I shall now say unkind things about Dark Souls.

[Vegosiux]

snip

Sounds like this game was just not meant for you if you're getting bored and frustrated by literally just running down two hallways to reach a boss fight. Maybe you should go play Uncharted or something, with quicksaves every 5 seconds and recharging health.

You know, I always said this kind of attiude has "self-esteem issues" written all over it.

No really. I don't care how hard the games people play are, if they have to get snarky and condescending towards someone who has some criticism (criticism that actually looks quite valid from here, I might add), then all I can conclude they're not those awesome manly badasses they think they are for beating a "HARD game for MEN!!!?"

And I'll agree with the OP that "challenge" and "a waste of time that surves no purpose" are two different things, for that matter. Ever tried to complete an Infocom game without hints? -That- is a challenge (Especially Bureaucracy. That one even lampshades it in that you die in-game of blood pressure). Not bashing your head against something until the stars align.

As for the particular game, well, I'll see some day, when I get to it.

Oh but who am I kidding, not like anyone is going to realize how stupid this greater than thou attitude makes them look.

 

[JasonKaotic]

I'm going to skip a big chunk of that post. You seriously let having less-than-average graphics have a big impact on your opinion of a game? Wow.
Edit: By the way, there usually aren't actually that many enemies between a checkpoint and a boss. When you know the way there it won't take you long to get there if you die. And if you die easily chances are you should prepare a bit more before taking on the boss again anyway.
Another edit: My only problem with it is having players come into my game and one-hit me after making lots of progress/finally getting past a bit that took me ages/racking up loads of souls/humanity. That is a stupid decision from the developers.

 

[AlternatePFG]

Capra Demon is just kind of a shitty and cheap boss fight your first time around. Poor camera angles, right at the start you get stunlocked by those dogs, and you have to do something very specific and unintuitive to get the upper hand. If you run back from Firelink and just keep going at it, you'll eventually beat it.

As for the respawning enemies, it's just part of the game design. It wants you to do a "perfect" run through the area before you get to the boss. If it just autosaved you before entering the boss door, that wouldn't be very punishing would it? With the exception of a few areas (Most of them at the start actually, Taurus and Capra specifically) getting to the boss once you've unlocked the shortcut/cleared the area and got everything you wanted is easy. If there isn't a shortcut (Most areas have one in one form or another) but you've already made it to the boss, it's totally possible just to run past all the enemies straight to the fog door. (Like I said, there's some exceptions) The tougher ones don't respawn, and a lot of the fodder is easy to dodge.

Took me forever to beat the game my first time through too. Repeat playthroughs go much faster (It's still a pretty lengthy game regardless) and once you get in the right mindset, it gets really addicting.

Edit: Also people saying "Maybe you just aren't good enough at the game" should just shut up, it's completely unhelpful and doesn't contribute to anything at all. The game is pretty brutal for new players, I doubt any of you did that great your first times through either.

 

[hazabaza1]

As a proud member of the Dark Souls community, I hate how a lot of the arguments other people in the Dark Souls community have is just "it's 2 herd 4 u nub lolz"
Not this thread in particular, just a general observation.

 

[Vegosiux]

As a proud member of the Dark Souls community, I hate how a lot of the arguments other people in the Dark Souls community have is just "it's 2 herd 4 u nub lolz"
Not this thread in particular, just a general observation.

Thing is, that kind of talk makes them feel big (with that Zapp Branningan-esque pronounciation of "g"). That's why they do it.

 

[The Wykydtron]

Oh and I don't mind the challenge when it's actually fair. The people who say every death is fair are talking out of their collective assholes. Snipers. Anor Londo. Fuck!

Move forward. Block - have large stamina protecting shield if possible.
When near - rush them and knock them off platform. Easy.

When far (taking out enemies on starting platform), stay behind pillars to not die.

Just tried it again not an hour ago

When near get shot in the back by the other dickhead, when even closer get stunlocked by point blank arrows because the asshole won't switch to his sword until he fires an extra 3 arrows at me. Even if he does go for his sword I don't have the stamina to do fuck all. Get hit by anything and I just drama queen myself off the edge.

Oh and that second Sniper can still hit me I think ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuck you game!

So basically the game is unwinnable because I don't have a super shield...



I had to go and kill that Fire Keeper person in front of the bonfire in a fit of rage after dying to that segment. Hope that doesn't screw with any timelines XD

Oh is killing almost every non-hostile ************ in the plot going to have any ramifications later? They have loot, are of no interest to me and are squishier than regular enemies. Therefore they shall die




And some people are being reaaaalllly protective of their precious Dark Souls aren't they? Could it be that cheap ass bullshit isn't good game design?! *le gasp!*

Put it this way, I had to go and play some Skullgirls and Trials to calm down after playing DS, a fighting game online and a hilarious motorbike griefing simulator were used as a chill out tool.

Make of that what you will XD


[sub]Yes i'm being an asshole, i'm annoyed, fucking sue me[/sub]

 

[Vegosiux]

The big issues that makes us fans protective of it, is people rage posting. Frustration does in fact equal difficulty because guess what happens when you are faced with difficult obstacles? Science says you get frustrated. Thousands of years of evolution and that's still true.

Sorry, but I have to interject on your wording here. Science says people get frustrated when faced with difficulty, yes, that's true.

However, concluding "frustration equals difficulty" from that is kind of silly. Difficult obstacles are one of the causes for frustration, but you can't draw that conclusion. Do not misuse science, please *hiss*

We're not insulting you, no game is for everyone, and this game isn't for you. So when you tell us it's cheap, it's frustrating, and it's just a time sink, you're telling an artist that, "The Persistence of Memory" is just a bunch of poorly drawn clocks.

Pretty sure that wording will catch some flak. "It's just not for you" or "It's just art you don't understand" are sentiments that are inherently offensive to people, because they contain this inherent assumption that whoever is saying it considers themselves "greater" in a sense that they can appreciate something that the other, "lesser" person can't.

Regardless of whether you mean it that way or not, that's just human psychology at work.

 

[Ickorus]

Thing is, apart from the total lack of story, it's exactly my kind of game.

Oh hoho!

The story is actually pretty good but you have to actively look for it, it just isn't presented to you on a platter like other games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvWvhZtaV7M&list=PL4825DBA198EBE9B9&index=1&feature=plpp_video

Check those videos out for more. (Spoiler warning)

More on topic:

The game is pretty cheap at times, I'm a massive fan and I admit it and funnily enough so do the developers, they even apologized for it and asked whether we wanted another game after Dark Souls.

I don't really find much of an issue with the run to boss fights though, I kinda like that even if it can be irritating sometimes.

There is one I hate though, the lava death run.

 

[Vegosiux]

It doesn't matter what the wording is, someone will always get offended. Being told they don't understand something will upset them even if it's true regardless of context.
A child wants my soda, her mother says it's not for her, she gets upset. It doesn't matter that the sugar and caffeine will fuck up her developing body and brain and heart and colon, she wants it and can't have it. She doesn't care why or even understand why, she just knows she wants it and can't have it, and being told so upsets her. Any feelings she has that she is being demeaned are created in HER head, unless of course tone, inflection, or outright words are used to make her feel lesser.
It doesn't matter how you sugar coat it, being told you don't understand it, or it's not for you, will most likely upset you.

Yes, that's basically what I said, really. It's just something that always rubs people the wrong way.

And fuck anyone who asks the world to hold their hand and coddle them.

Come now, you're making it look like a black and white issue with this one. I wouldn't say that the only alternative to "masochistic level of difficulty" is "hand holding and coddling".

Note, I have not yet played DS, and from what I hear of it, I seriously can't make up my mind, the information is so oddly contradictory. Sometimes it seems to me as if it runs on fake difficulty, murdering you for not knowing something you had literally no way of knowing, and shoehorning you into one of a handful of specific playstyles with little room to play it your own way; and sometimes it seems as if it's just like those old Infocom text adventures that I mentioned earlier, when it gives you all the information and you only have yourself to blame if you mess up...well, while still going all snarky and "sucks to be you har har" on you.

Time will tell, I suppose, when I play it. But honestly, this is one game after a long, long, long time that I have no clue just what to make of just from hearing about it.

 

[Ando85]

I actually got Dark Souls a few months back and haven't played it yet for some of those reasons. I knew what to expect having played Demon's Souls. However as a whole I look back on Demon's Souls as an awesome game and felt really accomplished when I beat it.

Perhaps the reason I still hold high praises for Demon's Souls is how the mind seems to forget painful and frustrating experiences but vividly remembers victory.

I spent about 40 some odd hours playing Demon's Souls. When I look past the difficulty, constant dying, and playing segments time and time again until I finally beat the boss and advance I realize the game is actually kind of short.

A good example to compare and moreso contrast I think is Kingdoms of Amalur. I spent about 49 hours playing it so far. I got to the end of the game with finesse, and I plan to replay it on hard with a might build. Playing that game on normal was a breeze. I quickly progressed through the game due to its low difficulty, but still spent more time playing it than I did Demon's Souls.

A lot of Demon's Souls was playing the same section time and time again. If it was easy it would be over quite quickly.

 

[The Wykydtron]

Just tried it again not an hour ago

When near get shot in the back by the other dickhead, when even closer get stunlocked by point blank arrows because the asshole won't switch to his sword until he fires an extra 3 arrows at me. Even if he does go for his sword I don't have the stamina to do fuck all. Get hit by anything and I just drama queen myself off the edge.

Oh and that second Sniper can still hit me I think ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuck you game!

So basically the game is unwinnable because I don't have a super shield...

Eagle Shield is actually relatively weak. Sorry you're having trouble with them fools but that's just how it is some times.

I had to go and kill that Fire Keeper person in front of the bonfire in a fit of rage after dying to that segment. Hope that doesn't screw with any timelines XD

Oh is killing almost every non-hostile ************ in the plot going to have any ramifications later? They have loot, are of no interest to me and are squishier than regular enemies. Therefore they shall die

Actually killing a firekeeper shuts off their bonfire.

And some people are being reaaaalllly protective of their precious Dark Souls aren't they? Could it be that cheap ass bullshit isn't good game design?! *le gasp!*

Actually it's because it's a well built game for a niche market. The stuff in Dark Souls isn't new. At all. In fact Dark Souls was a lot easier for me than Castlevania: Symphony of the Night.
The big issues that makes us fans protective of it, is people rage posting. Frustration does in fact equal difficulty because guess what happens when you are faced with difficult obstacles? Science says you get frustrated. Thousands of years of evolution and that's still true. We get mad because people make claims about the game that are simply not true. And it's a niche game.
When we say, "It's probably not for you", we aren't insulting you. We fucking mean it. I like Halo, I love TF2 and HL2 but guess what, Call of Duty is not for me. It's not hard to pick up, but it's a long and tedious process to master and get good at it. But it requires reflexes that I just don't have, I'm too engrained in Unreal, it's all I can play for shooters now.
We're not insulting you, no game is for everyone, and this game isn't for you. So when you tell us it's cheap, it's frustrating, and it's just a time sink, you're telling an artist that, "The Persistence of Memory" is just a bunch of poorly drawn clocks.

You don't have the mindset we do, and it requires extreme patience, willingness to learn, more patience for learning, and acceptance of punishment for failure. Sure the rewards are cheap and disproportionate to the effort, but that's masochism for you.

Put it this way, I had to go and play some Skullgirls and Trials to calm down after playing DS, a fighting game online and a hilarious motorbike griefing simulator were used as a chill out tool.

Both of those games are awesome

Yeah i suppose you're right, now maybe the next time one these threads comes up I can just go and not post in it... Or if i'm in a bad mood just rage at the snipers again

Thanks for keeping things civil, +1 internets for you good sir.

Right, brilliant solution to the rage problem. When next attempting DS stick the Panty & Stocking soundtrack on. Literally impossible to rage at anything when that awesomeness is blaring through your headphones XD


Trust me, I played League of Legends solo ranked for three games in a row with that music on and I didn't get annoyed once... True magic indeed.

Though DS has nothing on Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 in terms of rage. The most recent game made me actually physically sick due to high concentrations of Salt. Skullgirls is so mellowed out in comparison it's amazing

Random Skullgirls Metagame bit below, if anyone's interested XD

Spoiler

Just a shame that my badass 55 hit Valentine combo utilising her hitstun increase syringe turns out to be hit really hard by damage scaling. I even went out of my way to change up the loops to avoid the Infinite Detection System as well. One hit kill combos seem to be nonexistent, thank god. Either the game is more based around several resets or people just haven't figured out how to punish/notice dropped combos yet (mash on super seems to be popular)

Seriously the amount of times i've lost 90% of my health by getting stuck in a corner and just dropping out of combos then instantly getting caught up in one again about 5 times in a row is getting really high

Though the sheer badassery of it makes quite a few people just ragequit on the spot without looking at the less than epic damage XD

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Oh and I don't mind the challenge when it's actually fair. The people who say every death is fair are talking out of their collective assholes. Snipers. Anor Londo. Fuck!

Funny, because all you need is a greatshield and the snipers are nothing.

As for respawning enemies, they have the opposite effect on me. They brutally break my suspension of disbelief over their knee with a sickening crack. I cannot take any setting seriously where hitting a checkpoint or leaving the area causes that guy who I just kicked off a cliff to magically reappear unharmed in the exact same place.

Are you now complaining about lack of realism in a game where you play the "chosen undead", have to slay a scaleless dragon, a twenty foot tall fat guy, a god of death made out of corpses, a minotaur demon, a cat-girl with a scythe, a dude who lives like a woman and has snakes for legs....

,

The list goes on.

Funny, since I thought Dark Souls had a "any build is viable" thing going on... If I absolutely need a greatshield (and the right stats to wield one) then that kinda throws that out the bloody window doesn't it?

That one particular section just has "X amount of luck required to continue" painted all over it. Trying to kill the sniper in your way? Oh shot in the back! Trying to get into sword range? Oh stun locked by arrows until you run out of stamina and go right the fuck off the roof.

Try to dodge anything? Death by gravity.

Annnnnnnd then there's the soul crushing walk back to the start of the area. The obnoxious lift, the far too long bridge and epic stairs start to get less impressive and more cunting annoying after you have to traipse through them 5 times in a row.

This is why I dropped the game for five months straight back in the Parish. Figure I may have to make it ten months before I pick it back up again this time.

Or you could just run past the arrows. Dragonslayer Arrows are not fast, in movement speed nor firing speed. All you have to do is run. Get up to the top and block the Knight walking on the ledge. Even if you don't have a greatshield, he practically kills himself trying to hit you.(at least in all my experiences, he walks right off the ledge as he attempts to run at me on that narrow ledge) As for the other knight, block him, too. He leaps to his own death trying to dodge the swing you didn't take.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

I preferred the atmosphere, and level design of Demons Souls much better. It felt more coherent to me, and less repetitive compared to Dark Souls.

Plus Demons Souls, even with how difficult it was, it still felt beatable and fair. Dark Souls was far too hard for it's own good most of the time.

I for one was incredibly frustated with Demon's Souls, only to be incredibly satisfied once I got the knack out of it.