + "what do you expect" = more women harassed.

A lot of people are already trying to explain to you, so there's that. Games are reaching a much broader audience these days and so, there's gonna be a time when game devs have to realise that exclusively marketing themselves to teenager boys with obnoxious titty shots is just going to lose them money with people who aren't into that kind of thing. I don't think we're quite there yet, but there is a growing audience who are just kinda tired of it.

I think they have recognised this, and are trying to basically straddle an untenable line between "broader audience" and "traditional pandering." I think this is why Kojima tried to make excuses, rather than "I like big butts and I cannot lie."

The "look, there's a totally reasonable explanation for this" thing smacks of trying to placate everyone.

I don't have a problem with tit games being tit games. Like the beach volleyball thing, its obvious what that is there for. But when I'm trying to play a game which is apparently not a tit game and it's trying to shove tits in my face- it gets old very very fast.

I'm going to add especially with the weird physics those things have. I mean, it was kind of annoying in Saints Row when what were supposed to be A cups shook like jello on a fault line, but Quiet beats that easily.

...though some of the glitches in her jiggle physics are kind of funny.

 

[spartan231490]

Small people throw stones at the successful, so they can believe themselves to be morally superior. It's an ego boost for those who have no self-esteem, nothing more, and it should be paid no attention.

 

[dyre]

I don't really care much about the feminist aspect of it, but Quiet is downright ridiculous. It's like, I'm trying to play a serious military RPGFPS, and then some naked chick just pops in and wrecks the immersion. It's like the developer is trying to say, "I bet you're a horny teenager, right? Right? Here's some naked chicks, that'll make you happy, right??!" It just gets tiring. And it reeks of trying too hard.

Funny thing is, as a straight male, I like having attractive females in my video games. But dressing like a stripper and having no personality whatsoever...that's the lowest, most primitive form of attraction. It's like, what you cared about in women when you were a teenager, before you grew up and realized that women with actual interests and intelligent opinions and sophistication provide a vastly superior experience. I (my character) can't even have a fucking conversation with Quiet. The dog was more interesting than her. Give me Elizabeth from Bioshock or Tali from Mass Effect any day of the week.

 

[sageoftruth]

You must not know many women, then.

There's a decided lack of awareness among people if they're within a dominant or majority group. It's quite possible that women around him do get this kind of treatment and he doesn't notice.

2. The creator gave a real bullshit, idiotic reason for why she has to dress like that, and was quoted as saying "Once you learn why she's like that, you will feel shame for your criticisms".

I haven't played the game, and I haven't got any interest in playing the game, but when I heard this and found out what the real story was, I couldn't stop laughing at Kojima.

Fuck's sake, I'm someone with Onechanbara and Rumble Roses on my played games list. Hell, I don't even know why Kojima would try and pretend this wasn't about T&A.

The poor guy has been working with Konami for too long. I guess their tendency to tell ridiculous lies in order to save face rubbed off on him, at least enough for that one foolish statement to slip out. Good thing he no longer works for them. He needs to get the Komani stink off of him fast.