I think I may technically be a traitor.

[Epitome]

Hey all, This thread will mainly apply to Irish folk but Europeans it may be interesting to as you are directly affected.

I just got back a couple hours ago form seeing district 9 with a few friends. So we are in the car on the way home and the topic of the second Lisbon Treaty referendum came up. Now I am a yes supporter and very informed on the Treaty as I had a college project on it and studied EU framework this year, so I said that i was voting yes and that it was best for the future of the country and the Union.

I was met by the stares of three no voters.... So logically i asked them why they are votng no, one is voting no because his parents told him to (hes 20) and the other two are voting no because we have been asked to vote a second time and i quote "Shudve took NO as a fucking answer 1st time". Now lets leave aside the modifications to the Treaty this time and the fact the no side won mainly on a smear campaign based on lies of European armies and forced abortions and just consider that these three people are voting not based on the treaty and its potential gains/losses for the country, but on an irrational "because i feel like it attitude".

One actually said he wont vote for it because the government want him to, (atm the main party has a piss poor popularity rating). But this Treaty is far more important than local politics, our Yes or No will directly affect 400,000,000 people. He wants to punish our main party despite the fact that every other main party supports a Yes vote aswell. Bar SF and they are a bunch of uninformed thugs dressed in suits trying to play politics. I had vainly hoped that the yes side this time was going to win based on exposing the no's previous lies and explaining the consequences of a no vote, but this "we have to vote twice" thing is going to lose it for us again and I hate that. Is it wrong i think democratic powers for my people should be suspended from people who do not inform themselves on an issue before voting?

 

[Emphraim]

I often wonder how some people can be considered full citizens every day.

Sadly, while I would like idiots to be banned from voting and political matters, that would give the right to choose who votes to the government and it's a slippery slope from there as they would be able to pick who votes and who doesn't, essentially forming a dictatorship.

 

[Mookie_Magnus]

First of all... Wall-o-text, fix it.
Secondly, what exactly is this treaty about? I assume since you said the Irish Escapists, it is something happening over there, but us Americans and the Aussies would possibly like to answer, but we can't if we don't know what it's about.

To answer your question... No, and yes.

It's not wrong to think about it. Thinking is the one thing that is always acceptable. You can think about anything you damn-well please, and no one can do shit about it. Now... actually suspending the voting rights of people who don't know why or what to vote for is not okay. Sure, they might not know what they're voting on, and just following tradition or propaganda, but that's how politics works.

 

[Epitome]

First of all... Wall-o-text, fix it.
Secondly, what exactly is this treaty about? I assume since you said the Irish Escapists, it is something happening over there, but us Americans and the Aussies would possibly like to answer, but we can't if we don't know what it's about.

To answer your question... No, and yes.

It's not wrong to think about it. Thinking is the one thing that is always acceptable. You can think about anything you damn-well please, and no one can do shit about it. Now... actually suspending the voting rights of people who don't know why or what to vote for is not okay. Sure, they might not know what they're voting on, and just following tradition or propaganda, but that's how politics works.

Okay the EU is a partnership of most if the main countries in Europe. Now at its inception it had 6 members , it currently has 27. But the framework was never updated as countries joined, so everything is pretty crowded at the minute. The treatys main purposes are to streamline by joining the 3 pillars, extending QMV to certains areas so as to diminish number of vetoes(you can imagine when only one in 27 doesnt want something it stops how often progress gets made), to make for greater cross border policing and crisis response ie. fighting cross border crime like people traffiking and such, and it awards the Charter of fundamentral rights teh hughest legal status so all countries must comply with citizens birthrights. (EU laws trump local government laws). Also all meetings of ministers of state would be forced to be held in public and transcripted so as to increase transparency. And the European parliment(elected) is granted greater legislative powers to match the Commisioners (appointed).

 

[lostclause]

Secondly, what exactly is this treaty about?

From what I know, the treaty is intended to give more powers to the EU parliament and reform it (such as having an elected president instead of rotating the position). There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the basics. All Europeans should know about it but the Irish more so because they are the only ones who are required to vote on it (due to their constitution, other countries don't have to have a referendum on treaties).

No you're not a traitor unless you believe that an attack on democracy is an attack on the nation by default. I'd say no mainly because democracy and nationalism are quite different.

 

[Bladecatcher]

Wow, its so weird to hear someone competently talk about politics. Here in the states, no one dares to start a political conversation for fear of an angry mod of southerners toting "Obamaunism" signs and shouting phrases like "kill the bill" at you until your eyeballs explode. Although, i imagine it cant be too different in Ireland, what with the domestic terrorism and all.

But that being said, id have to say that your heart is in the right place, (wishing people were more informed)but you cant take democratic power away from people, because its only a small step from there to a dictatorship. Dont get me wrong, i have a very low tolerance for stupid, and i would love to see people like the "Birthers" have their voting rights taken away, and then be wiped from the face of the earth. (and if you dont know who the "Birthers" are, your better off.) But i know this isnt fair, and im sure i look just as insane to them.

But i guess part of the solution lies with the media- they need to be held accountable for all the bs they spew, and realize that when they perpetuate party-politics propaganda, they anre basically turning themselves into journalistic whores. But in the words of Ron White, you cant fix stupid.

 

[lostclause]

Wow, its so weird to hear someone competently talk about politics.

If you're interested, join this group:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Reasoned-political-discussion
It's been quiet for a while but that's mainly because we need a few more people.

 

[SadakoMoose]

I'm not entirely Irish, but my Great Grandfather went to school with Amond Valera, and that alone qualifies me.
You're only a traitor...if you shack up with some English floozy...

 

[Epitome]

Wow, its so weird to hear someone competently talk about politics. Here in the states, no one dares to start a political conversation for fear of an angry mod of southerners toting "Obamaunism" signs and shouting phrases like "kill the bill" at you until your eyeballs explode. Although, i imagine it cant be too different in Ireland, what with the domestic terrorism and all.

But that being said, id have to say that your heart is in the right place, (wishing people were more informed)but you cant take democratic power away from people, because its only a small step from there to a dictatorship. Dont get me wrong, i have a very low tolerance for stupid, and i would love to see people like the "Birthers" have their voting rights taken away, and then be wiped from the face of the earth. (and if you dont know who the "Birthers" are, your better off.) But i know this isnt fair, and im sure i look just as insane to them.

But i guess part of the solution lies with the media- they need to be held accountable for all the bs they spew, and realize that when they perpetuate party-politics propaganda, they anre basically turning themselves into journalistic whores. But in the words of Ron White, you cant fix stupid.

I watched a high-larious youtube vid of some conservative explaining why Obamas poster when running for office was a iconographic masterpiece explaining how he is going to destroy american freedoms. I know what a birther is and I pity you having to tolerate them. I will say this, the rest of the world, (myself included) for the most love Obama, even the haters go " He's shit, but a step up from Bush" lol Oh and the Tea Party, wheres a terrorist attack when you need one?.... Okay thats a lil cold but still.

Wow, its so weird to hear someone competently talk about politics.

If you're interested, join this group:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/groups/view/Reasoned-political-discussion
It's been quiet for a while but that's mainly because we need a few more people.

Joined I look forward to reasoned discussion, serious it is so so so hard to try hold a coherant debate because as soon as somebody feels they have lost upperhand they resort to slogans and name calling etc

 

[Chrinik]

Meh, as an EU member who isn´t allowed to vote on such things (since the government feels that we pesky citizens couldn´t probably grasp the context of such vote and would therefore hinder it´s forthcomming/denial whatever...), I am not interested in EU wide politics.
They don´t let me in on their party so why the fuck should i care, doesn´t make and goddamn difference eccept maybe i would acuire citizen ship in every country in the EU and travel there and vote.

I just want to see one thing: see, you said EU right Trumps local right, but does this ever get enforced?
Because Games here are rated much higher then the EU commission does, but still get banned from stores or sold as extremely cut.
Why can´t we just throw generalized laws across the EU that would make the whole EU equal exept for language, wouldn´t that be nice?
Oh wait, then the british would come and demand their independancy or some stuff, like they did with the Euro and the paying of taxes...

 

[Vuljatar]

The local governments should not give up their control of their own laws. The bigger a government is, the harder it is for the actual citizenry to have effective representation.

 

[Epitome]

The local governments should not give up their control of their own laws. The bigger a government is, the harder it is for the actual citizenry to have effective representation.

I may have explained the EU laws trumping national laws thing badly. They dont make specific laws for countries and never would, ie the netherlands smoke weed, eutanasia is legal in certain countries, abortion is illegal in Ireland. There is no attempt to stifle people like that. The laws are there to prevent basic rights violations , for example if teh BNP gets into power in teh UK they cant pass an "immigrant tax", or if you tried to pass a law banning women from the vote. Remembering that the EU has expanded to far reaches now, even Turkey (Muslim law) wants to join.

One needs to remember that the Irish people have a precedent in voting against European treaties the first time. The Nice Treaty was another example of this scenario, and one where the Irish government did a bit of rewording of their campaign and it passed through the second time. The problem is that the government has done an atrocious job of explaining these European treaties, which would be the reason that such smear campaigns from the opposition side have worked effectively. Had the government competently explained the treaty the first time, clearly indicating where it would advantage the Irish populace, they might have got a better response - although that might have been difficult, considering the reputation of the treaty's incomprehensibility.

As for my own original "No" vote, it was done on the knowledge that the treaty would be beneficial for the Irish people, but the opinion that it had been explained in an appalling manner by the "Yes" supporters, and the recognition that the treaty referendum would probably be re-run in the circumstance of a "No" vote. It was a cavalier attitude, but one that worked out somewhat - it embarrassed a government that I didn't vote for, and led them to have to assure the Irish people that it wouldn't have any references to the elimination of Irish neutrality or forced abortions or what not.

I believe that, based on current predictions of voting trends, that the referendum will probably be narrowly approved this time. The people voting "No" might be more indignant, but they're led by a group largely consisting of nutcases and very suspect people (Declan Ganley is supposed to have connections to Boeing and Northrop Grumman, and the formation of the EU's Rapid Response Force could harm his own business), and the "Yes" supporters are probably more numerous. As for me, I think I made my point the first time, and currently, don't plan to reject the treaty a second time.

I really really REALLY hope there are more of you out there this time. I made the mistake of youtubing "yes for lisbon" to see of anybody was putting forward the arguement properly and then read the comments. Serious the people are no better than the Birthers in the States. Look at Joe higgins sure who actually posted a made up version of a paragraph on his website to skew its meaning towards what he wanted it to say.

 

[Therumancer]

Well, speaking from an American perspective I tend to agree with you to an extent. I also feel there should be some limitations placed on who can vote. The slippery slope of goverment power is a very slippery one however. To do it, you'd pretty much need to come up with a list of objective standards that need to be met.

Like for example if given the question "What is the dividing line between the two major political partys in The United States" probably 90% of the people couldn't answer it. All of the various political arguements aside the basic issue is that the Democrats believe in a single all powerful Federal goverment that controls everything (ie very weak or non existant state and local goverments) and The Republicans do not, and feel power should be based more on the states and towns.

Of course the education system being what it is, I'd imagine a lot of minorities would wind up failing, and then people would scream "racism" and how it's a conspiricy to prevent "colored" folks from voting, rather than minorities being encouraged to educate themselves better so they could pass.

I'd also include objective standards like being able to speak, read, and write english, and probably some very basic general knowledge stuff.

You really couldn't do anything beyond that because it would get scewed. A very basic set of universal standards, and a simple pass/fail system.

I do understand why we do not do this however, and yes it could be easily abused without some major watchdogging.

 

[Epitome]

Well, speaking from an American perspective I tend to agree with you to an extent. I also feel there should be some limitations placed on who can vote. The slippery slope of goverment power is a very slippery one however. To do it, you'd pretty much need to come up with a list of objective standards that need to be met.

Like for example if given the question "What is the dividing line between the two major political partys in The United States" probably 90% of the people couldn't answer it. All of the various political arguements aside the basic issue is that the Democrats believe in a single all powerful Federal goverment that controls everything (ie very weak or non existant state and local goverments) and The Republicans do not, and feel power should be based more on the states and towns.

Of course the education system being what it is, I'd imagine a lot of minorities would wind up failing, and then people would scream "racism" and how it's a conspiricy to prevent "colored" folks from voting, rather than minorities being encouraged to educate themselves better so they could pass.

I'd also include objective standards like being able to speak, read, and write english, and probably some very basic general knowledge stuff.

You really couldn't do anything beyond that because it would get scewed. A very basic set of universal standards, and a simple pass/fail system.

I do understand why we do not do this however, and yes it could be easily abused without some major watchdogging.

On an aside, I actually have always had a serious problem with your two party setup in the states. for all teh cries of "Soclialism is communism[its not]" you are only the loss of one party shy of being a one party state. Tell me are there others who simply cannot pick up the momentum or finance, or do the two parties have a controlling interest in keeping it that way? Because for me no right minded human is all teh way liberal or conservative on anything. Its possible to say, oppose the war and gay marrige but come voting time which way do you vote? Yeah i can imagine when the Deep South lost 50% of the vote they would be pissed. I may be exaggerating but I have seen their standardised scores :O

 

[Bigeyez]

Whats sad is that I would say a very large majority of people my age 18-20's vote exactly like that. I know people who go to voting booths and vote for whoevers name sounds cooler.../cry

Then you have the group of people here in the states that only get their information from one source and believe whatever is told to them...I have a cousin thats the perfect example of this. She watches nothing but Fox News and even though things like national healthcare would benefit her greatly (she has none, can't afford any, and honestly is dirt poor) she votes against them because thats what Fox tells her to do.

 

[thisisyournamenow]

it was wise of the irish (my self included) to get some real answer the first time round and to change the treaty.(if it has been changed) however i do see the pros of making the EU stronger.

vote yes

 

[ReincarnatedFTP]

On an aside, I actually have always had a serious problem with your two party setup in the states. for all teh cries of "Soclialism is communism[its not]" you are only the loss of one party shy of being a one party state. Tell me are there others who simply cannot pick up the momentum or finance, or do the two parties have a controlling interest in keeping it that way? Because for me no right minded human is all teh way liberal or conservative on anything. Its possible to say, oppose the war and gay marrige but come voting time which way do you vote? Yeah i can imagine when the Deep South lost 50% of the vote they would be pissed. I may be exaggerating but I have seen their standardised scores :O

Not Therumancer, but I am an American, so I'll give my view.
The two parties are, for the most part, corporately promoted, and national debate is usually only framed as Democrat vs Republican, and they receive all the media focus.
If the Republican Party keeps failing though, there is the Green Party, and the Libertarian Party, which could actually stand a chance to win some federal offices. Of course there are many other parties as well,(the US does have a communist party and various other libertarian/more liberal/more conservative parties) but alot of them will never get beyond the local realm.

As far as opposing the war, the Democrats voted for the Iraq War resolution, and they'll hardly do anything for gay rights, it's basically the equivalent of the Republicans telling the religious right they'll ban abortion when they're in power, just false promises.Hell, just a few weeks ago a gay anarchist vandalized a Democratic HQ because he was so tired of their bullshit.

America doesn't really have a liberal party per se, but we do have a couple of liberal politicians on the federal level, if I recall correctly, it's Dennis Kucinich and Bernie Sanders.

 

[HerrBobo]

I am from The Republic of Ireland. I will be voting no on the treaty. Why? Because I have already voted on it. I should not be made vote again.

 

[Epitome]

I am voting no cause

the larger countries within Europe will get a bigger vote, it's based on percentage of population, Germany's population accounts for 17% so they get that voting percentage, Ireland makes up just 0.8%, the argument is that all the smaller countries can amalgamate their voting percentage which in theory gives Ireland 15% vote, the yes side will not tell you however that the Lisbon treaty has no compulsion or legal right to accept the vote of a joined vote so our 0.8% vote is worthless, this is supposed to give us a stronger voice in Europe?

all eu law will take primacy over Irish law, this will be the last referendum on any European debate if it's ratified, all these promises and guarantees the yes camp keep talking about are pointless and meaningless, all the eu has to do in 6 months time is change the law regarding them and we will have no say in the matter.

Just think about what your saying for a second. The Irish constiution which supersceedes EU law requires a referendum for any of teh changes your talking about, so even If and i syress teh if because they wouldnt do it, they tried to force laws on us we didnt liek we would still have final say. And even if we didnt who would enforce these laws? The policeserve this state not anybody else.

Secondly there are safeguards that prevent larger population states weilding too much power, for a vote to pass requires 4 or more yes countries voting yes that make up 55% percent of the votes representing 65% of the population of the EU. Essentially a two-thirds majority is required so no single state can ever manipulate the system. That includes us! We also have the exact same amount of power in teh Commission as Germany, France so our lil 0.8% have the same voice as Germanys 17%. Though we may lose our commisioner if we vote NO and tehn we will have No say in lawmaking in a pissed off Europe. We shouldnt be able to tell the rest of Europe what to do like they dont tell us, if they want greater coordination fighting cross-border crime why are you opposed? Nobody asked you to do shit. You would swear the EU were planning forced conscription. Also no mechanism for leaving the EU currently exists, so if you dont like anything now your stuck with it, if the people dont like the way things are after Lisbon then you can leave. Though anybody who would vote to be a small country with no natural resources sat between two trading supergiants has no idea of foreign competition.

 

[Epitome]

I am from The Republic of Ireland. I will be voting no on the treaty. Why? Because I have already voted on it. I should not be made vote again.

You represent everything that is WRONG with Democracy, intelligence and common sense. How about thinking on your own and deciding if you like the Treaty or not instead of a kneejerk reaction because they fixed what was wrong with it the last time. What do you expect them to do. Okay lads they didnt like that one lets give up on making laws all together? You are no better than a petulant child stomping their feet, i cannot change your mind i know this because i have met many of your kind, so i will simply tell you that i believe you are a fool and that alot of people will feel the effects of what your planning to do and your too close minded to realise it.