Ideas To Improve Next Elder Scrolls Melee Combat

[IFS]

I'm definitely opposed to QTE's, for pretty much all the reasons that have already been stated (immersion breaking, distract you from the action, are just annoying to me in general). For the stealth in general I'd agree that it needs more dishonored. The real problem to me with it isn't that backstabs are too powerful its that sneaking is too easy and too simple.

As for the combat itself I'd say that it could also draw from Dishonored a bit, as well as Dark Souls. Obviously directly copying the combat from Dark Souls wouldn't work that well given the many differences between the games but I think a few things that could be pulled from it would be making different types of weapons feel different. In Skyrim the only real difference between a mace, an axe, and a sword if that they swing at slightly different speeds there isn't any sense of weight to them and they all swing exactly the same. Adding a greater variety of options in combat in general would be nice too, say parrying from Dishonored, plunging attacks ala Dark Souls (make them drop assassinations like in Dishonored if you sneak up on them, possibly gate such attacks behind a perk or something), and make power attacks for weapon types more distinctive (rather than just a heavy swing for all maybe give swords a stab for instance). I for one think it would be really cool if they took some inspiration from Dark Souls Dragon weapons for the Daedric weapons (or possibly other unique weapons as well) and give them some powerful unique effects on power attacks (say have Volendrung smash the ground and make a shockwave for instance).

I haven't played Dark Messiah so I can't comment on its combat, I have played Chivalry but I hated it (though that was in part due to constant lag, so I won't make comment on it either). I do think they could take some inspiration from Warband in terms of mounted combat, though I wasn't too impressed by that game for melee combat on foot.

The last comment I have for improving combat would be to improve the enemies and make them more varied, some enemies attacking from horseback, some enemies who attempt to hide and ambush you, enemies that act as support for other enemies, etc. Having the enemies react to damage would be nice too, make it feel more like the player is doing damage to them as opposed to the annoying damage sponges that tend to show up in Skyrim.

 

[Vausch]

I think the backstabs in Skyrim work fine all things considered. It's straight up combat that I think could stand an improvement. It feels like when you swing your sword or hammer you're not really hitting a person, rather you're going through an etheral manifestation of a character (appropriate for the spirits, I suppose). Something like the combat in Kingdoms of Alumar or Dragon's Dogma, where combos can be chained and there feels like some noticeable impact.

 

[spartan231490]

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Type 1: The hardest backstab to do. If you backstab someone that is a Type 1, you will enter into a 3-button quicktime sequence snip

Absolutely not. Quick time events do not belong in TES. The entire system is meant to flow, quick-time events are flow breaking. If you really want to improve TES combat, the best way to do it is probably to have blocking be passive. Anytime you're attacked there is a chance that you will block the attack, unless you're attacking or staggered. That is a very simple change that fits in with the overall flow of the game, and still makes combat more interesting.

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if I was going to stab someone from behind I wouldn't be waiting for a sequence of random things to pop up for me to execute.

You're right. If you really were going to stab someone from behind and you were a n00b at doing it, the opponent would see you doing it right before the attack landed and he would INTERCEPT it. Thus, you would have to wrestle to get the blade to his throat. THUS, a quicktime sequence. You're struggling with your opponent and by extension, struggling to input the correct sequence as fast as possible. Might as well argue that having to press the right trigger to swing your weapon breaks the immersion as well.
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You've never actually been in or even seen any kind of in-person fight have you? It takes a lot more than noticing an attack in the split-second before it happens to magically intercept the attack and get in a wrestling match with your attacker. If you were trying to stab someone from behind and they noticed you once you were already attacking, they're gonna get a blade in their kidney, the human body can only react so fast. If you got noticed once you were close enough, but before you'd actually attacked, you wouldn't really be able to line the shot up carefully enough to hit a vital spot, it would be just like any other attack.

The tiny sliver of time in which the enemy could notice you in time to react, but not in time to keep you from lining up a good shot, is probably on the order of a few 1/100ths of a second, and hardly worth mentioning, but if you really want to look at it, the enemy would, at best, be able to block or deflect the attack into a non-vital hit, they're certainly not going to get a good grip on your wrist and start struggling over the knife, that sort of thing only happens in the movies. The punch of a fist or dagger is just too fast for a last minute, flich reaction to do anything more than try put your arm in front of it. Emphasis try.

Source: 3 years martial arts experience.

Lastly, this quick time abomination wouldn't even improve TES combat, it would improve TES stealth, which would get a much better improvement from AI that was smart enough to put it's pants on correctly, than it would by the implementation of an arbitrary, unnecessary, and jarring quick time event.

 

[Arkley]

I think if you were going to add a QTE of some kind to create some kind of challenge to backstabs, the Bioshock 2-hacking-slider would be the way to go.

You know, you sneak up on an enemy, hit the execute button, time slows and a little bar pops up with a large red zone and small green zone, a little cursor moves quickly back-and-forth along the length of the bar, and you hit a button to stop it; stop it in the green zone for an instant kill/successful backstab, stop it in the green zone and you just wound the enemy. Higher stealth skill/level discrepancy between you and the foe would result in a larger green zone. If you don't stop it soon enough, the enemy hears you and turns.

It adds an element of skill to the kill along with a chance of failure, but it's still super fast and painless, unlike a bloated "cinematic sequence" in every attempt to kill an equal-or-higher-level enemy.

Edit: It wouldn't even have to be a sliding bar or anything so immersion breaking, now that I think about it. They could still implement the time-slow-on-execute thing, but instead of a QTE, they could have a small section of the enemy glow red, indicating a weakness in armour or a vital organ. Successfully targeting that via usual in-game crosshairs and hitting the attack button within the allotted time would yield the kill/critical damage, failing would yield above-average (it's still a backstab, after all) but non-fatal damage. As before, higher stealth skill/level yields a larger success zone.

 

[immortalfrieza]

snip
Type 1: The hardest backstab to do. If you backstab someone that is a Type 1, you will enter into a 3-button quicktime sequence snip

Absolutely not. Quick time events do not belong in TES. The entire system is meant to flow, quick-time events are flow breaking. If you really want to improve TES combat, the best way to do it is probably to have blocking be passive. Anytime you're attacked there is a chance that you will block the attack, unless you're attacking or staggered. That is a very simple change that fits in with the overall flow of the game, and still makes combat more interesting.

In other words, just like how Morrowind had it, but was switched to manual blocking because everybody hated it being random.

 

[Blaster395]

I think the best way to improve it would be to encourage the player to target specific parts of the enemy in melee. At present wild swings tend to be the best tactic in all situations, with only the occasional pause if their shield is raised. However, ideally you should have to target specific armor sections. Attacking heavy plate with a sword should deal zero damage. Thrusting through a gap in the armor should be a sneak attack (and the arbitary sneak attack modifier removed since you can manually aim a sneak attack). Attacking a shield that isn't active does full damage in Skyrim, but ideally it should count as being blocked. Attacking the opponent's weapon directly should cause a parry.

Armour selection, both for yourself and what NPCs carry, would become a lot more interesting because they wouldn't give arbitrary defense bonuses but instead determine where your weak points are.

I have seen people suggest using Dark Souls style combat, but the Elder Scrolls have always been primarily first person and directly targeted attacks work better in first person.

 

[spartan231490]

snip
Type 1: The hardest backstab to do. If you backstab someone that is a Type 1, you will enter into a 3-button quicktime sequence snip

Absolutely not. Quick time events do not belong in TES. The entire system is meant to flow, quick-time events are flow breaking. If you really want to improve TES combat, the best way to do it is probably to have blocking be passive. Anytime you're attacked there is a chance that you will block the attack, unless you're attacking or staggered. That is a very simple change that fits in with the overall flow of the game, and still makes combat more interesting.

In other words, just like how Morrowind had it, but was switched to manual blocking because everybody hated it being random.

No, morrowind had hits vs miss random, which sucked. This would only be blocking, and for shields you would still need a cover option

 

[Vivi22]

To all who took a massive crap on the OP, before you instantly assume it's terrible just because you saw the dreaded word, "quicktime" please actually read the OP in full. Seriously, if I see another person who just writes off the entire system I just thought out without explaining why it would be bad just because they saw "quicktime", I'm just going to ignore that post completely.

Quicktime events are generally bad because they basically result in you watching your character do something awesome, rather than you the player actually doing something awesome. There are some more reasons, and probably more out there than I can even think of, but that's the biggest one. But perhaps more to the point, you proposed this system without actually explaining what problem it's fixing.

And to me, the biggest problem with melee in the Elder Scrolls isn't that it's hard to kill people. It's that it's boring. There is almost nothing more boring than running up to something and mashing the attack button to beat them to death. And occasionally you'll press block but that's the whole thing. There's no skill or challenge in that combat. And quicktime events to backstab people aren't going to fix it since the problem is still there unless you sneak up. All they really do is add another thing with very little player agency that will also get boring fast.

As far as I'm concerned, the only way melee combat in the series will improve is if they finally decide to ditch the first person camera. You simply can not do melee combat with any depth without being able to accurately judge distance between your character and the enemies. Unless they change that, and I honestly doubt they will, melee combat will always suck in the Elder Scrolls and there really is no fixing it.

 

[sneakypenguin]

The RPG problem of damage spikes and damage mitigation growing to small or large needs to be fixed before combat is overhauled. For an FP hack and slash it wasn't terrible. Heck it could even be good if you tightened up the combat and changed animations.

 

[Vivi22]

If you really want to improve TES combat, the best way to do it is probably to have blocking be passive. Anytime you're attacked there is a chance that you will block the attack, unless you're attacking or staggered. That is a very simple change that fits in with the overall flow of the game, and still makes combat more interesting.

I'm not sure I see how removing one of the very few choices the player gets to make in combat is supposed to make it better. It seems to me that would just make it worse.

 

[Malbourne]

I've never thought of stealth as a sibling of direct combat. It's more of a thinking game: where are my enemies? Who can I get away with killing? Will the floor be messier than a Pollock painting by the time I'm done? The actual backstabbing should be relatively inconsequential. But, even by extension, this wouldn't necessarily make the upgrades of daggers inconsequential. Daggers don't need to do all that much damage anyway, if the wielder is smart about using them! Maybe a dragonbone dagger is easier to yank out of a spine? Maybe you'd be willing to risk a rusty dagger on a noisy target if it means keeping the superior weapons clean?

I have gripes with QTEs in combat for a different reason, though. When one pops up, you cease fighting a vivid opponent. It's more a battle between you and your controller; the enemy has no stake in the matter. I almost feel sorry for them when I finish, like they can only watch as I plunge my pigsticker into their pericardium. But then, that's how I prefer it...

 

[The AmeriCanadian Gamer]

Take the good bits from Dark Messiah. Seriously.
That's be a great start.

You beat me to it. Dark messiah is a game full of flaws/bugs, but it NAILED first person melee combat. I put up with the terrible voice acting and bugs just b/c its so satisfying. Fierce attacks, executions, the adrenaline meter, its all so well executed and there is a real feel of weight and power in the movements.

Not to mention its amazing how much of a difference a simple "kick" ability makes. Seriously, just a little kick is awesome.

Annd the sound of the neck being cut with an assassination is oh so lovely xD

Spoiler: Dark Messiah Assassin Trailer, listen to the assassination at the beginning

Spoiler: Dark Messiah Warrior Trailer, a better look at melee combat and kick mechanic

 

[ZAZL]

Well, since crappy combat is the main reason I haven't touched Skyrim in ages I'd say a complete overhaul is in order, but in the interest of time and since backstabs seem to be the popular topic, I'll just talk about those. This is going to be a bit long.

In response to OP's idea there are some problems with it. Primarily you've put in a mechanic that lets you insta-kill enemies even if you don't have the stat skills to do so. This seems wrong to me, especially seeing how dead set on skills you are. If you haven't raised your backstab skill high enough to assassinate a target, then you shouldn't be able to assassinate them, QTE or no. I am sympathetic to the uselessness of basic weapons, but you've overcorrected in making them a one shot kill, or a one shot kill after a QTE if you don't have the skill high enough.

The way I'd change backstabs would have to do more with positioning and stealth (which would be significantly nerfed as most people here have suggested). Backstabs would work in tandem with stealth, sneaking up behind your target without them noticing you is, obviously, the first thing you'd have to do. Once you're behind them and take your first stab the stat skill system comes into play. There would be several levels of backstab skill, at least 3, possibly more, which would apply different base-damage and crit-chance modifiers to your weapon's basic damage number. For the lowest level skill, a backstab would receive a fairly small base-damage mod with a varying crit-chance mod based on how you are positioned behind the target; in a 180 degree zone marked as "behind" the target the highest crit-chance mod would be at 90 degrees (directly behind the target) with lowering crit-chance mods as you get farther away from direct center, to nearly zero crit chance at 0 and 180. This helps the backstab mechanic work along with stealth and player skill, as you do less damage and are more likely to get caught trying to backstab as you get farther away from 90 degrees. When you actually make the attack there are two outcomes: 1) You backstab correctly (at low levels), represented by a crit ([weapon damage + backstab base-damage mod] x crit mod), meaning you've stabbed your blade all the way in and have done significant internal damage. The crit mod making appropriately leveled backstabs typically one-shot the target. 2) You flub the backstab (at low levels), represented by a non-crit, meaning your inexperience with backstabbing caused you to "stab" armor, or bone, etc. and only cause minor damage (weapon damage + backstab base-damage mod). At low skill levels these non-crits are unlikely to out right kill a target, but do significant damage (close to what melee focused weapons i.e. sword, axe, etc. would do), and possibly stun the target long enough for you to try hiding again to set up for another attempt.

As you put more points into the backstab skill your base-damage mod would increase, your crit-chance mod would decrease in damage (possibly decrease/increase in likelihood), but have a more uniform % chance at wider angles. This would stabilize the damage curve of your backstabs as you put points into the skill and get better stealth abilities, having it rely on partially random crit-chance mods for damage at low levels, and produce high damage even without chance-based crits at high levels. Having backstab base damage go up and crits go down at higher levels is a good way to represent the natural progression of skill as the player character learns how to properly backstab, makes fewer mistakes, and become more proficient and reliable. Over leveled backstabs are likely to kill targets even without critting.

Something else would be to improve the AI of surrounding enemies to the sounds and results of an attempted backstab. Like if you backstab someone while they're talking the other enemies would react to it, or a failed backstab has the target calling for help / alerting other enemies.

The last bit I'd think to put in off the top of my head would be a system to vary how different armors react to backstabs. Heavier armors would resist, if not be outright immune to, backstabs; this could be represented in a number of ways like reduced modifiers or negative modifiers etc. Another idea I find interesting for higher level backstab play is having high level armors with different crit-chance and resistance zones, for instance an armor set that is immune from backstabs directly behind it, but vulnerable at the sides. A skill letting you see the vulnerabilities of different armors would be more or less required for this last part to keep it from becoming a trial and error process though. This would keep the game of sneaking up on an enemy interesting even at higher levels, compensating for the player's higher sneak skill by requiring them to expose themselves to perform a backstab.

All that ^
Is basically how I would rework the backstab system in Skyrim / TES without changing too much of the game, though as is it's a little rough and I'd still need to mess with it. Most of the systems would be fairly easy to implement and the player would never be slapped in the face with them outside of the "armor vulnerability skill" thing.

TL;DR
Backstabs are based on how well you can sneak, positioning, weapon power, and luck-at-low-levels. Even crappy weapons at the lowest skill level can kill appropriately leveled enemies. You can significantly damage, but not out right kill, enemies outside your skill range with backstabs. Failed backstabs encourage you to run, hide, and then try again once the enemy lets their guard down.

Holy shit this went longer than I though it would O>O

 

[NeutralDrow]

I honestly really like the way Skyrim's melee combat already is. The only thing I could think of would be to add grapples and more weapons, and maybe allow blocking/parrying with an off-hand weapon.

So let's say you're beginning the game and you've got a nice sharp iron dagger. Now, in Skyrim's combat system, it's hardly more than a pitiful toy. Barely better than your fists.

Then we're talking before I learned how to use daggers. I realize on second read that you're only talking about the sneak attacks (I like how they work already, so no comment on that), but I actually love using them in straight-up fights. As long as you don't make the mistake of dual-wielding them, you can take some stamina upgrades, spec into certain Block perks, and turn yourself into a matrix-dodging, stun-locking, quick-slicing master.

Also, don't diss the fists. The unarmed kill cinematics are the coolest in the game, I'd love for there to be actual fist weapons, like brass knuckles, punch daggers, or cesti.

Not sure I'd go for a "whoever does the most damage" wins, either, but I'm fairly sure there's mods for that (the Realistic Combat mod sounds similar).

 

[JagermanXcell]

Make it Mount and Blade: Skyrim. Intuitive. Extremely skill based. Difficult to fight large numbers of enemies but quite rewarding.

Yeah, but then it wouldn't be The Elder Scrolls anymore.

Yeah challenge would make the game amazing and no one wants that, it wouldn't be Elder Scrolls without the the horrible melee and hand holding. (Sorry about the snooty sarcasm, I kid)

OT: A lot of people bring up what I was going to and say Dark Souls, but counter argue by saying it won't translate well from a 3rd person to 1st. Simple, just add well timed parries and riposte animations, and depending on what armor you're wearing replace Dark Soul's roll for lets say carefully synced side steps with enough i frames to counter enemies. Also someone mentioned a backstab, which I agree should be reserved to only stealth kills, not like Dark Souls where almost everything is backstabable (what is stealth?!) and you can even backstab with a Scythe... A... Scythe... I mean I know realism isn't a video game thing but it just looks silly animation wise.

And this is just me but a little more variety in the weapon animations, all they do is differentiate the swing speed on a majority of the weapons, why not give weapons more versatile forms off attack like guard breaking, sword clashing, cross countering, or the option to two hand a one handed weapon for more damage. I'd also like to see limb breaking options much like in the Fallout games, shooting a Bandit's arm so he cant wield his bow properly reducing his accuracy or his mobility when you take out his leg would make for great variety when you fight groups.

And better AI, for Talos' sake Bethesda getting shot in the head by a mysterious arrow is NOT one's imagination.

 

[Jeff O'Krafka]

I think we should go back too "A" Morrowind Style(key word style not full morrowind combat). Where at level 1 you can hardly swing a sword to level 10 where your ok with the sword. But still keep the fluidness of Skyrim. And what would really help fixing the combat in general is when you lvl up you get a plus 5 too your health/mana/stam and then u get too choose one too put 10 into, or just go back too the better leveling system.

 

[The_Lost_King]

I think combat itself is fine as it is. I think if they just added animations and things to make it look and feel better people would like it. I use Skyre and it really shows that Skyrim combat can have some depth to it you just have to modify armor and weapons and the perks.

 

[immortalfrieza]

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Type 1: The hardest backstab to do. If you backstab someone that is a Type 1, you will enter into a 3-button quicktime sequence snip

Absolutely not. Quick time events do not belong in TES. The entire system is meant to flow, quick-time events are flow breaking. If you really want to improve TES combat, the best way to do it is probably to have blocking be passive. Anytime you're attacked there is a chance that you will block the attack, unless you're attacking or staggered. That is a very simple change that fits in with the overall flow of the game, and still makes combat more interesting.

In other words, just like how Morrowind had it, but was switched to manual blocking because everybody hated it being random.

No, morrowind had hits vs miss random, which sucked. This would only be blocking, and for shields you would still need a cover option

Wrong. In Morrowind the player only blocked with the shield at random intervals based on the player's block skill.

 

[Saelune]

I dont understand what people want out of combat from TES games. Real life medival combat is not very flashy. TES has 3 styles it has to have work together, combat, magic, and stealth. Focusing too much on making the combat "good" might hurt the others. Sure it can be better, and it has, and likely TES VI will make it better, but I feel most people will still want something to complain about.

 

[Megahedron]

Well, I'm disappointed this thread isn't about how to improve the melee combat in general, though several of you have correctly answered that question anyways, so that's good. Now you've identified a problem: The backstab kills in Skyrim feel too easy. I agree with that. Your suggestion to fix this issue it to increase the difficulty of the backstab itself using QTEs. In my opinion, and I think it was suggested earlier in the thread, the problem is not with the backstab, but with how easy it is to sneak up behind someone. If the backstab stays a press-a-button-get-a-kill, but becomes the payoff of a difficulty stealthy encounter, the feeling of accomplishment will increase.

I'm just going to use the most recent stealth game I played, Dishonored, as my example. To kill/knock out an unaware enemy, you just have to hold down a single button. In that system, a one button kill is much more satisfying than it is in Skyrim. This isn't because pressing a single button is more difficult in one game than the other, but because the situation surrounding the stealth kill is itself rewarding. A typical stealth encounter in Skyrim involves crouching and walking up behind each enemy in a room and pressing a button. I have to pay almost no heed to other enemies because as long as I stay crouched they have almost no chance of spotting me. And as we all know, these kills don't feel skilled or meaningful. Most stealth kills in Dishonored require scoping out the area, possibly studying the enemy's routes, and (if you're as bad as I am) no small amount of trial and error. Once Corvo ends up behind an enemy, the kill itself is the same as in Skyrim, one button press. However by the time the body is hidden, I feel like I've accomplished something. What has changed is not actually the mechanic of the stealth kill, but the skill required to achieve it. I've done something correctly, and the kill is the reward for my hard work.

Now that conclusion ties in with your idea, that the stealth kills with QTEs will feel more rewarding because they are more difficult. The issue is, when I succeed in a QTE, I don't feel proud of my ability to press the button that flashes on screen, it feels like something I should execute correctly every time. When I fail, I get annoyed with both the game and myself, I feel stupid for messing up the most basic principal of video games (press the right button!) and angry with the game for punishing me for something that isn't really a skill, just a reflex and paying attention test. The next time I'm facing the QTE and succeed, I don't think it's because I've developed a better strategy or skill set for beating QTEs, so I don't get the same feeling of achievement I get from successfully blinking behind a guard as he walks over to inspect the bottle I just smashed against my head. People (I think) like challenges because overcoming them proves that they are strong, smart, or skilled enough to do so. Beating a QTE doesn't make us feel good about ourselves, and losing them costs us time to try again or something else in game. The best case scenario with skill QTEs is that they are neutral, and the worst case is that they are frustrating.

Now I like the idea of making different animations/events based on how much damage you can do. Currently, if you don't have the damage to execute the throat slit your character just slashes the target's back, which just doesn't seem as cool. If a little "opponent swats your arm away as you go for the slice so you end up giving him a swift kidney stab" animation played if I was only able to do half the opponent's hit points in damage I think it'd nicely compliment the current kill animation. The opponent would then be facing you with a significant amount of health lost and ready for an otherwise normal encounter. Could be fun.