I wanna talk about Lootboxes

[Gergar12_v1legacy]

They are trying to AB test you.

A. Will you accept this money-making scheme?
B. No okay here is this one?

A. DLC?
B. Microtransactions?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

In actual gambling there's always the chance of "turning it around" and recouping your losses. With loot boxes there's no such thing, especially in Overwatch. There's no recouping the money that you spent on the boxes, you can't make that money back therefore loot boxes are an exact logical calculation of how much you're willing to spend on the possibility of gaining something you want. There's nothing driving you continue spending your money other than your own stupidity at the fact that you prize a virtual item so highly.

Gambling in a casino might be just as toxic a behavior, but it's a hell of a lot more logical.

The virtual item has value to the person, equivalent to some amount of money. I don't think this is a substantial difference. They still exploit the same compulsive behaviour, which explains why people do it.

I think it is a substantial difference. When you're gambling for actual money that money has a specific value (the exact value of said money). When you're opening loot boxes, specially for items that you can't sell or trade (like in Overwatch), those items have no set monetary value. Whatever value they have is the value that a specific individual places on them, and each person is different. So if you value a virtual item that has no real world value more than things that do have real value then that's your own problem.

 

[Silvanus]

I think it is a substantial difference. When you're gambling for actual money that money has a specific value (the exact value of said money).

Yet gambling does not actually give you that monetary value. It gives you a chance, which does not have a set monetary value.

When you're opening loot boxes, specially for items that you can't sell or trade (like in Overwatch), those items have no set monetary value. Whatever value they have is the value that a specific individual places on them, and each person is different. So if you value a virtual item that has no real world value more than things that do have real value then that's your own problem.

The same could be said of placing the chance of greater reward above the actual value of what you're risking when you gamble, though.

Gambling has nothing to do with set monetary values, because possibilities have no set monetary values. It has everything to do with risk and the compulsive behaviour it exploits.

 

[Jamcie Kerbizz]

I think it is a substantial difference. When you're gambling for actual money that money has a specific value (the exact value of said money).

Yet gambling does not actually give you that monetary value. It gives you a chance, which does not have a set monetary value.

When you're opening loot boxes, specially for items that you can't sell or trade (like in Overwatch), those items have no set monetary value. Whatever value they have is the value that a specific individual places on them, and each person is different. So if you value a virtual item that has no real world value more than things that do have real value then that's your own problem.

The same could be said of placing the chance of greater reward above the actual value of what you're risking when you gamble, though.

Gambling has nothing to do with set monetary values, because possibilities have no set monetary values. It has everything to do with risk and the compulsive behaviour it exploits.

To interject you both here. Virtual items value is either a price which someone has to pay for it without being forced to rely on random chance to get it or EV, how many times on average you need to play to get the item you want times how much single 'play' costs.
It has nothing to do with individual preferences. It has all to do with settings of price and probability distribution or alternative source of supply and the price set there.

Problem is that in gambling it is forbidden to screw with individual player chances. In these schemes it is neither controlled or regulated by law.

 

[deadish]

All I have to say is lootboxes are for all intents and purposes gambling and should be regulated and advertised as such.

Odds have to be disclosed and regulated, teens/children should not be allowed to gamble, ... etc.

edit: It's curious that lootboxes are so popular all of a sudden.

The cynic in me suspects that it's because the game industry knows no one will stop them.

Do you think there is even a possibility that the current US administration/US congress is going to start an investigation into the business practices of the gaming industry anytime soon?

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I think it is a substantial difference. When you're gambling for actual money that money has a specific value (the exact value of said money).

Yet gambling does not actually give you that monetary value. It gives you a chance, which does not have a set monetary value.

When you're opening loot boxes, specially for items that you can't sell or trade (like in Overwatch), those items have no set monetary value. Whatever value they have is the value that a specific individual places on them, and each person is different. So if you value a virtual item that has no real world value more than things that do have real value then that's your own problem.

The same could be said of placing the chance of greater reward above the actual value of what you're risking when you gamble, though.

Gambling has nothing to do with set monetary values, because possibilities have no set monetary values. It has everything to do with risk and the compulsive behaviour it exploits.

That is a solid argument, however legally speaking it looks like at least the UK Government agrees with my position that it's not gambling unless the items in question are able to be sold or traded for actual money.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/663.1024832-UK-Government-response-to-petition-on-Lootboxes

If you read through the document it states in section 3.17

By way of example, one commonly used method for players to acquire in-game items is through the purchase of keys from the games publisher to unlock "crates", "cases" or "bundles" which contain an unknown quantity and value of in-game items as a prize. The payment of a stake (key) for the opportunity to win a prize (in-game items) determined (or presented as determined) at random bears a close resemblance, for instance, to the playing of a gaming machine. Where there are readily accessible opportunities to cash in or exchange those awarded in-game items for money or money?s worth those elements of the game are likely to be considered licensable gambling activities.

Then section 3.18 continues:

Additional consumer protection in the form of gambling regulation, is required in circumstances where players are being incentivised to participate in gambling style activities through the provision of prizes of money or money's worth. Where prizes are successfully restricted for use solely within the game, such in-game features would not be licensable gambling, notwithstanding the elements of expenditure and chance.

So basically, if there's no way to sell or trade the items for real money then there isn't a real incentive to "gamble" money on the possibility of getting an item, since there's no possible monetary return. Therefore it's not gambling if the item has no real world value for which it can be exchanged (per the bold section).

Like I said, the way that Blizzard is doing their loot boxes is still scummy, but it's not gambling, and it's the least scummy way of doing the scummy thing. I'm basically fine with it so long as it comes with the added benefit of continued free content updates.

 

[Silvanus]

So basically, if there's no way to sell or trade the items for real money then there isn't a real incentive to "gamble" money on the possibility of getting an item, since there's no possible monetary return. Therefore it's not gambling if the item has no real world value for which it can be exchanged (per the bold section).

Like I said, the way that Blizzard is doing their loot boxes is still scummy, but it's not gambling, and it's the least scummy way of doing the scummy thing. I'm basically fine with it so long as it comes with the added benefit of continued free content updates.

Ahh, I had heard of this statement, but it's good to have the relevant parts right here.

Alrighty, it's not legally gambling. I'd still encourage regulation, though, on the basis that anti-gambling regulation aims to mitigate the harmful risk (addiction, lost money from compulsive behaviour), and that such risk is also present to some degree in loot boxes.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

So basically, if there's no way to sell or trade the items for real money then there isn't a real incentive to "gamble" money on the possibility of getting an item, since there's no possible monetary return. Therefore it's not gambling if the item has no real world value for which it can be exchanged (per the bold section).

Like I said, the way that Blizzard is doing their loot boxes is still scummy, but it's not gambling, and it's the least scummy way of doing the scummy thing. I'm basically fine with it so long as it comes with the added benefit of continued free content updates.

Ahh, I had heard of this statement, but it's good to have the relevant parts right here.

Alrighty, it's not legally gambling. I'd still encourage regulation, though, on the basis that anti-gambling regulation aims to mitigate the harmful risk (addiction, lost money from compulsive behaviour), and that such risk is also present to some degree in loot boxes.

I'm in favor of regulation in the way that China does it where developers/publishers have to disclose the exact drop rates of every item so that people can make an informed decision about whether they want to spend money on a loot box based on the drop rate of the item(s) that they want.

 

[Silvanus]

I'm in favor of regulation in the way that China does it where developers/publishers have to disclose the exact drop rates of every item so that people can make an informed decision about whether they want to spend money on a loot box based on the drop rate of the item(s) that they want.

That would be an extremely good first step, and would go a long way-- but not the whole way-- to assuaging my concerns about the practise.

I would prefer lootboxes simply weren't a thing (outside of some very specific circumstances). People should just be able to get what they want without this manipulative guff.