id Says Rage on 360 Runs Faster Than PS3, Brings the Ruckus

[v3n0mat3]

If all these other game developers can make 60fps on the PS3, then Id software sure as hell can.

 

[AceDiamond]

Rage still sounds too similar to Fallout 3 for me to buy, sorry id.

Although it's off-topic, after reading the Game Informer cover story about Rage, I no longer think it's ripping off Fallout 3. Mostly because the 1950s motif isn't there, and there's a lot of other differences involved as well.

 

[v3n0mat3]

Wow. This is a first. They don't seem to be able to grasp the PS3's tech. Sorry to all the Rage fans out there.

Is that sarcasm? From what I've heard the PS3 is a pain in the ass to program for. Valve said they had trouble programming games for it, and they where able to make the greatest physics engine ever. Hell even sony says that it's hard to program for followed by a bullshit reason why. The real story being: They wanted to put a blu ray player in their console to one up everyone and that screwed them. Sure the Console hardware itself is much more impressive than the other two consoles, but blu ray which was their selling point ironically became a negative, because the discs read a lot slower and the programming format requires a lot more space to be filled to make everything run smoothly.

Whoa, easy. Put the flamethrower away, I was only expressing my opinion. I don't even know what is, I was just pondering on another developer that says the Ps3 is too hard to develop for, once again.

Surely, being so popular, the people who made this should surely be able to make it run.

Now please, don't pounce on me next time. Your post kinda attacked me. Then again, this has turned into another "lol Sony shot themselves in the foot and they are dckheads" thread, so I'm not surprised someone took offense to my post.

This is indeed what you've come to expect from those xbots

 

[sneak_copter]

Actually, I would'nt say ID is a good "programming" developer.

Let's be honest... IDTech5 demo's aren't very good.

 

[300lb. Samoan]

Coming from Carmack, that's quite a surprise. Makes me wonder just how much of a pain in the neck the PS3 is to develop for.

I'd say if Carmack is having trouble with it, it's gotta be hard. Maybe people will see now why Valve isn't so hot to put their own resources into PS3 production. Most of the source engine has its roots in idtech.

Actually, I would'nt say ID is a good "programming" developer.

Let's be honest... IDTech5 demo's aren't very good.

Maybe not, but id did make its name as a programming company. They made their fortune with the idtech engines. And the idtech5 demos are sort of impressive, just not miles ahead of the competition. Back in the day, the stuff id was doing was so far ahead of the industry it was miraculous. idtech5 isn't going to shine until we see games taking advantage of the super huge textures it can handle, and that's going to mean new graphics cards for a lot of people.

EDIT: Relevant content from IGN - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnBPqrhY3hw
John Carmack talking eight months ago about these very problems. From around 4:20ish on he talks about problems with developing for multiple platforms, and later specifically mentions running at 60hertz on all systems.

 

[Jumplion]

Coming from Carmack, that's quite a surprise. Makes me wonder just how much of a pain in the neck the PS3 is to develop for.

I'd say if Carmack is having trouble with it, it's gotta be hard. Maybe people will see now why Valve isn't so hot to put their own resources into PS3 production. Most of the source engine has its roots in idtech.

I'd say if Carmack says this;

Carmack himself is confident that the PS3 version will shape up in the future. "Everything is designed as a 60 hertz game. We expect this to be 60 hertz on every supported platform," he said. "The work remaining is getting it locked so there's never a dropped frame or a tear, but we're confident that we're going to get that."

Well if anyone can do it, it's John Carmack, right?

Then we should all just shut up and move on no?

As far as we know, Rage is still pretty early in development, and there's plenty of time to optimize the game on all three platforms. I don't seem to recall id ever making a game for the PS3 before (or the 360 for that matter), so we should hardly expect them to be masters of a console they've never worked on over night (just like how VALVe hardly worked at all on the PS3, same situation). People are just overblowing this out of proportion, if Carmack is as much of a god as people say he is, then when Rage is release it shouldn't make any difference.

 

[Zer_]

Coming from Carmack, that's quite a surprise. Makes me wonder just how much of a pain in the neck the PS3 is to develop for.

I'd say if Carmack is having trouble with it, it's gotta be hard. Maybe people will see now why Valve isn't so hot to put their own resources into PS3 production. Most of the source engine has its roots in idtech.

Actually, I would'nt say ID is a good "programming" developer.

Let's be honest... IDTech5 demo's aren't very good.

Maybe not, but id did make its name as a programming company. They made their fortune with the idtech engines. And the idtech5 demos are sort of impressive, just not miles ahead of the competition. Back in the day, the stuff id was doing was so far ahead of the industry it was miraculous. idtech5 isn't going to shine until we see games taking advantage of the super huge textures it can handle, and that's going to mean new graphics cards for a lot of people.

EDIT: Relevant content from IGN - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnBPqrhY3hw
John Carmack talking eight months ago about these very problems. From around 4:20ish on he talks about problems with developing for multiple platforms, and later specifically mentions running at 60hertz on all systems.

I'd just like to note that the terrain texture for the world is 80gb, give or take. In the earliest tech demo, the asian guy's face was a 2048x2048 texture. The biggest aspect of id's Tech5 engine is doing away with tiled textures. Tiled textures are great and all, but for large terrain it suffers significantly.

 

[Jsnoopy]

Damn, what a surprise. A PC developer is finding it difficult to code their game on the PS3. Surely they must be the only developer to have this problem?

 

[Megacherv]

Its easy to understand why it doesn't work as good compared to 360.
It was made for PC/360 first, the codeing, the architecture is based on standard PC/360 design. You can't simply except to put an NES in an Saga and expect it to work.

If game companies want to make multi-platform games, they have to learn from past examples, that any game thats multi-platform, designed to run on the ps3/360 from the get-go is going to work better then if its designed on the pc then the ps3. The archicture for the Ps3 is a oneway street. Ps3 - > pc/360. (or in conjunction) but going pc/360 -> Ps3 does not work.
Ps3 has to put things like phsyics, AI, on the SPE's, The main Processor on the PS3 is a Single Core Processor, which is slightly slower then the 360's 3, 3.0ghz Processors. But the PS3's got 6 useable SPE's that operate at the same speed. Its like trying to run a quad-core optimized program, on a single-core CPU. Thats what they are doing with Rage. It don't work.

In order to make it work, they have to split it up. They have to put some of the proccesses on each SPE, Thats how its meant to work. They can't simply press a button and expect to decompile it to work from 360 to ps3. They litterally have to code it For The Ps3, and going from Ps3 to 360 is so much easier, as it requries far less 'manaual' coding to make it work. Infact, since everythings already split up, they can combine it together to be split onto the 3 Processors of the 360.

I'm suprised though, didn't ID make UT3? Woulda thought they'd have known going from ps3 to 360 = easier then 360 to ps3.

No...Epic did...

It's id's first go at PS3 development, so it's not going to be perfect. As it's been said in Valve issue threads that they can release to the 360 since it's so easy to port from PC to 360.

AT least id are making the effort. Come on John, you can do this! You love a challenge!

 

[Rigs83]

It's not really Carmack's fault that the PS3 version is lagging. Sony intentionally made the PS3 difficult to code for in the belief that it would negatively affect the ability to port games to it's competitors and thus ensuring some exclusivity. Of course the plan backfired when the 360 came out a year ahead and reached a sustainable level of penetration before Sony could get SKU's on the shelves thus inadvertently giving the 360 the edge.

Really, that's about as credible as "Bush/Obama did 9/11". The PS3 forces devs to do a lot of work to parcel the jobs into small units, but there isn't anything in particular about the software engineering which would make the game hard to port. If you really think otherwise, specifics please.

Who does Sony get compared to in developer support these days? Microsoft. Which company has the most experience on earth dealing with and supporting developers? Microsoft.

Where were these conspiracy theories when the PS2 came out? Developers had more trouble with it than they did with the PS3. I'd say the architecture is weirder than the PS3 one.
http://www.bringyou.to/games/PS2.htm

You know what else had weird architecture? Dreamcast. Again, not a peep from the X-Files crowd.

All Sony is doing, then and now, is to do their best to extract as much performance as they can from hardware of certain cost. It sucks for the developers who don't want to learn anything new, and it rocks for the developers who master it and are then able to produce miracles like God of War, Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution, Shadow of the Colossus or Okami on a 300MHz machine with 32MB of RAM.

So you said PS3 ans Dreamcast so I guess you are calling the PS3 the new Dreamcast. Ha ha aha aha!

Kidding aside read some of the words straight from the mouths of Sony's representatives

"Kaz Hirai, CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment, defended the difficulty of programming for the Playstation 3 console.

According to Mr. Hirai, Sony chose not to "provide the 'easy to program for' console that (developers) want, because 'easy to program for' means that anybody will be able to take advantage of pretty much what the hardware can do, so then the question is, what do you do for the rest of the nine-and-a-half years?".

"So it's a kind of--I wouldn't say a double-edged sword--but it's hard to program for," Hirai continued, "and a lot of people see the negatives of it, but if you flip that around, it means the hardware has a lot more to offer."

Full article here:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13506_3-10173656-17.htm

So Sony thinks that making something difficult will make it better, kind of like a suppository that's doused in gasoline, wrapped with barb wire and lit on fire.Uhhhh, I make funny! Plus most of the first gen games for the PS2 sucked, that's why most of the PS2s were used to play "The Matrix" DVD instead. The PS2 was the cheapest DVD player on the market at the time and thus cemented DVD's dominance.

Valve doesn't like to code for the PS3 either:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/92333-Valve-Says-PS3-Complexity-Hinders-Game-Development

and Activision has a bone to pick too:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/6280-Activision-vs-Sony

 

[Rigs83]

It's not really Carmack's fault that the PS3 version is lagging. Sony intentionally made the PS3 difficult to code for in the belief that it would negatively affect the ability to port games to it's competitors and thus ensuring some exclusivity. Of course the plan backfired when the 360 came out a year ahead and reached a sustainable level of penetration before Sony could get SKU's on the shelves thus inadvertently giving the 360 the edge.

Really, that's about as credible as "Bush/Obama did 9/11". The PS3 forces devs to do a lot of work to parcel the jobs into small units, but there isn't anything in particular about the software engineering which would make the game hard to port. If you really think otherwise, specifics please.

Who does Sony get compared to in developer support these days? Microsoft. Which company has the most experience on earth dealing with and supporting developers? Microsoft.

Where were these conspiracy theories when the PS2 came out? Developers had more trouble with it than they did with the PS3. I'd say the architecture is weirder than the PS3 one.
http://www.bringyou.to/games/PS2.htm

You know what else had weird architecture? Dreamcast. Again, not a peep from the X-Files crowd.

All Sony is doing, then and now, is to do their best to extract as much performance as they can from hardware of certain cost. It sucks for the developers who don't want to learn anything new, and it rocks for the developers who master it and are then able to produce miracles like God of War, Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution, Shadow of the Colossus or Okami on a 300MHz machine with 32MB of RAM.

Hey this for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R98qC0fd_1w[/youtube]

Yay!! I figured out how to embed video! Yay! I get to ride in the big bus yayyy!!!!!

 

[Cryo84R]

How do you fuck up a sure thing?
Like this.

 

[JamesCG]

"revealing that the 360 version of the developer's upcoming FPS Rage runs twice as fast on the 360 as it does on the PS3."

Of COURSE the 360 version runs better on the 360! I don't think the 360 version was designed for the PS3

 

[Ushario]

Good work Sony! ID has just announced that the PS3 is more expensive than either PC or XBox to develop for. Not that we didn't already know that. My hope is that developers stop wasting their time on the PS3.

Sony's business plan probably looked good when they decided to make the PS3 difficult to develop for. Its not looking very hot right now.

Edit: Just for those that are screaming about conspiracy theories in regards to Sony making the PS3 difficult to develop for. Sony themselves stated that they made things harder on developers.

 

[Travdelosmuertos]

A guy whose day job is engine technology doesn't call GPUs "rasterizers".

You do know who John Carmack is, right?

I'm fairly sure all current-gen engines are derived from his code. He's the grand daddy of true polygon rendering in gaming engines. I think he knows a thing or two about engine tech.

 

[Jumplion]

Good work Sony! ID has just announced that the PS3 is more expensive than either PC or XBox to develop for. Not that we didn't already know that. My hope is that developers stop wasting their time on the PS3.

Sony's business plan probably looked good when they decided to make the PS3 difficult to develop for. Its not looking very hot right now.

Edit: Just for those that are screaming about conspiracy theories in regards to Sony making the PS3 difficult to develop for. Sony themselves stated that they made things harder on developers.

This is John Carmack, the (alleged) god of programing.
I'd imagine that Rage isn't even halfway completed yet.
id Software has never developed a PS3 game in their entire careers.
As godly as Carmack is with programing, we can't assume they'll be gods of the PS3 overnight.
All he's said is that the CPU or something is about the same, and one is a little slower I believe. Nothing about costs or expensiveness.

Let me highlight one of my favorite points; id Software has never developed a PS3 game in their entire careers.

I find it funny how everyone is trying to put the blame solely on Sony. If Rage is crap on PS3, it should mostly be id's fault hard/new software to work with or not. Obviously, some of it goes to Sony, but we can hardly blame id for having trouble on a platform they've never developed for.

 

[olicon]

I'd say if Carmack is having trouble with it, it's gotta be hard. Maybe people will see now why Valve isn't so hot to put their own resources into PS3 production. Most of the source engine has its roots in idtech.

I can't believe people are surprised about a game built for PC running better on a 360 than PS3.
I don't know much about engines, but what you say really puts a new perspective on why Source games don't run too well on PS3. Clearly, the engine is NOT optimized for PS3's cell architecture, while it is optimized of PC/360-esque processors.

 

[Pendragon9]

Good work Sony! ID has just announced that the PS3 is more expensive than either PC or XBox to develop for. Not that we didn't already know that. My hope is that developers stop wasting their time on the PS3.

Yes. Screw everyone who didn't buy the console I wanted and forget trying to expand to know new technologies. Let's just make a blanket statement about a console that's selling less than the others.

And of course the Ps3 doesn't have a single good game, because they're all wastes of time. Of course.

I apologize, but when did you suddenly become an expert on games?

And if this guy is truly the granddaddy of 3d gaming, he should be able to make this Rage game as fun on any console. I mean, if other people can make it work, I'm pretty sure this guy can do it easy.

The whole "blu ray is an impassible hurdle" excuse only works a few times. They said that about DVDs, and yet we figured those out easy.

Just let them do their work.

And before I'm jumped on and called a PS3 fanboy with fiery hot pokers, just know I'm not trying to say they're wrong. I'm just calling out something odd.