I think I may technically be a traitor.

[Epitome]

I am voting no cause

the larger countries within Europe will get a bigger vote, it's based on percentage of population, Germany's population accounts for 17% so they get that voting percentage, Ireland makes up just 0.8%, the argument is that all the smaller countries can amalgamate their voting percentage which in theory gives Ireland 15% vote, the yes side will not tell you however that the Lisbon treaty has no compulsion or legal right to accept the vote of a joined vote so our 0.8% vote is worthless, this is supposed to give us a stronger voice in Europe?

all eu law will take primacy over Irish law, this will be the last referendum on any European debate if it's ratified, all these promises and guarantees the yes camp keep talking about are pointless and meaningless, all the eu has to do in 6 months time is change the law regarding them and we will have no say in the matter.

Just think about what your saying for a second. The Irish constiution which supersceedes EU law requires a referendum for any of teh changes your talking about, so even If and i syress teh if because they wouldnt do it, they tried to force laws on us we didnt liek we would still have final say. And even if we didnt who would enforce these laws? The policeserve this state not anybody else.

Secondly there are safeguards that prevent larger population states weilding too much power, for a vote to pass requires 4 or more yes countries voting yes that make up 55% percent of the votes representing 65% of the population of the EU. Essentially a two-thirds majority is required so no single state can ever manipulate the system. That includes us! We also have the exact same amount of power in teh Commission as Germany, France so our lil 0.8% have the same voice as Germanys 17%. Though we may lose our commisioner if we vote NO and tehn we will have No say in lawmaking in a pissed off Europe. We shouldnt be able to tell the rest of Europe what to do like they dont tell us, if they want greater coordination fighting cross-border crime why are you opposed? Nobody asked you to do shit. You would swear the EU were planning forced conscription. Also no mechanism for leaving the EU currently exists, so if you dont like anything now your stuck with it, if the people dont like the way things are after Lisbon then you can leave. Though anybody who would vote to be a small country with no natural resources sat between two trading supergiants has no idea of foreign competition.

Okay after reading your post really slowly due to spelling mistakes, you seem to be putting words in my mouth of course there are things in the treaty i like but when i look at the over all view i don't agree with it.

Ireland has the greatest democracy in Ireland we can actually say yes and no even if the government doesn't agree and i don't want to give that up.

Sorry I was typing in "rant" mode. we can and still will always be able to say no, it is written into the constitution. what is teh overall view you dont like, teh world is shrinking we cant fight that, resources will get scarcer as tensions increase, now i know i want to be part of a large bargainning power that is effective, if we get left put in the cold what will happen to us? Think this recession is bad, think when all whats left of investment leaves cause we have nothing left to offer.

 

[Epitome]

LOL, rant mode i like that. It one of those endless discussion's i have spent hour's looking at both sides of the argument asking people from both sides there view and asking question's. I have made my decision and of course if the end result is a Yes i ain't going to cry and ***** about it although it just looks like the bullies would of won then.

You see that I can respect, I have no problem with you voting no, because you understand what you are being asked to vote on and have made a decison. That is your right and that I have no problem with it. Direct your eyes to post number 22 in this thread. THAT is what i am railing against here.

 

[Epitome]

He wants to punish our main party despite the fact that every other main party supports a Yes vote aswell. Bar SF and they are a bunch of uninformed thugs dressed in suits trying to play politics.

See? You're being biased as well. Frankly I support Sinn Fein, they share my political views on most topics, mainly the whole democratic socialist issue. Sure they have connections with terrorism but then again so did FF and FG in the 60's. I would say the same if you said something biased about any other party too.

I would vote No but given our current economic difficulties it would be suicide. However voting No because they should have taken No for an answer the first time is a perfectly good reason, it's an absolute flagrant disregard for democracy and I hope Sarkozy and the other neo-liberals pay. And finally, the clause in the treaty about 'obligation to help' other states in a terrorist attack is so vague it could be applied in any number of unscrupulous ways.

So in conclusion, the only way you are better than your friends is you're slightly better informed.

Its SF desire to leave the EU that ranks them as idiots in my book. They have this romantised notion taht Ireland can stand on its own two feet against the world and thats just not how it is. This country would be decimated economically without the EU's cotinued support and even the no voters know this. The who no to lisbon,yes to europe thing shows that.

They can want it to mean whatever they want, hell even if they interpret help as stage a full scale invasion of some country it wont make a jot of difference, we still cannot be forced to do anything unconstitutional, they cant demand soldiers or money from us like. And surely if it happened to us you would be wondering where the help was?

And its the being better informed that im supporting here, voting no without understanding is what happened the first time and thats why we have the second referendum. The issues were poorly explained after the election was on and the no side lied their way to victory thats not how its supposed to work.

 

[Epitome]

LOL, rant mode i like that. It one of those endless discussion's i have spent hour's looking at both sides of the argument asking people from both sides there view and asking question's. I have made my decision and of course if the end result is a Yes i ain't going to cry and ***** about it although it just looks like the bullies would of won then.

You see that I can respect, I have no problem with you voting no, because you understand what you are being asked to vote on and have made a decison. That is your right and that I have no problem with it. Direct your eyes to post number 22 in this thread. THAT is what i am railing against here.

Oh i know drives me fucking nuts when i hear people say that or things like "I am voting no cause i don't understand it" really then do some research, if you don't understand don't vote.

EXACTLY!!!!!! I think people shoudld be forced to abstain if they dont undertstand a vote but, noo letr everybody have a vote. "The best arguement against Democracy is a five munte converstaion with the average voter."

 

[Epitome]

Yo, Europe, I'm really happy for you, and Imma let you finish, but I just got to say US is the best Union there is!

Really serious really as an outsider looking in its a very backward and corrupt place.

Sorry bad joke or maybe good joke in bad taste -_^ not sure.

On topic as not to get warned.

I think the irish are a little hesitant to let another group represent them and manage their decisions.

Not saying I agree. Just saying I can empathize. My wife was born in Ireland and moved to Belgium when she was 10? So shes essentially Dutch/Irish/French. She's saying the same thing. The Irish have been beat on enough times that they are understandably standoffish, but as a Belgian she's personally seen the advantages the EU has.

considering we onlhy recently won independence ( in global terms) you can see why there would be opposition to sending power overseas again, but i see the benefits of the EU and their laws.

 

[WhiteTiger225]

I know it would break the constitution and be a one way trip to dictatorsville, starring Hitler III, but, in America I really half the time think we should have to fill out a questionaire before we are allowed to vote, showing that we understand the topic on which we are voting on. Between Sarah Palin claiming Obama's healthcare plan will let the government murder oldfolk, to Anti-Abortionists (I refuse to call then Pro-Lifers because everyone except serial killers are fucking pro life, it's for or against abortion that the topic is about) voting against the Healthcare plan just because they BELIEVE it will pay for Abortions, even though numerous people, including the president himself, points out that the bill WILL NOT COVER COSTS OF ABORTIONS (And even if it did, it's not like it's forcing you to abort -_- ) I really have to wonder.. Is the world right in claiming America stupid? From what I see if we were playing DnD, all of America would have 20's in all subjects... except wisdom, it seems most people would have a -10. I mean I have seen NUMEROUS intelligent people, yet they rarely use that knowledge and instead follow smear campaigns blindly... Or like Dane Cook.. or both.

 

[Epitome]

LOL, rant mode i like that. It one of those endless discussion's i have spent hour's looking at both sides of the argument asking people from both sides there view and asking question's. I have made my decision and of course if the end result is a Yes i ain't going to cry and ***** about it although it just looks like the bullies would of won then.

You see that I can respect, I have no problem with you voting no, because you understand what you are being asked to vote on and have made a decison. That is your right and that I have no problem with it. Direct your eyes to post number 22 in this thread. THAT is what i am railing against here.

Oh i know drives me fucking nuts when i hear people say that or things like "I am voting no cause i don't understand it" really then do some research, if you don't understand don't vote.

EXACTLY!!!!!! I think people shoudld be forced to abstain if they dont undertstand a vote but, noo letr everybody have a vote. "The best arguement against Democracy is a five munte converstaion with the average voter."

I think a lot of people get put off as well when they talk to a politician or a rep from which ever political party they get treated like a 5 year old, just break it down.

I concur, in the cinema before District 9 was an ad from the new ask the EU webite explaining that the EU had given us the Euro.......... Like we hadnt figured that out by now?

 

[jimborious]

He wants to punish our main party despite the fact that every other main party supports a Yes vote aswell. Bar SF and they are a bunch of uninformed thugs dressed in suits trying to play politics.

See? You're being biased as well. Frankly I support Sinn Fein, they share my political views on most topics, mainly the whole democratic socialist issue. Sure they have connections with terrorism but then again so did FF and FG in the 60's. I would say the same if you said something biased about any other party too.

I would vote No but given our current economic difficulties it would be suicide. However voting No because they should have taken No for an answer the first time is a perfectly good reason, it's an absolute flagrant disregard for democracy and I hope Sarkozy and the other neo-liberals pay. And finally, the clause in the treaty about 'obligation to help' other states in a terrorist attack is so vague it could be applied in any number of unscrupulous ways.

So in conclusion, the only way you are better than your friends is you're slightly better informed.

love how you've phrased that first paragraph as if having terrorist connections is something everyone does from time to time its no big deal right? Well wrong you fucking retard, they didn't just "have connections" to terrorists, they where terrorists.

On topic though if we ever had a referendum over here in Britain, which we were promised by labour which they then backed out of I?d vote no. Partially because the EU bureaucracy is home to some of the most disgusting and accepted corruption in the world and to be honest I don't think it can be fixed unless everything was literally thrown out and all the member nations sat down and drew up a new constitution from scratch, then maybe it could be saved but I doubt it. My other reasoning is that no country should be able to decide or have a say in the laws of any other unless those laws outrageously breach peoples rights like your example of a law passed that denies the vote to women, having said that the Bill of Human Rights is what has given to the ridiculous PC culture that is everywhere today, and most of the most extreme cases have gone before British courts, been rejected only for the case to be pushed over the heads of the British courts, into the EU courts which inevitably rules in favour of the guy who broke his hand on some OAP's face whilst mugging him and wants compensation.

 

[Lord George]

This is why you don't allow people Referendums and why we elect government official's to make sensible decisions.

 

[HerrBobo]

I am from The Republic of Ireland. I will be voting no on the treaty. Why? Because I have already voted on it. I should not be made vote again.

You represent everything that is WRONG with Democracy, intelligence and common sense. How about thinking on your own and deciding if you like the Treaty or not instead of a kneejerk reaction because they fixed what was wrong with it the last time. What do you expect them to do. Okay lads they didnt like that one lets give up on making laws all together? You are no better than a petulant child stomping their feet, i cannot change your mind i know this because i have met many of your kind, so i will simply tell you that i believe you are a fool and that alot of people will feel the effects of what your planning to do and your too close minded to realise it.

Sorry, but it is my opinion that the treaty has not been changeed enough for my liking. It is, more or less the same one as before. I do think that many people did vote no first time because there was not enough info about it and I do belive the it will go through this time. For my own self I am still not happy with it and I resent the fact that they are putting it up for the vote again. Ergo-I shall vote no.

It is a shame you had to be insulting in your post. My opinion is as valid as your own and calling me a fool only serves to bring your own intelligence into question.

 

[similar.squirrel]

I'm not technically an Irish citizen [lack the 900euro required to become one], so I can't vote.

But I do find this overwhelming antipathy towards the Treaty very, very annoying. It's the equivalent of, say, an entire concert venue being changed because one person happens to dislike the colour scheme.
And from what I've seen, most of the No-supporters appear to be far-right Catholics.

 

[Epitome]

I am from The Republic of Ireland. I will be voting no on the treaty. Why? Because I have already voted on it. I should not be made vote again.

You represent everything that is WRONG with Democracy, intelligence and common sense. How about thinking on your own and deciding if you like the Treaty or not instead of a kneejerk reaction because they fixed what was wrong with it the last time. What do you expect them to do. Okay lads they didnt like that one lets give up on making laws all together? You are no better than a petulant child stomping their feet, i cannot change your mind i know this because i have met many of your kind, so i will simply tell you that i believe you are a fool and that alot of people will feel the effects of what your planning to do and your too close minded to realise it.

Sorry, but it is my opinion that the treaty has not been changeed enough for my liking. It is, more or less the same one as before. I do think that many people did vote no first time because there was not enough info about it and I do belive the it will go through this time. For my own self I am still not happy with it and I resent the fact that they are putting it up for the vote again. Ergo-I shall vote no.

It is a shame you had to be insulting in your post. My opinion is as valid as your own and calling me a fool only serves to bring your own intelligence into question.

I was insulting because my very first post was to critise people who vote with no understanding of te issues. If you indeed do not liek teh treaty and what it does tehn by all means vote no. But voting because you shouldnt have to vote again is a retarded arguement, and you you made it sound liek you supported. From your original post you seemed to say you were voting no ONLY because you didnt think you should have to vote twice and displayed no comprehension of the issues at stake.

 

[HerrBobo]

I am from The Republic of Ireland. I will be voting no on the treaty. Why? Because I have already voted on it. I should not be made vote again.

You represent everything that is WRONG with Democracy, intelligence and common sense. How about thinking on your own and deciding if you like the Treaty or not instead of a kneejerk reaction because they fixed what was wrong with it the last time. What do you expect them to do. Okay lads they didnt like that one lets give up on making laws all together? You are no better than a petulant child stomping their feet, i cannot change your mind i know this because i have met many of your kind, so i will simply tell you that i believe you are a fool and that alot of people will feel the effects of what your planning to do and your too close minded to realise it.

Sorry, but it is my opinion that the treaty has not been changeed enough for my liking. It is, more or less the same one as before. I do think that many people did vote no first time because there was not enough info about it and I do belive the it will go through this time. For my own self I am still not happy with it and I resent the fact that they are putting it up for the vote again. Ergo-I shall vote no.

It is a shame you had to be insulting in your post. My opinion is as valid as your own and calling me a fool only serves to bring your own intelligence into question.

I was insulting because my very first post was to critise people who vote with no understanding of te issues. If you indeed do not liek teh treaty and what it does tehn by all means vote no. But voting because you shouldnt have to vote again is a retarded arguement, and you you made it sound liek you supported. From your original post you seemed to say you were voting no ONLY because you didnt think you should have to vote twice and displayed no comprehension of the issues at stake.

Hmmmmm, In was in a bit of a rush when I posted the first time. I guess I could see how you think that.

 

[Pimppeter2]

I don't know anything about the treaty, but your friends have every right to vote for whatever reason.

 

[Epitome]

Hmmmmm, In was in a bit of a rush when I posted the first time. I guess I could see how you think that.

My problem is not with people who support a no vote, tahts their rigth. Its with people who support a no vote because they are uniformed ( i actually saw a VOTE NO IF YOU DONT KNOW) slogan, who are voting to punish the government,Which to me is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Every major party and the main Trade Union in Ireland urge a yes vote bar SF.... And SF policies are not based in reality. And people who are voting no because they have been asked twice, ignoring ho important this Treaty is.

 

[Epitome]

I don't know anything about the treaty, but your friends have every right to vote for whatever reason.

Even if they have been lied to about the issues? as an extreme example if i told you we were voting to protect jobs, when what was really going to happen was rounding up and executing immigrants. would you still be intitled to vote yes?

 

[Pimppeter2]

I don't know anything about the treaty, but your friends have every right to vote for whatever reason.

Even if they have been lied to about the issues? as an extreme example if i told you we were voting to protect jobs, when what was really going to happen was rounding up and executing immigrants. would you still be intitled to vote yes?

My point still stands. They might have dumb/unreasonable reasons, but they still have the right to make the decision they want.

 

[Plazmatic]

some one better give a clear less vage explanation of this new law. Otherwise its a deffinate no to the law. Jees your explinations are more vague than any politions answer.

 

[Epitome]

I don't know anything about the treaty, but your friends have every right to vote for whatever reason.

Even if they have been lied to about the issues? as an extreme example if i told you we were voting to protect jobs, when what was really going to happen was rounding up and executing immigrants. would you still be intitled to vote yes?

My point still stands. They might have dumb/unreasonable reasons, but they still have the right to make the decision they want.

But thats not how teh system works. democracys are based on peopel deciding what they want and voting yes or no, the people here literally dont knwo what they want?

 

[Plazmatic]

I suggest some one state the positives and negatives to this law thing,