Ideas To Improve Next Elder Scrolls Melee Combat

TheDrunkNinja

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Arnoxthe1 said:
Indeed, it does a huge amount of damage. But when you have an iron dagger or something equally pathetic, you can kiss any chance of a kill goodbye no matter who you're backstabbing. This isn't right. Why can't it work right out of the gate? It doesn't have to work WELL since one is unskilled when they're first starting out but it should work.
Why would I have the desire to work hard for my enchanted dragon-bone dagger when the first hunk of sharp metal I pick up works as well?

I also cry foul at adding Assassin's Creed 3 QTE's where none are needed.
 

skywolfblue

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Arnoxthe1 said:
skywolfblue said:
I'd say no to a QTE. QTE's are shallow, and should never be used to replace primary combat.

Now a slow-mo "choose what you slash" like the Blade Mode from Metal Gear Solid: Revengeance would be nice. You fail to cut their neck (you'll still do some decent damage like 1/4 of their health), but the game slows down for 3 seconds, and you can slash their arm and render them weaponless, or slash their leg and leave them crippled, or crush their throat so they can't call for help.

But more important then backstab, is fixing Stealth gameplay so that it's not so broken. Enemy AI needs to be smarter to actually do some believable "hey our friend just died" checking, and stealth needs to involve more then just crouching, social stealth and smoke bombs would be nice additions.
QTE's have a really bad rep and it's certainly been earned but with my system, QTE's are NOT replacing combat. Not entirely anyway. As long as your Sneak skill is high enough, you won't do a QTE and will automatically kill an opponent. The QTE's are simply a penalty one must take if they try to assassinate a target that's too high a level. Your method leaves stats out and focuses too much on real-time. Stats need to be there in some way or else it's not really an Elder Scrolls game. However, perhaps we can build off of your idea. The main problem with it besides not implementing stats at all is that I don't really think it will be that hard to cut someones neck at all. Especially in a 3 sec. timeframe. The challenege is non-existent.
I guess the question I'd pose to you then would be:
"What kind of QTE do you envision, and how would you make it so that the player 1) Enjoys it, and 2) It doesn't become repetitive?"

A "Blade Mode" moment could make use of stats. If it has high enough damage, the target is killed outright, you slit their neck and don't even go into "Blade Mode", if you've got an iron dagger, you only do 1/4 damage and go into blade mode, you can slash at their neck again for some big damage, but it's not going to kill them outright. Also, stats could mean how long the dagger disables their hand or cripples the opponent.

It's not so much to provide "challenge" as "choice". It's a bonus that helps you put yourself ahead in the fight to come, a reward for sneaking correctly - even if you have a dinky weapon. The "Challenge" comes from the Stealth and the Fight afterwards.
 

Arnoxthe1

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TheDrunkNinja said:
Why would I have the desire to work hard for my enchanted dragon-bone dagger when the first hunk of sharp metal I pick up works as well?

I also cry foul at adding Assassin's Creed 3 QTE's where none are needed.
Because even though an iron dagger will slit anyones throat up good, it will still suck incredibly in actual combat. It may break with a good strike and it will do practically nothing against half-way decent armor. By getting a nice dagger, you ensure that not only can you do sneak attacks with it, you can begin to take on foes in face-to-face combat. I don't have all the specifics as to how actual face-to-face melee combat would work with a dagger but I think you get my point.

They're needed to add a penalty to an attempted sneak attack on a too high level target.

skywolfblue said:
I guess the question I'd pose to you then would be:
"What kind of QTE do you envision, and how would you make it so that the player 1) Enjoys it, and 2) It doesn't become repetitive?"

A "Blade Mode" moment could make use of stats. If it has high enough damage, the target is killed outright, you slit their neck and don't even go into "Blade Mode", if you've got an iron dagger, you only do 1/4 damage and go into blade mode, you can slash at their neck again for some big damage, but it's not going to kill them outright. Also, stats could mean how long the dagger disables their hand or cripples the opponent.

It's not so much to provide "challenge" as "choice". It's a bonus that helps you put yourself ahead in the fight to come, a reward for sneaking correctly - even if you have a dinky weapon. The "Challenge" comes from the Stealth and the Fight afterwards.
I'm imagining simply having to press 2-4 (depending on what type of backstab of course) random face buttons in a certain timeframe dependent on type as well. As the player levels in Sneak, the number of QTEs and the toughness of them will diminish more and more.

Your system definitely has merits but I think it still does need some work. The main problem now being that it just doesn't make very much sense that an iron dagger can't do as much damage as, say, an elven dagger. Both, when applied to a bare neck, should be equally nasty.
 

Chicago Ted

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piinyouri said:
Take the good bits from Dark Messiah. Seriously.
That's be a great start.
This guy! This guy right here!

The combat in Dark Messiah was the best part of the game. One of few where swinging a sword really felt like you were swinging a damn sword. If they mixed that in with an Elder Scrolls game, it'd be a hell of a lot of fun.

That said, the magic system in Elder Scrolls needs a lot of work as well. While it was better in Skyrim than in Oblivion, it still needs some work done to it to make it feel better as well. If I'm Conjuring something from the realms of Oblivion, I want there what I summon to be a bit more awesome. Or if I'm blasting someone in the face with a fireball, to react a bit when they're set aflame.
 

Arnoxthe1

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Chicago Ted said:
piinyouri said:
Take the good bits from Dark Messiah. Seriously.
That's be a great start.
This guy! This guy right here!

The combat in Dark Messiah was the best part of the game. One of few where swinging a sword really felt like you were swinging a damn sword. If they mixed that in with an Elder Scrolls game, it'd be a hell of a lot of fun.

That said, the magic system in Elder Scrolls needs a lot of work as well. While it was better in Skyrim than in Oblivion, it still needs some work done to it to make it feel better as well. If I'm Conjuring something from the realms of Oblivion, I want there what I summon to be a bit more awesome. Or if I'm blasting someone in the face with a fireball, to react a bit when they're set aflame.
Well, the guys behind Dark Messiah were also the ones behind Dishonored. So by extension, I think Dishonored would be where to look in terms of that.

As to magic, yeah, I have some suggestions for that as well but lets keep this topic focused on the melee side of things for now.
 

Neofishie

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So to fix the combat in the Elder Scrolls games, you propose to make Backstabbing overpowered right out of the gate? AND add a QTE to game series that's otherwise stat-based? Sorry, I don't follow your logic.

What TES combat needs is more varied animations, reactions and sound effects. The system in place works just fine. It doesn't need an overhaul, just more features and expansions on what's already present.

First they could add a feature where your weapons could hit the level geometry, that would change everything. Suddenly, your giant broadsword has difficulty in tunnel, forced to only stab forward. Or if you try more sweeping attack, you get a great big crashing sound effect and a big drop in damage from the lost energy.

Second, they modify the blocking so that without a shield you only protect against certain directions of attacks. Now you've made combat a far more mentally involved process. And even if you are blocking, there's a chance of the attack breaking through, based on the different weapons weights and skills behind them.

Finally, make the different weapons speeds more distinct, based on wieght. Why? To make a risk/reward counter for the blocking. Your lighter sword is less able to block heavy hits, but better able to lay on a barrage of blows, trying to overwhelm your opponent's ability to block by striking where he's not covering.

Just some ideas.
 

Trippy Turtle

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A quick time event would completely ruin the immersion, and therefore half the reason I use sneak skills.

The only way I can think of improving it is to make weapons bounce off things like the do in Dark Souls. Whether it be shields, enemies faces or the wall. Just make it feel more realistic then the slow strikes that go straight through an enemy but leaves no mark.
 

DalekJaas

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Dark messiah might and magic would be awesome to copy, completely disagree with Dark Souls
 

Folji

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piinyouri said:
Take the good bits from Dark Messiah. Seriously.
That's be a great start.
Anyoene else think Arkane Studios has pretty much had one of the better (if not the best) solutions for first person melee over the past years? I mean, sure, the Elder Scrolls series is what a lot of people think of when they think first person swordfights, either that or Mount & Blade, but if you ask me the Elder Scrolls setup has always felt so slow and sluggish against the sharp, fast-paced moves in both Dark Messiah and Dishonored. Arkane found a pretty good solution to it, one that Bethesda in particular should take a look at.
 

Smooth Operator

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Just for your information OP if they end up doing QTE in TES from now on I'm hunting you down to punch you for every QTE in the damn game.
QTE in Elder Scrolls is an improvement in the same way dog shit on steak is, sure is a novelty but that doesn't mean I ever want it near me.

And now for the question on how to actually improve the combat:
- fly to Japan
- kidnap Dragon's Dogma devs
- let them completely redo the combat
- massive profit
 

dementis

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Easy, a parry for any weapon and shield other than daggers and a back/ side step for dodging attacks. Combat has always felt tedious in the elder scrolls games to me, very slow and clunky. Also you can't block or deflect when duel wielding and movements to awful in the game to really dodge attacks.
 

Odinsson

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Jumping on the Dark Messiah bandwagon with this one and driving that wagon as far away as fraggin' possible from QTEs. In some games they work fine but not in a 1st-person action sword RPG. Also behind Monkey on the weapon weight thing.
 

Arnoxthe1

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To all who took a massive crap on the OP, before you instantly assume it's terrible just because you saw the dreaded word, "quicktime" please actually read the OP in full. Seriously, if I see another person who just writes off the entire system I just thought out without explaining why it would be bad just because they saw "quicktime", I'm just going to ignore that post completely.

SpunkeyMonkey said:
if I was going to stab someone from behind I wouldn't be waiting for a sequence of random things to pop up for me to execute.
You're right. If you really were going to stab someone from behind and you were a n00b at doing it, the opponent would see you doing it right before the attack landed and he would INTERCEPT it. Thus, you would have to wrestle to get the blade to his throat. THUS, a quicktime sequence. You're struggling with your opponent and by extension, struggling to input the correct sequence as fast as possible. Might as well argue that having to press the right trigger to swing your weapon breaks the immersion as well.

Or maybe you'd like the old system better. Very immersive, that one. Backstab someone and whoopsy daisy! The weapon isn't made from good enough material so the victim magically survives what should be a fatal blow by all accounts.
 

XSTALKERX

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People, people, listen. To create the perfect first person melee combat system all you need to do is take the core of dark messiah, take a good chunk of chivalry: medieval warfare, mix it in a pot and add a nice amount of condemned. Afterwards sprinkle some dishonored over it and there you have it. The perfect first person melee combat. Dark souls is third person and wouldn't mix well in first person.
 

Arnoxthe1

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SpunkeyMonkey said:
Lol, sorry if I came across as having a go (understandable reading my post back) - I wasn't, but I am dead set against things such as QTE's in TES.

Regards your suggestion itself It's irrelevant - it's all about the feel of what's happening.

If they intercept it then your involved in a struggle, which is more akin to vigorous d-pad/stick movements and button bashing than quick-time events.

Quick time events also just take you straight out of the game. Having to switch focus from what is actually happening to what buttons you should be pressing just kills immersion.
Well, at least you're making half-way decent points instead of just saying the equivalent of 'lolno.'

As to the vigorous d-pad/stick movements, I really don't like when a game does that. For two reasons.

1. It's usually too easy to succeed at because there's only so much a human can jam on the control stick/d-pad and the devs know this so they have to make it possible to do. And since it can only be so hard, it's easy. (Sorry if that didn't make sense.)

2. Doing such is the fastest way of wearing out your controller short of smashing it on something or spilling pop all over it.

So honestly, I think I'd really rather have something that's a little immersion breaking instead of something that's too easy and destroys your controller.
 

carpathic

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piinyouri said:
Take the good bits from Dark Messiah. Seriously.
That's be a great start.
That would make me not buy the game at ALL.

I like the battle system. It was infinitely better in skyrim than it was in obliviou where you could be level 50 and a Goblin would routinely hand you your ass - and it would block everything you threw at it with their stupid shields.

Making the combat harder would not make the game better - just more frustrating.

I would like to see the stealth kills improved to be a bit like dishonored maybe, but other than that, I enjoyed the combat and have no desire to see it made more "challenging" or "rewarding". I play the game for fun, not to be frustrated to hell.