I need help understanding UPDATED

[SquallTheBlade]

I don't think fictional characters represent anyone other than themselves. A fictional bulky guy doesn't represent me. And fictional women don't represent the female friends I have. I don't mix fiction and reality because yes, that could cause some problems. Fantasy is fantasy and it should stay like that.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. Fictional characters can't represent themselves, because they have no selves to represent on account of being fictional. The only thing they can represent is their creator and the creator's worldview. Have you ever heard the saying, "Every painting is a self-portrait?" It refers to that idea.

But... that is pretty illogical don't you think? I mean I could write or paint about racism, murder or any other thing that I don't agree on. Does that mean I approve of those things? Of course not. If I write a character that is an asshole, does that make me an asshole? No.

So, I don't agree with your statement at all.

When one of two female characters in a huge game is a near-mute who dresses like a strung-out stripper and poses endlessly at the camera for you, and the other is a child (yeah, she's supposed to be in her twenties, but fuck off, that is a child's school uniform) who is tortured and killed for the sake of motivating you, Hideo Kojima is making a pretty ugly blanket statement about the role women play in his world.

No, he is making a statement on what those two represent in his world. What about The Boss? If Kojima only viewed women like you described, then The Boss couldn't exist. Yet she is pretty awesome character in MGS3.

Those are the two women, the victim and the girlfriend, and he doesn't need to know my friends for the statement to be about them because Quiet isn't a bullet to aim at an individual. She's a glimpse into the world as Hideo Kojima perceives it.

I like my fictional character in skimpy outfits and posing for me as much as the next guy. Does that mean I perceive real life living and breathing women like that? No. That's absurd. Fiction is supposed to be a safe place for those fantasies. Fiction doesn't ,and should not in my opinion, represent real life.

 

[JimB]

But...that is pretty illogical, don't you think?

No, because context is a real thing that exists. A person doesn't have to compartmentalize it, as with your example of writing about a single murder apparently happening in a white-room scenario, divorced from any events surrounding it. A person can examine Quiet and compare her to previous Metal Gear female characters to see if there's a pattern of women getting their tits out for no apparent reason, including while in motherfucking Alaska where such an act is tantamount to writing a suicide note, and from that use deductive reasoning to make inferences.

No, he is making a statement on what those two represent in his world.

How many years ago was the Boss, again?

I like my fictional character in skimpy outfits and posing for me as much as the next guy. Does that mean I perceive real life living and breathing women like that?

I am not going to psychoanalyze you, SquallTheBlade. I've never met you and you don't have a huge body of published work for me to examine. If you want to insist you're innocent, then fine, have fun with that, and just ignore my tired sigh that once again this conversation has to start being about fantastically useless concepts like innocence and guilt of people who have not been accused of anything rather than about the effects being had on real people. In short, SquallTheBlade, I have no interest in judging you, no profit on judging you, and no profit on pretending that you and Hideo Kojima are the same person such that whatever self-proclaimed innocence you possess must also apply to him and his work.

Fiction doesn't, and should not in my opinion, represent real life.

Imagination is nothing but memory divorced from context. Human beings cannot create things they have no experience from. Without experience of lizards, fire, things that are big, and things that fly, a human being is incapable of imagining a dragon. It is ridiculous to me to insist that things invented by real people should be considered divorced from the real world, particularly when the goal of doing so is to duck responsibility and declare one's own moral purity.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

No, because context is a real thing that exists. A person doesn't have to compartmentalize it, as with your example of writing about a single murder apparently happening in a white-room scenario, divorced from any events surrounding it. A person can examine Quiet and compare her to previous Metal Gear female characters to see if there's a pattern of women getting their tits out for no apparent reason, including while in motherfucking Alaska where such an act is tantamount to writing a suicide note, and from that use deductive reasoning to make inferences.

And? What's the conclusion actually? That Kojima likes his fictional women with boobs? I don't see a problem with that.

How many years ago was the Boss, again?

11. Why do you ask?

Imagination is nothing but memory divorced from context. Human beings cannot create things they have no experience from. Without experience of lizards, fire, things that are big, and things that fly, a human being is incapable of imagining a dragon. It is ridiculous to me to insist that things invented by real people should be considered divorced from the real world, particularly when the goal of doing so is to duck responsibility and declare one's own moral purity.

Well thats true. You form the fiction from your imagination which is fueled by your real life experiences. But that doesn't mean that the fictional world you create is something you want to insist on to the world. Just like you won't think that dragons really exist, you won't start to think that all women should be in skimpy clothes waving their butt at your face.

Why do you think fantasy is called fantasy? Because it's something you can't or shouldn't do in real life. And that's fine! As long as it stays a fantasy.

 

[JimB]

What's the conclusion actually? That Kojima likes his fictional women with boobs? I don't see a problem with that.

Just as I am not interested in psychoanalyzing you, I am not interested in taking your bait and turning Hideo Kojima into the rope in a tug-of-war. I think you know perfectly well what conclusions I have drawn about his views on gender politics.

Eleven. Why do you ask?

I'm just wondering why you think I ought to consider a single, decade-old example as being more pertinent than the ones right in front of me right now. I accept that sexual objectification of women is not the only response to them he is capable of forming--he is a human being and therefore eminently capable of possessing nuanced, varied, and contradictory beliefs--but please do not pretend the Boss somehow makes Quiet not have her tits out, nor Sniper Wolf, nor, uh, that dark-skinned lucky chick from the Solid game with Raiden.

Just like you won't think that dragons really exist, you won't start to think that all women should be in skimpy clothes waving their butt at your face.

I won't think that, but I haven't spent jillions of dollars portraying it on TV screens across the world.

Why do you think fantasy is called fantasy? Because it's something you can't or shouldn't do in real life.

That is not what the word means. It merely describes things that have been imagined; and, interestingly enough to a linguistics nerd like me, comes from a root word meaning "to show in light," as in, to shine a light on the working's of the creator's mind. There is no inherent proscription in the word, and while I assume you seem to be arguing that fantasy can only ever be fantasy, that it can't have any basis in what the creator believes nor have an effect on the real world, I'd like to remind you I joined this conversation to describe the experience I have had with my friends in the real world, and now you're here implying those experiences could not have happened because fantasy runs perfectly parallel to reality, never intersecting with it.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

I'm just wondering why you think I ought to consider a single, decade-old example as being more pertinent than the ones right in front of me right now.

Do you even realize how IMPORTANT The Boss is in the MGS universe? She is basically one of the few reasons anything happens. She has always been relevant to all the games and is hugely important in MGS5 too.

And besides, you just said that Kojima has a certain view about women but I wanted to bring up an counter example. You can't just ignore her existence to support your view.

but I do think there's plenty of evidence on display that's the world Mr. Kojima wants to create.

I won't think that, but I haven't spent jillions of dollars portraying it on TV screens across the world.

Let me get this straight. You think Kojima wants to create a world where stuff happens like in MGS universe? You think he wants a world full of mercenaries fighting for what they belive is right with a idol like figure supporting them? He wants to have a world of digital information control done by AIs?

I'm lost for words really.

There is no inherent proscription in the word, and while I assume you seem to be arguing that fantasy can only ever be fantasy, that it can't have any basis in what the creator believes nor have an effect on the real world,

It can have basis on beliefs of the creator. No doubt about it. But what of it? If it stays a fantasy, then no harm is done.

I'd like to remind you I joined this conversation to describe the experience I have had with my friends in the real world, and now you're here implying those experiences could not have happened because fantasy runs perfectly parallel to reality, never intersecting with it.

They happened. Your friends saw something they didn't like. That's no harm. That's just people not liking things. It doesn't inherently harm anyone. I mean, it's fiction. It's just words on paper, a image on a screen. If it bothers anyone, they have the choice of not consuming it.

 

[Jux]

Wells she's genetically modified so it's entirely possible she's part bug.

Good lord this game gets stupider all the time. Can anyone weigh in on this? I've considered getting it when the price comes down, but if it's this fucking ridiculous I'm not sure I'll bother. Is Quiet a bug person?

It doesn't even matter as spiracles=! Photosynthesis, it's not even the same mechanism. If Quiet literally breathed through her pores, it might be an appropriate comparison, but kojima said she photosynthesizes.

The only insect found that (might) use photosynthesis is the aphid. The thing is, the pigments that allow for photosynthesis are green. Last I looked, Quiet wasn't.

Edit: it's contrived nonsense. I guess those magical parasites also fixed all those horrible burn scars. And regardless if it's photosynthesis or spiracles, she wouldn't nearly suffocate from putting regular clothes on any more than I would having a shirt over my head. It's not like they dressed her up in a latex gimp suit, which would inhibit 'pore breathing' (if spiracles) and if it was a sunlight issue, what keeps her alive at night?

It would just be better if people stopped trying to defend it with pseudoscience nonsense and just said 'magical parasites' and 'kojima likes nearly naked, super sexualized women in his games' and just left it at that.

 

[JimB]

Do you even realize how important the Boss is in the MGS universe?

Yes. So what? Does the Boss being important mean Sniper Wolf zipped up her shirt or that Quiet wore one?

Let me get this straight. You think Kojima wants to create a world where stuff happens like in MGS universe?

I think his views on gender politics consist of women being subservient to men in primarily sexual roles.

It can have basis on beliefs of the creator. No doubt about it. But what of it? If it stays a fantasy, then no harm is done.

You do not get to decide what my rubric for harm done is.

 

[Redryhno]

I don't think fictional characters represent anyone other than themselves. A fictional bulky guy doesn't represent me. And fictional women don't represent the female friends I have. I don't mix fiction and reality because yes, that could cause some problems. Fantasy is fantasy and it should stay like that.

I think you're looking at it from the wrong angle. Fictional characters can't represent themselves, because they have no selves to represent on account of being fictional. The only thing they can represent is their creator and the creator's worldview. Have you ever heard the saying, "Every painting is a self-portrait?" It refers to that idea. When one of two female characters in a huge game is a near-mute who dresses like a strung-out stripper and poses endlessly at the camera for you, and the other is a child (yeah, she's supposed to be in her twenties, but fuck off, that is a child's school uniform) who is tortured and killed for the sake of motivating you, Hideo Kojima is making a pretty ugly blanket statement about the role women play in his world. Those are the two women, the victim and the girlfriend, and he doesn't need to know my friends for the statement to be about them because Quiet isn't a bullet to aim at an individual. She's a glimpse into the world as Hideo Kojima perceives it.

You ever heard of another saying about art? That you don't have to look for what you don't like? There's a grand total of THREE times in the game where Quiet poses for the camera in the way you're describing(and even then, it's more her just walking around hunched over like everyone else and it's just her clothes that make it like that), and in TWO of them, you have the option to not have her in your view...

And jesus christ man, have you ever played a Metal Gear game? Or listened to ANYTHING Kojima's ever said? Rose is the reason Raiden starts figuring that he's being mind-fucked in MGS2, The Boss in MGS3 being the good soldier and the scapegoat needed that kickstarts Big Boss's plan to free the soldiers of the world, Fortune, Olga, Wolf, Maria, all very strong women that are honestly just a rule 63'd standard soldier that had their loved ones taken from them and so they're self-destructing in the only way they know how. Paz in the other Big Boss-focused games is a fucking monster. Even Quiet's a bastard before you officially meet her that survives being lit COMPLETELY on fire and dropped out of a third-story window to be implanted with the parasites.

There are alot more archetypes in Kojima's wheelhouse than "girlfriend" and "victim". A prevailing theme of the entire series is that ALL soldiers that aren't mercenaries of their own choosing are victims for crissakes. It doesn't discriminate beyond more often than not, men will be killed and children and women will be allowed to live, albeit with mental scars that then continue the cycle of violence and victimization.

You won't find me saying that he doesn't heavily rely on archetypes to tell his oftentimes nonsensical stories, but to say he's only got two for women is disrespectful to every action they take in every game they appear in. The most ordinary people in the franchise are two women, yes. But Rose did SO much in-universe to protect her kid and Raiden that super-ninja cyborg and engineered super weapons couldn't. And Meryl survives being shot like four different times through the chest with guns that don't leave alot left to survive being shot from in the first place. MGS1 she breaks out of her prison and effectively nets an admirer for life who has basically been THE scapegoat for every joke in the series. She's a damn tough soldier. To say that she's "victim" or "girlfriend" is incredibly disrespectful.

And this is ignoring that Otacon is the single most victimized character in the entire series. He has had EVERYONE he's ever cared for die pretty much in front of his eyes. Father, Sister, Girlfriend, Step-Mother, Super-Soldier Buddy, intellectual equal. The only person he's got left is Sunny. And even then, he's finding himself getting old as well and becoming less relevant in his field, but there's still possible Metal Gears out there.

 

[JimB]

There's a grand total of three times in the game where Quiet poses for the camera in the way you're describing (and even then, it's more her just walking around hunched over like everyone else and it's just her clothes that make it like that).

So that means no one spent hours designing her outfit and coding the character model to make that happen, then?

Jesus Christ man, have you ever played a Metal Gear game?

Yes. I've watched Meryl do exercises in her underwear, I've gone through the scripted plot points of staring at Meryl's ass, I've watched Sniper Wolf run around in the motherfucking arctic with her shirt unzipped to her navel, I've collected porn, I've watched Fortune stroll around in a bathing suit. That other things happen doesn't phase me. My list of complaints still happened.

To say that she's "victim" or "girlfriend" is incredibly disrespectful.

I do not care if I disrespect a person who doesn't exist. She still is explicitly damseled twice in Metal Gear Solid, and if I had to guess, I'd say it happens again in the fourth installment.

And this is ignoring that Otacon is the single most victimized character in the entire series.

How silly of me to forget all the times he put on a bikini and poured soap suds down his DDs while staring meaningfully at the camera.

 

[Redryhno]

There's a grand total of three times in the game where Quiet poses for the camera in the way you're describing (and even then, it's more her just walking around hunched over like everyone else and it's just her clothes that make it like that).

So that means no one spent hours designing her outfit and coding the character model to make that happen, then?

Jesus Christ man, have you ever played a Metal Gear game?

Yes. I've watched Meryl do exercises in her underwear, I've gone through the scripted plot points of staring at Meryl's ass, I've watched Sniper Wolf run around in the motherfucking arctic with her shirt unzipped to her navel, I've collected porn, I've watched Fortune stroll around in a bathing suit. That other things happen doesn't phase me. My list of complaints still happened.

To say that she's "victim" or "girlfriend" is incredibly disrespectful.

I do not care if I disrespect a person who doesn't exist. She still is explicitly damseled twice in Metal Gear Solid, and if I had to guess, I'd say it happens again in the fourth installment.

And this is ignoring that Otacon is the single most victimized character in the entire series.

How silly of me to forget all the times he put on a bikini and poured soap suds down his DDs while staring meaningfully at the camera.

I'm shit at formatting, so I'm just going to go one by one.

I never said that, I said that it is OPTIONAL. Just as in Hitman, you can kill everyone in a level if you want to. In Saint's Row, you can bomb the city. In so many games, you CAN do it. And just as in any number of RPGs, you can dress followers up in nothing if you want. Hell, there's even alternative costumes you can get that make it less so if you so choose. Or just not take her ever because she doesn't work with your playstyle. And yet you're saying here continually that it shouldn't be there.

So what you're saying is that they're either sex bots or characters? There's no way that they could simply be characters with strange fashion sense? Need I remind you of the Raiden junk run? Or Vamp looking at your crotch in two games multiple times? Or simply Vamp existing?

And Snake is Damseled as well, three times... And she's "damseled" four times, two of which she gets her own ass out without help. And you "guess" it happens again? Are you REALLY going to tell me you haven't played the series, but you feel you're perfectly justified in your judgements of ANYTHING in it? And yes, in 4, she is damseled, but so is everyone with nanomachines, including Snake. The only person that doesn't is Johnny, the running gag of the series, the butt of every joke about bad soldiers, the shitshow that fumbles his way through life.

And to see you equate victimhood with dress and boobs is just disgusting. Do you understand LOSS at all? Do you understand that being a victim is more than daddy issues and lack of clothing? Going by your responses here, you do, and that's just...pathetic. Of every character in the series, the one that's for the audience is Otacon. Just a nerd with a shit draw at life. And that's including the Kojima self-insert joke that is literally the worst spy in the universe.

 

[JimB]

I'm shit at formatting, so I'm just going to go one by one.

I'll try to keep up, but I would request that if you don't know how to multiquote, you please explicitly mention what the subject of a given paragraph is.

You're saying here continually that it shouldn't be there.

No, I am not. I am not prescribing any course of action, nor asking anything of anyone. Your titty-filled video games are safe from me: I am not coming to your house to take them away, nor petitioning the government to do so. I am saying that I look at the history of the Metal Gear games and I see a very clear pattern. I am not saying it's the only pattern (which is not a thing I thought I'd have to explicitly state, but I forget how defensive people get about this shit), but I am saying it is a pattern that exists, and nothing about any other pattern you care to name makes the one I'm talking about stop being there.

There's no way that they could simply be characters with strange fashion sense?

No. Characters do not have fashion sense. Only real people can have those. Whatever traits Quiet has, they were given to her and/or vetted by Hideo Kojima.

Are you really going to tell me you haven't played the series, but you feel you're perfectly justified in your judgements of anything in it?

Yes, I am; and not only am I going to tell you that, I already said it in a previous post in this thread. Shit got stupid in Metal Gear Solid 2, so I hopped off the train and never looked back. And please get off your high horse about this since you admit my guess is correct. This is very basic pattern-recognition stuff here.

To see you equate victimhood with dress and boobs is just disgusting.

Not what I said. I advise you to read my post again. At no point did I conflate the two women Mr. Kojima enjoys portraying; that is your own invention, projected onto me.

Do you understand that being a victim is more than daddy issues and lack of clothing?

I also never said a word about daddy issues. If you want to keep engaging me, Redrhyno, please do me the courtesy of addressing things I actually said, not the things a paranoid fantasy version of me said, because I am not interested in defending claims I never made.

 

[Redryhno]

snipo

I'm just going to leave it at this, you said that every painting is a self-portrait. And then you said that Kojima only has two archetypes for women. Following the logic you put up, you are saying that Kojima only allows two types of women. And when confronted that there's actually more, you decide that there isn't and you can't ignore this. Do you also solely see your lovers as pieces of meat because they dressed up in a swimsuit once as well? Or are you going to fall back on your

I think his views on gender politics consist of women being subservient to men in primarily sexual roles.

quote again?

In the entire franchise, there's only like two women that are subservient to men, neither of them sexual. Quiet, who had to be threatened with death before she stopped killing soldiers on the oil rig and then eventually came to respect Big Boss(you can argue Stockholm Syndrome all you want, everyone you balloon goes through the same process). And Paz, who only is like that post-Ground Zeroes and is just slowly recovering her memories because she lost like fifteen years. Olga, Meryl, Rose, Sunny, Eva, Naomi, Para-Medic, Wolf, Fortuna The Boss. All strong female characters thorughout the series that are respected for their actions and abilities far more than how sexy they are by both the fans and the universe.

I have zero problem with people thinking Quiet's dress and justification is stupid. But when you start talking like you know what you're talking about when you admit that you're just guessing something that really isn't that hard to guess because Metal Gear plays out like a stereotypical war movie crossed with super-spy sci-fi...you just lose all respect. Especially when you continue to be given women in positions of power throughout the franchise, with Kojima, a guy that I believe has said he has some sort of femdom fetish, and you focus solely on their bodies. Their actions, personalities, life stories, all nothing because of how they're modeled. And you still think that's a perfectly ok place to start your accusations and judgements from?

Rhetorical questions all, this conversation will be going nowhere with you.

 

[JimB]

Following the logic you put up, you are saying that Kojima only allows two types of women. And when confronted that there's actually more, you decide that there isn't and you can't ignore this.

So far, if you've shown me a woman who isn't a love interest or a victim, I haven't noticed it.

I have zero problem with people thinking Quiet's dress and justification is stupid. But when you start talking like you know what you're talking about when you admit that you're just guessing something that really isn't that hard to guess because Metal Gear plays out like a stereotypical war movie crossed with super-spy sci-fi...you just lose all respect.

If you lose all respect for me because I can accurately guess based on a fifteen-year pattern of behavior, then that is just a loss I shall have to cry myself to sleep over.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

Following the logic you put up, you are saying that Kojima only allows two types of women. And when confronted that there's actually more, you decide that there isn't and you can't ignore this.

So far, if you've shown me a woman who isn't a love interest or a victim, I haven't noticed it.

The Boss. Mei Ling. Rose. Sunny. Olga etc. etc.

Oh, right. You just aren't going to count those, right?

 

[JimB]

The Boss.

Victim: The game's whole plot is a ridiculously convoluted suicide plan meant to burden Big Boss with a heavy conscience.

Mei Ling.

Eh...I'll give you this one, I guess. I mean, Snake kept flirting with her throughout the game, and the art kept depicting her wearing a skirt so short it belongs on an episode of Ally McBeal, but she does not technically become Snake's girlfriend. Hooray.

Rose.

...You're kidding me, right? She is explicitly Raiden's girlfriend and later his wife, and she's held hostage to give Raiden impetus to do what the game is already about.

Sunny.

She's eleven. She's not a woman.

Olga.

Victim: Coerced into participating in the game's plot, mother of a kidnap victim, and shot in the face.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

The Boss.

Victim: The game's whole plot is a ridiculously convoluted suicide plan meant to burden Big Boss with a heavy conscience.

Mei Ling.

Eh...I'll give you this one, I guess. I mean, Snake kept flirting with her throughout the game, and the art kept depicting her wearing a skirt so short it belongs on an episode of Ally McBeal, but she does not technically become Snake's girlfriend. Hooray.

Rose.

...You're kidding me, right? She is explicitly Raiden's girlfriend and later his wife, and she's held hostage to give Raiden impetus to do what the game is already about.

Sunny.

She's eleven. She's not a woman.

Olga.

Victim: Coerced into participating in the game's plot, mother of a kidnap victim, and shot in the face.

None of those characters are so simple. But whatever, you just want too them as victims or girlfriends and nothing else. Not that there is something wrong with them being just that either.

By the way, how can you talk about the series like you know more about it when you stopped at MGS2?

 

[JimB]

None of those characters are so simple.

I don't remember saying they're simple, just that they all fit into those categories.

By the way, how can you talk about the series like you know more about it when you stopped at MGS2?

I know how to read, and Google is a thing.

 

[SquallTheBlade]

None of those characters are so simple.

I don't remember saying they're simple, just that they all fit into those categories.

By the way, how can you talk about the series like you know more about it when you stopped at MGS2?

I know how to read, and Google is a thing.

You can't be serious. I think I'm done. There is no way anyone could or should criticize anything if they haven't experienced it themselves. You just don't have enough information about them by just doing a few google searches.

It's like judging a book by it's cover or what it says on the back of the book.
Or judging a movie by it's trailer.

You can't SERIOUSLY think you know what kind of character, for example The Boss is. It's just impossible. You NEED to have played the game.

 

[JimB]

You can't be serious.

Of course I can be. I've done research, I've read up on it, and I have used those reports to form an opinion. People do that all the time. I'm as serious as you are when you choose to support a political candidate despite only having heard news reports about him rather than having met him yourself.

I think I'm done.

Frankly, SquallTheBlade, you were done a long time ago. I have presented my arguments, and your counters have been lists of names devoid of context and to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about even as you tell me my guesses about the content of the games have been right. If you have some kind of actual evidence or, failing that, argument beyond "Nuh-uh" to lob at me, then I welcome it; but to be frank, I do not expect such an effort from you because you are taking this all immensely personally for no reason I can imagine, as evidenced by this line I'm about to quote:

You can't seriously think you know what kind of character, for example, the Boss is.

I didn't say I know what kind of character she is. You are projecting that, telling me I mean more than I literally said (which is a bad idea with me, because I am stringently and often unconsciously literal), when all I said is she fits into one of two categories I believe Hideo Kojima perceives women to belong to. That's it. I said nothing about "knowing" her character, whatever that means in your mind. There's a certain irony here that you seem outraged at my presumption to know more than you think I have a right to even as you presume you know my arguments despite your demonstrably incorrect reading of them, but whatever, I'm rambling now. If you want to be done, then be done, but please at least don't try to tell me it's because of views I hold that I don't actually hold and that you invented for me.

 

[Redryhno]

You can't be serious.

Of course I can be. I've done research, I've read up on it, and I have used those reports to form an opinion. People do that all the time. I'm as serious as you are when you choose to support a political candidate despite only having heard news reports about him rather than having met him yourself.

I think I'm done.

Frankly, SquallTheBlade, you were done a long time ago. I have presented my arguments, and your counters have been lists of names devoid of context and to accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about even as you tell me my guesses about the content of the games have been right. If you have some kind of actual evidence or, failing that, argument beyond "Nuh-uh" to lob at me, then I welcome it; but to be frank, I do not expect such an effort from you because you are taking this all immensely personally for no reason I can imagine, as evidenced by this line I'm about to quote:

You can't seriously think you know what kind of character, for example, the Boss is.

I didn't say I know what kind of character she is. You are projecting that, telling me I mean more than I literally said (which is a bad idea with me, because I am stringently and often unconsciously literal), when all I said is she fits into one of two categories I believe Hideo Kojima perceives women to belong to. That's it. I said nothing about "knowing" her character, whatever that means in your mind. There's a certain irony here that you seem outraged at my presumption to know more than you think I have a right to even as you presume you know my arguments despite your demonstrably incorrect reading of them, but whatever, I'm rambling now. If you want to be done, then be done, but please at least don't try to tell me it's because of views I hold that I don't actually hold and that you invented for me.

Dude, you've done nothing but jump to a different talking point when confronted with things that don't agree with your worldview...I don't really think you get to take this moral high ground you continually try to claim.

I don't give a damn that you don't like Quiet's outfit or think it's stupid, I think it's stupid as well. I don't think anyone really minds if you don't like it or think it's stupid. It's that I don't think there's much you've said in this thread that hasn't been objectively wrong about the series.

Not to mention, you're the one that was talking about how art is created is the way it's digested. Yet you have admitted that you haven't experienced said art in anything but reading about it. You didn't even watch a playthrough of the damn thing. Yet you STILL think you have a perfectly objective opinion that can't possibly be wrong.

None of those characters are so simple.

I don't remember saying they're simple, just that they all fit into those categories.

By the way, how can you talk about the series like you know more about it when you stopped at MGS2?

I know how to read, and Google is a thing.

You can't be serious. I think I'm done. There is no way anyone could or should criticize anything if they haven't experienced it themselves. You just don't have enough information about them by just doing a few google searches.

It's like judging a book by it's cover or what it says on the back of the book.
Or judging a movie by it's trailer.

You can't SERIOUSLY think you know what kind of character, for example The Boss is. It's just impossible. You NEED to have played the game.

To be fair, MGS is one of those series that I think you can experience through watching just as much as playing, but this moral guardian has decided that his opinion is worth anything just because he's read about it...

If that's all it takes, then I really have to start wondering...