I Was Betrayed!
- Thread starter Greg Tito
- Start date
I'm still upset that I never got a chance to play a single game of D&D, not because no one was playing it, but because I didn't know what it was back in my childhood. Now it's impossible to find a group of people who would even think of playing it. I guess it's one of those things that I shouldn't worry too much about, seeing as it isn't going to ruin my life by not playing it.
I do agree that games like D&D have the ability to evoke extreme emotions in players (one guy started crying in a game shop while I was looking around because his Dwarf warrior had died to a powerful disease or something), and that is what makes it an icon in games.
I do agree that games like D&D have the ability to evoke extreme emotions in players (one guy started crying in a game shop while I was looking around because his Dwarf warrior had died to a powerful disease or something), and that is what makes it an icon in games.
I've never found a group of people to play with, really. Even among the nerds in high school D&D is still the height of nerdiness... and we need someone with experience to play as a DM.
I have had feelings like that in video games. I've been enraged at a character (I don't remember when...), shocked, triumphant, etc. etc.
I see your point, though. D&D has the capability of interaction between characters that we will NEVER see in video games. (At least, not as long as they require a script)
I have had feelings like that in video games. I've been enraged at a character (I don't remember when...), shocked, triumphant, etc. etc.
I see your point, though. D&D has the capability of interaction between characters that we will NEVER see in video games. (At least, not as long as they require a script)
My group had something like this.
The game started out with our group being mighty heroes, but the wizard of the group, finding a tainted artifact, slowly became corrupt, driven to becoming a Lich. Slowly, he corrupted the rest of the party, my knight of justice becoming a blood-lusting warlord, a lawful cleric into a death worshiper, a sorcerer who believed in helping people soon became an entity of flame only craving power, and a once-honorable rogue into a sexual deviant and rapist, who eventually tried to betray us early on for treasures, so we killed them.
We all combined our talents to slowly conquering the game-world, building an undead army and working to make the wizard immortal so we could be unopposed by any challenger. However, everyone grew ambitious, and we secretly planned to overthrow the wizard in the middle of his transformation, where he would have to stay in meditation. He would be vulnerable!
While my warlord was plowing through the dark legions he once commanded, the sorcerer and cleric confronted the wizard, wielding their own powerful magics. But the wizard was expecting this, and killed the two with furious energies. Battered and wounded, my fallen knight entered, feeling emotions he thought he had long since lost at the sight of his two dead friends. With once-again found righteous fury, my knight, the only one the wizard fully trusted, cut down the spell caster in mid-meditation.
At this, some deity appeared before my knight, telling me that I had stopped a grand evil. However, the damage my character had a hand in was far too great to the land for it to ever naturally become normal once more. We had turned nearly the entire world to a nightmarish blood-and-fire landscape of death and war. And so, my knight called upon the death-god, offering his own, seemingly untouchable soul (my knight refused to ever die, I could make a 2-page list of mortal injuries he saved) in exchange to replenish the land. The death god answered, and accepted the soul, knowing it could not fill out it's end of the bargain, but more than happy to claim such a powerful spirit.
The deity which presented itself before, touched by the tragic sacrifice, shed a single tear however, and from that tear, a wave of creation was born, restoring the entire planet to it's past glory, except for the fact that the existence of our characters were all seemingly erased from existence.
And THAT...was the best campaign we ever had. One full year of awesome sessions. An ultimate tale of falling from grace, ambition, greed, backstabbing, hopelessness, redemption, and in the end, the great feats our characters performed turned out to have never have happened.
The game started out with our group being mighty heroes, but the wizard of the group, finding a tainted artifact, slowly became corrupt, driven to becoming a Lich. Slowly, he corrupted the rest of the party, my knight of justice becoming a blood-lusting warlord, a lawful cleric into a death worshiper, a sorcerer who believed in helping people soon became an entity of flame only craving power, and a once-honorable rogue into a sexual deviant and rapist, who eventually tried to betray us early on for treasures, so we killed them.
We all combined our talents to slowly conquering the game-world, building an undead army and working to make the wizard immortal so we could be unopposed by any challenger. However, everyone grew ambitious, and we secretly planned to overthrow the wizard in the middle of his transformation, where he would have to stay in meditation. He would be vulnerable!
While my warlord was plowing through the dark legions he once commanded, the sorcerer and cleric confronted the wizard, wielding their own powerful magics. But the wizard was expecting this, and killed the two with furious energies. Battered and wounded, my fallen knight entered, feeling emotions he thought he had long since lost at the sight of his two dead friends. With once-again found righteous fury, my knight, the only one the wizard fully trusted, cut down the spell caster in mid-meditation.
At this, some deity appeared before my knight, telling me that I had stopped a grand evil. However, the damage my character had a hand in was far too great to the land for it to ever naturally become normal once more. We had turned nearly the entire world to a nightmarish blood-and-fire landscape of death and war. And so, my knight called upon the death-god, offering his own, seemingly untouchable soul (my knight refused to ever die, I could make a 2-page list of mortal injuries he saved) in exchange to replenish the land. The death god answered, and accepted the soul, knowing it could not fill out it's end of the bargain, but more than happy to claim such a powerful spirit.
The deity which presented itself before, touched by the tragic sacrifice, shed a single tear however, and from that tear, a wave of creation was born, restoring the entire planet to it's past glory, except for the fact that the existence of our characters were all seemingly erased from existence.
And THAT...was the best campaign we ever had. One full year of awesome sessions. An ultimate tale of falling from grace, ambition, greed, backstabbing, hopelessness, redemption, and in the end, the great feats our characters performed turned out to have never have happened.
How does one play a Dwarven mage with a strength of 18?i64ever said:
By throwing alchemist fire, of course.
Flying-Emu, breaking DnD canon since 1993
Yeah, D&D is great. That is IF you have a good DM and players. Sometimes I've been to horrible, HORRIBLE games where there is no plot and everything is illogical. The world is ending, and a superstrong wizard wants us ( a bunch of level 2 characters) to save it. I played a very stupid half-orc, so i didn't ask the question in-game, but out-game, from our DM. "Why does he want to give the quest to us ? Why doesn't he just collect those bloody crystals himself??" The DM just shushed me. And the most depressing part was that no-one even asked it in-game. This lack of in-game thinking ruins the game. And off we went. There never was any reason for why he gave us the quest.
Anyways, back to the betrayal thing: it remembered me how i was the one betraying the party. I played a sneaky, cowardly, but funny elf ranger . The party found an artifact that had some sort of epic spells in it, a book. Since half the world was looking for it, we decided to hid it.At some point we found out how to use it. And of course, my character went to the hiding place the following night, and stole the book. For the greater good, at least that was the idea. Too bad this kinda led to the death of our party a few gaming sessions later. But it was fun using it.
Good times, good times.
Anyways, back to the betrayal thing: it remembered me how i was the one betraying the party. I played a sneaky, cowardly, but funny elf ranger . The party found an artifact that had some sort of epic spells in it, a book. Since half the world was looking for it, we decided to hid it.At some point we found out how to use it. And of course, my character went to the hiding place the following night, and stole the book. For the greater good, at least that was the idea. Too bad this kinda led to the death of our party a few gaming sessions later. But it was fun using it.
Good times, good times.
This episode sounds great in isolation, but I wonder about the basic gameplay mechanics of future sessions in which the player groups loyalties are divided. It might put off the day of reckoning a bit to have some players "pretending" to choose the dark side, but eventually there will need to be a showdown or else logically the group would splinter in-game.
Hell, I've always found it difficult enough when a player group decides to split-up and check two different hallways in a dungeon. The logistics of running warring parties of player characters boggles the mind.
Hell, I've always found it difficult enough when a player group decides to split-up and check two different hallways in a dungeon. The logistics of running warring parties of player characters boggles the mind.
I was pushed to intense emotion twice in good WOD LARP sessions back in college. (The advantage of LARP in the World of Darkness is that it doesn't require any wacky costuming or anything over-the-top, since it's primarily about character interaction, especially the way we played it.)
My first character was the second-in-command of the city, and legitimately felt it would be his to take over when the number-one disappeared. When another pretender took over instead, though, and everyone sided with him, it wasn't just my character that was furious. I could literally feel the anger welling up inside me, to the point that when my character excused himself angrily from the scene to go cool down, it was me as the player doing the same thing. Fun, perhaps, but a little bit scary.
A later character of mine in the same game had to (willingly) kill his mentor, and was understandably distraught about it. I remember actually crying when he had to do the deed.
My first character was the second-in-command of the city, and legitimately felt it would be his to take over when the number-one disappeared. When another pretender took over instead, though, and everyone sided with him, it wasn't just my character that was furious. I could literally feel the anger welling up inside me, to the point that when my character excused himself angrily from the scene to go cool down, it was me as the player doing the same thing. Fun, perhaps, but a little bit scary.
A later character of mine in the same game had to (willingly) kill his mentor, and was understandably distraught about it. I remember actually crying when he had to do the deed.
You can be truly devoted, then discover a greater power that shakes that devotion. A thousand year-old lich that can kill with a mere word (without a saving throw), and repel living creatures in a 5ft radius might very well be a god himself in the eyes of a coward such as Balbus.Argonnosi said:
Come to think of it, Balbus has performed relatively few 'Lawful-only' miracles since his first encounter with the baddest guy in the known world. Finger of Death is meant to be used only in extreme circumstances, and Balbus uses it with incredible frequency. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that using it to kill his henchman can come from a subversive source of evil.
That Balbus thing reminds me a lot of something that just happened in the D&D game I ran. I was setting them up for the final battle against the big bad of the campaign, and suddenly one of my players decided to betray his team (by attacking another player). Unlike the Balbus thing, the rest of my players, who don't look too kindly on traitors, decided to make him the first target in the ensuing battle.
Well, actually, you can. If players are correctly separating in-character knowledge and out-of-character knowledge then you can pull off a betrayal and not actually blow up the session, and actually allow the other players to react in ways that are memorable with respect to their own characters. Forcing the decision upon them is unfair because it violates an implicit trust the *players* had in each other.CaptainCrunch said:
Not the *characters*.
Although I guess it's kinda memorable the first time somebody pulls the "I'm betrayin the party" stunt, I have to say that most of the times I've seen it (and I've seen it many, many, many times), the player in question was just trying to be the focus of attention. And it has recked quite a few groups, DM participation or not, so play it at your peril. It can leave a bad taste in the mouth.
I say it this way: if your character can betray the other characters, discuss this with them beforehand to make sure you don't ruin their fun. Assuming everyone round the table is a mature adult (I know...) then the game can play out without the inevitable PC bloodbath that results from player betrayal.
We never traitored each other in our DnD games because we could barely survive as a team let alone on our own. Our DM made hellish campigns so we fought through those and the story did move us. We really did feel every loss and win and drunken romp at the inn.
Well, one possibility would be to have the rest of the party never find out.sleepykid said:
It's what happened in our low-tech Shadowrun campaign. Our party consisted mostly of characters who gained their first runner experience through a chain of very inconvenient events, such as getting framed for the assassination of some pretty famous scientists at a conference and therefore being forced to lay low for a while. I was playing a Rigger, the teams driver, down in heavy debts from the very start, silvertongued but the kind of guy who'd panic immediately as soon as anyone pointed a gun even roughly in his direction. He was talented, in a way, when it came to hacking, driving or planning a coup, but he negated those talents by drowning them in whiskey. Lots of whiskey, to the party's disdain.
Still, he always had luck (when it came down to dice rolls).
So, one of his fellow comrades in the Shadows was a guy who specialized in extreme sports and was payed a shitload of money for the weirdest stunts by one of the bigger companies. To support him in his business, this company had invested quite a sum in implants, that gave the guy inhuman reflexes (since we were playing low-tech, he was the only player character with any kind of advanced implants). However, the downside to this was that the company was a little bit overprotective of their investment and therefore not really happy that he was regularly involved in illegal activities.
So one day, when the guy went out for a date with his ex-girlfriend, he never came back. Next morning, his best friends (one of his connections) bursts into our hideout gun-in-hand, asking who the hell betrayed him. This caught everyone at the table completely off-guard. Everyone was like "Damn, we've been framed AGAIN", sticking together to try and figure out what happened in the first place, since none of our characters knew at that point. And then, quite a lot of evidence turned up, that someone might indeed have been up to something, like one of the other players finding an envelope filled with more money than any of us had ever seen and hiding it from the rest, the fence who kept terrorizing my character (since he owed him lots of money) turning out to be killed, but, on the other hand, my apartment being completely wasted (that is: even more than before) and such.
In the end, each and every player character seemed to have been hiding something from the others. To some point, it was sheer luck, I have to admit. My plan had been thoughtfully planned and executed, but there are always certain factors that you don't expect. Luckily, some of the other players helped me without realizing it, for example by finding the payment and hiding it.
They never found out who betrayed them.
And my sweet-talking riffraff-rigger somehow managed to convince everyone that it must all have been an incredibly mean set-up, talking them into a daring rescue mission ... betraying the company and finally cashing in double.
Still, even if it's been some time since the event, there's still the possibility that someone might find out. He's been doing good hiding it, so far. In this regard, the whole con was a success. But now I always have to live with the fear that one day, it might blow. And I must say, our GM won't give me an easy time. But this is what makes the whole P&P experience worthwhile. You make your choices, but you have to live with the consequences.
As far as our group is concerned, people appreciated the situation as an experience they couldn't under any circumstances predict and were more thrilled by just playing it out, than searching for the real truth. After the session, they joked about it, threatening each other playfully, but without any real inquiries.
PC-gaming is far from delivering anything near this experience. The potential might be there, but most companies reduce roleplaying to choices like patting somebody's back or stabbing it (twice). The Witcher was the only game so far (at least as I can remember) in which the player's choices actually had real consequences.
I've experienced this... but in a different way.
You see, I was the traitor.
Our party had become heroes in our campaign, which is a Pokemon game based on the Star Wars system. We were living the high life, having a cushy job with the rebel kingdom against the evil Empire, after we had initally joined the empire, then quite literally jumped ship during a naval battle, when one of our characters was seduced by a Kingdra paragon (person who dresses as, and has the same powers of a certain pokemon).
All of that changed when I decided that the only way to solve a puzzle was to place the shadowy demon orb into the altar atop Spear Pillar.
With our party going from Heroes of the Land to A Team of Rebels in a world where Ghost Pokemon rule, and my character going from The Hero in the Siege of the Beach to That Arsehole who ended the world, I quickly became fairly unpopular.
Recently, though, I've been gaining a lot of favor with the party, because my character, who has amazing leadership skills, but rarely likes to pitch in, has been assuming control, and I've been putting out some brilliant tactics.
But, to answer a question, why would players force other players into that situation?
To put it simply, that day leading up to the World Ending game had been stressful for me. It was a long day at work, and I, like my Magmortar Paragon, Ace Fordon, had some fire in my blood. My plan to put the orb into the alter was brought up, and shot down before. This time, while someone else was trying to move a rock, I grabbed the orb, and without warning, put it in the altar. If I had been less angry, our characters would have still heroes, fighting a now-destroyed empire. Now we're just like, to put it in Fallout 3 terms, just another group of wasteland arse-holes.
And why is this?
Because I wanted to solve a puzzle.
(Although, perhaps the closest I came to betraying the party in the game where my title is based off of was when I found a magic staff of evil. My character, completely good at the time, because of his family's code of honor, was tempted to pick it up, so he could purify it later. Instead, he failed his will check, and ended up turning evil. Which was great, since he had such a high skill in convincing people of things (we used to call his Diplomacy "Diplomancy" because it was negotiation to the point of Mind Control), so no one in game could tell he was evil. It ended in a clash between him and his Necromancer uncle, Deadraiser Desol, where he ended up being able to overcome his Dark past, and getting a choice to either purify himself, and gain the Alpha spell set (he had Omega), or succumb to his dark side, and keep Omega. He chose Alpha (you can only have one or the other in Alpha Omega) and that's why he became the Omnimancer, for having known all forms of spells over his entire life)
You see, I was the traitor.
Our party had become heroes in our campaign, which is a Pokemon game based on the Star Wars system. We were living the high life, having a cushy job with the rebel kingdom against the evil Empire, after we had initally joined the empire, then quite literally jumped ship during a naval battle, when one of our characters was seduced by a Kingdra paragon (person who dresses as, and has the same powers of a certain pokemon).
All of that changed when I decided that the only way to solve a puzzle was to place the shadowy demon orb into the altar atop Spear Pillar.
With our party going from Heroes of the Land to A Team of Rebels in a world where Ghost Pokemon rule, and my character going from The Hero in the Siege of the Beach to That Arsehole who ended the world, I quickly became fairly unpopular.
Recently, though, I've been gaining a lot of favor with the party, because my character, who has amazing leadership skills, but rarely likes to pitch in, has been assuming control, and I've been putting out some brilliant tactics.
But, to answer a question, why would players force other players into that situation?
To put it simply, that day leading up to the World Ending game had been stressful for me. It was a long day at work, and I, like my Magmortar Paragon, Ace Fordon, had some fire in my blood. My plan to put the orb into the alter was brought up, and shot down before. This time, while someone else was trying to move a rock, I grabbed the orb, and without warning, put it in the altar. If I had been less angry, our characters would have still heroes, fighting a now-destroyed empire. Now we're just like, to put it in Fallout 3 terms, just another group of wasteland arse-holes.
And why is this?
Because I wanted to solve a puzzle.
(Although, perhaps the closest I came to betraying the party in the game where my title is based off of was when I found a magic staff of evil. My character, completely good at the time, because of his family's code of honor, was tempted to pick it up, so he could purify it later. Instead, he failed his will check, and ended up turning evil. Which was great, since he had such a high skill in convincing people of things (we used to call his Diplomacy "Diplomancy" because it was negotiation to the point of Mind Control), so no one in game could tell he was evil. It ended in a clash between him and his Necromancer uncle, Deadraiser Desol, where he ended up being able to overcome his Dark past, and getting a choice to either purify himself, and gain the Alpha spell set (he had Omega), or succumb to his dark side, and keep Omega. He chose Alpha (you can only have one or the other in Alpha Omega) and that's why he became the Omnimancer, for having known all forms of spells over his entire life)
Wierd.
Nothing new under the sun, but this campaign is very similar in structure to what I have been running for the last few decades. Strange.
Your larger point is well appreciated. I have many theories and thoughts I've posted about the maturation of the gamer leading to a maturation of the game. Games that facilitate playing in character point to a more mature.
One of those statements is, 'If a GM elicits a visceral response, they are doing something right.'
Nice Game. And a nicer segue into what really makes this game unique.
Nothing new under the sun, but this campaign is very similar in structure to what I have been running for the last few decades. Strange.
Your larger point is well appreciated. I have many theories and thoughts I've posted about the maturation of the gamer leading to a maturation of the game. Games that facilitate playing in character point to a more mature.
One of those statements is, 'If a GM elicits a visceral response, they are doing something right.'
Nice Game. And a nicer segue into what really makes this game unique.
I have to tell you that I just finished Dragon Age:Origins recently and ended up losing a valued member of the party. He was with me from the beginning and when I made a decision he could not live with he abandoned me. While I didn't actually cry I was bothered by his decision for several days afterword. If video games fail to invoke emotions in us it is only because the writing quality of the story is poor. Games like DA:O and Bioshock can strike us deeply when written properly.
CaptainCrunch said:
I'm a little disappointed that the you did a do-over. That doesn't have to be the end of anything--well, some characters die, perhaps, but death happens in D&D and we're all used to that, even permanent death.
A chance for a new crop of heroes? A chance for some characters (and some newly rolled ones) to truly experience the dark side and see maybe it's not really for them?
The heroic hook in D&D is quite strong. I've played a character that was slowly becoming more evil, and the things the DM had me do whilst the party was otherwise engaged bothered me a lot. So much so that eventually, I wasn't sorry the character was kicked out of the party as they started to realize just what he was becoming.
But, it was interesting to go down that road for a while and see where it would lead.
You can make a campaign around anything, and recover from anything as long as the players are willing to continue.
Nonetheless, good tale--players are often suspicious (in my experience) of the other players, but very rarely does that ever actually come to fruition in that their suspicions are borne out.
That is so true.
I usually play a barbarian or something similar, not because i think they are cool (which they are, of course), but because i often find myself playing that style. I like the rage idea, it fits me even though i are mere of an stoic warrior that absorb damage most of the time. Its like nerd rage to the third power.
But what im saying is that i often find myself frustrated when my character is in peril or facing any form of "cheap" enemy (in my characters eyes, i.e a wizard hiding behind a golem). and when im about to fling my dice at the DM, i rage, and i rage hard.
and it is so satisfying!
My point is that when you learn your roleplaying style, you stick to it and your character really becomes you, and the feelings of the character becomes your own.
But dont try to make the character a fantasy persona of yourself, don make him/her take the same decisions you would every time.
be greedy if it fits, be suspicious if it fits, decide your character traits and backstory early on, what do they know? are they afraid of any other races like the Drow or Goblins?
Is money, personal power, purity, skills or fame their motive? Do they have any quirks or unusual traits?
if you make a good character, you will have a good time (unless the DM is planing on dropping a castle on you).
I usually play a barbarian or something similar, not because i think they are cool (which they are, of course), but because i often find myself playing that style. I like the rage idea, it fits me even though i are mere of an stoic warrior that absorb damage most of the time. Its like nerd rage to the third power.
But what im saying is that i often find myself frustrated when my character is in peril or facing any form of "cheap" enemy (in my characters eyes, i.e a wizard hiding behind a golem). and when im about to fling my dice at the DM, i rage, and i rage hard.
and it is so satisfying!
My point is that when you learn your roleplaying style, you stick to it and your character really becomes you, and the feelings of the character becomes your own.
But dont try to make the character a fantasy persona of yourself, don make him/her take the same decisions you would every time.
be greedy if it fits, be suspicious if it fits, decide your character traits and backstory early on, what do they know? are they afraid of any other races like the Drow or Goblins?
Is money, personal power, purity, skills or fame their motive? Do they have any quirks or unusual traits?
if you make a good character, you will have a good time (unless the DM is planing on dropping a castle on you).
I think this is a good point to bring up.0over0 said:
We didn't do a do-over because of permanent death. We'd had a lot of permanent death in the campaign so far. Anyone who has read my other material would know I don't believe in softening the blow of death.
What happened is that about 1/3 of the group, including the only surviving founding members of the campaign, indicated they had no interest in playing in an "evil" campaign. This was despite the fact that their PCs could continue to be played, etc. It simply wasn't something that interested them and they felt it was outside the shared agreement of what this campaign was about.
I don't have time to run another campaign, and the gaming group is not large enough to splinter. So I asked the group to vote in secret ballot for one of three options that we'd all agree to: (a) continue the campaign following its new, darker line; (b) end the campaign with "they all lived evilly ever after" and start a new campaign; or (c) re-wind and see what happens with different choices. As the DM, I didn't vote - I let the players decide. The group voted for (c), which told me that they valued each other's friendship and desire to play together more than they did the minor loss in versimilitude froma re-wind. So that's what we did. I then found a way for the events that had occurred to be ret-conned within the game setting (it involved a deck of many things) and we went from there.
Sometimes things happen in a game that can't be resolved in the game because of out-of-game differences of opinion. The best solution in that case is to solve out-of-game differences out-of-game.