Idris Elba reportedly being considered for next James Bond
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That's true, and I think we're coming at it from different angles.evilthecat said:
I've always seen, and a part of me believes this given we're still dealing with artists who did more than often just toss the original source material in the fire and make ultra silly parodies of itself, that the insane nationalism of Moore's depiction was itself an indictment of a British conceptualization of its own exceptionalism and ownership of the world.
Even Connery was depicted as childlike from his very first scene when ordered to exchange his chosen sidearm for one deemed service regulation for his operations.
Less heroic and more indignant.
I'm not saying port all its attitudes. Because no one actually wants to see Japanification Bond scene again even if You Only Live Twice is considered to be a fan favourite.
But if you can import the campy silliness of the Moore films and what I believe is probably the best biting social satire in the Bond films to date (even if one believes they were unintentional, which it couldn't have *totally* been) ... particularly in terms of its irreverence of the Cold War and the East-West polemic.
I don't think you can just call it '20/20 hindsight' ... particularly in how it handles Cold War politics at the time. There had to be introspection there of just how silly it all was.
But this is problematic. Because even in the last film with constructing the imagery of this 'deeply flawed' characterisation of Bond .... it's still not reflective of the social realities of soldiers coming back from Afghanistan or Iraq. With brain damage induced behavioural and motor skill problems from persistent blast force exposure and general longterm war exposure soldiers across the Western world have experienced and will continue to be diagnosed with up to 15 years after they have returned.
It's an equivocation, and does not deal with the subject of what it means to fight with credibility to begin with. Not unless they want to show the reality of what it's like to be near high explosive. The accelerated cerebellar damages of axonal shearing events. The twitching, the vomiting, the confusion, the growing incapacity to hold a cogent string of thoughts together as time goes on.
We still have modern James Bond films that think explosives are merely deflagration events rather than something that lifts you off your feet, gear and all, and crushes you into the ground or flings you into walls and other cover you were hiding for dear life behind. Pulling and pushing at you, and your vulnerable internals, and distorting the shape of your very organs and vascular system momentarily.
And people aren't going to want to see that James Bond either, when the reality is people literally don't see that violence and typically survive or do so and 'simply get over it'. No... you're permanently damaged. You don't get to see that sort of stuff and just live. People just end up keeling over and dying from full body exposure to multi-level injury events.
So if you're already going to have this depiction of a person that somehow falls from a bridge after being shot, 180 metres into the fucking bay, and construct a mythology 'he just neexed some time off...' rather than; "Well this guy is written off from action. What other agents do we have?" ... well 'deeply flawed' isn't exactly flawed enough, or sympathetic enough.
It's mythology. In its most naked form.
And ifeople are going to mythologize and nationalistically attach virtues to it, I've always believed that the satire should be rooted in reality of just how overbloated something actually is.
The SIS is one of the most heavily resourced government bureaus on Earth. It is literally 2000 people with 3% of the total budget set aside for every branch of the NHS. And that's only the public government budget, not shadow allocations with joint military operations. That demands Moore level satire. It demands laser wristwatches, invisible cars, gas dispersing briefcases and yoyo circular saw wielding bad guys to fight.
If the reality is almost otherworldly, the depiction of it should be fucking Moonraker levels.
It demands it, because after the grins fade away and they turn to their government officials and ask; "So how much money do you guys actually get and what do you spend it on? ..." Suddenly that is incredibly uncomfortable for the powers that be.
That's what all good movies should do. Otherwise no one actually wants to recognize that it's not paying for some guy named 'James Bond' to save them from some ridiculous threat beyond all sensibility, it's paying for mercenaries in Africa to protect oil interests, or committing war crimes in the ME.
Nothing about Craig is sympathetic or even broken. Because he's not reflective of how SIS has ever operated and will ever operate.
The most inexcusable thing of the Craig films is the actual plotline that was actual about the 'dangers' of trying to rein in its budget and powers. How fucked is that? I personally thought that would cause Britons to riot in the streets from how grossly out of fucking touch that sentiment is in SPECTRE or Skyfall... The audacity of treating Vesper in Casino Royale as some officious bean counter--FUCK YOU! 2000 SIS personnel somehow cost the British taxpayer *72 million pounds a day in just baseline operational expenses* ... I would demand an audit of the entire organization if I was the Minister of Defence!
That is a stupid amount of money.
Bond doesn't need sympathy. He needs a public magnifying glass of outright satire. Make SIS as silly as fucking possible because its existence is as (tragically) silly as you can possibly get.
And even if that doesn't work out as it should, at least James Bond will be fun again.
60s Batman > The Dark Knight.
If Bond isn't fighting something on the scale of Unicron any 'flawed characterization' of James Bond isn't flawed enough... needs more satire.
And it doesn't need to be, because there's plenty of room in this world for unrealistic, fun escapism.Addendum_Forthcoming said:
No. Nothing like that.Addendum_Forthcoming said:
The SIS ("MI6") is foreign intelligence. The budget you're citing is the total intelligence agency budget of #2.6 billion, also including the domestic intelligence service ("MI5") and general government / military intelligence (GCHQ). SIS is the smallest of these three agencies by some way; assuming roughly similar costs per employee, it's going to be more in the region of #500 million.
As most people, I have a man crush on Elba. I want to see him in more things. Luther made me feel more in a few short series (It's called SEASONS, you bastards) than most media has done for the last decade.
That said, I don't like roll change ups just because. If I can't see the reason for the switch, I really have no feelings for it. Elba as Heimdall? Oh, hell yes. I literally can't think of a more immovable person in Movies in terms of strength of character. That was an interesting idea, even if it was explored well.
That's what I'm struggling with here. Does this mean that we finally get confirmation that Bond is a title and not an actual person? That will remove a bit of the mystery, won't it? This is my problem. While I love Elba, his inclusion will ruin the age old Bond question... which is literally the only thing I find interesting about Bond any more.
That said, I don't like roll change ups just because. If I can't see the reason for the switch, I really have no feelings for it. Elba as Heimdall? Oh, hell yes. I literally can't think of a more immovable person in Movies in terms of strength of character. That was an interesting idea, even if it was explored well.
That's what I'm struggling with here. Does this mean that we finally get confirmation that Bond is a title and not an actual person? That will remove a bit of the mystery, won't it? This is my problem. While I love Elba, his inclusion will ruin the age old Bond question... which is literally the only thing I find interesting about Bond any more.
Well that was kind of my point. I was arguing for a return to the Moore type of campy ultra-silliness. That if Bond isn't fighting a Unicron level disaster event, then needs more Unicron. With gadgets, and cheesy quips, etc.Agema said:
Oh ... ehhh, then I'm mistaken. 500M pounds seems pretty reasonable, actually. ASIS is about AUD451M for a nation about half the size and I'm pretty sure Australian Signals Directorate chews up a ridiculous budget ontop of that.
I'm pretty sure the "I'm totally not racist" people are just name dropping Elba because he's the only British actor of sub-Saharan descent they know by name. Plural of anecdote isn't data, but I swear to Christ every time this has come up in casual conversation with close or distant social groups I am or have been part of or associated with, over the past decade this has been a thing, eventually I have enough of the virtue signalling and challenge people to name ONE black British actor besides Elba without looking it up on their smartphones. Not once -- not fucking once -- has anyone been able to answer the challenge.
The number of people who think Don Cheadle is British, however, truly boggles the mind. Since Black Panther showed up in MCU, Chadwick Boseman is the new Don Cheadle, which is even funnier -- at least Don Cheadle played a Brit in a movie.
Someone once thought they'd turn the tables and "gotcha" me, and I answered with the black British actor I think best suited to the role -- Richard Ayoade. I think the idea of a highly-educated Bond who solves problems diplomatically and through sheer force of wits, while avoiding direct violence -- basically being somewhere between Sherlock Holmes and MacGyver -- would reinvigorate the franchise in a huge way. But alas, apparently Richard Ayoade isn't black...who knew?
EDIT: In fact, I'll tell you how I could see this working and how I think it would be a fucking good movie that reinvigorates the Bond franchise and provides some new concepts.
The number of people who think Don Cheadle is British, however, truly boggles the mind. Since Black Panther showed up in MCU, Chadwick Boseman is the new Don Cheadle, which is even funnier -- at least Don Cheadle played a Brit in a movie.
Someone once thought they'd turn the tables and "gotcha" me, and I answered with the black British actor I think best suited to the role -- Richard Ayoade. I think the idea of a highly-educated Bond who solves problems diplomatically and through sheer force of wits, while avoiding direct violence -- basically being somewhere between Sherlock Holmes and MacGyver -- would reinvigorate the franchise in a huge way. But alas, apparently Richard Ayoade isn't black...who knew?
EDIT: In fact, I'll tell you how I could see this working and how I think it would be a fucking good movie that reinvigorates the Bond franchise and provides some new concepts.
After the roguish, ultraviolent bullshit Craig's Bond pulled, MI6 is under immense political pressure to dial things down a bit. They send another 00 agent to retire him, but they kill each other in a very public incident, and that's the last straw -- Parliament orders the 00 section shut down within a set time frame. That's the first act.
Meanwhile, Leiter (fuck yeah, Jeffrey Wright) is working the next Bond villain, with the aid of...I don't know, we haven't had a German Bond girl for 50 years, so he's working with German intelligence and the next Bond girl is his liaison. They're not getting results fast enough to stop the next big villain plan, and need help from MI6. So, M sends a distinguished, talented, and charismatic member of Q Division, who's already familiar with the job and its requirements. Anyone can be physically conditioned and trained in fighting, but the question is...can this guy kill to get the job done? That's the second act.
So, Ayoade's character is put through intense, truncated, physical and combat training. He barely passes the physical requirements, but he proves himself tough, absolutely unwilling to give up, and even figures out a way or two to cheat his way through it. After having been trained, he's put in the field, but only to support Leiter and the Bond girl, because he's new and untested. There's some third-act action, where the new Bond immediately proves himself a liability in the field, because the three of them are trying to do things the "old" way and it just won't work any more.
All of that's floated by playing off Ayoade's comedy chops, making the third act lighter in tone than the rest of the film but emphasizing the stakes of the movie for all parties. The Bond girl feels sorry for the poor bastard, shares with him her story of how she botched her first mission to encourage him, and they grow close (i.e. bang). They end up being captured by the villain, and that's the end of the third act.
The fourth act is where shit hits the fan. Ayoade's Bond realizes, this isn't working and he has to do things his way. So, he plays smart and uses his Q Division experience to MacGyver their way out of the situation. By this point, Leiter and the Bond girl are supporting him by keeping the baddies away while he does his thing. The new Bond even discovers the villain had compromising material on some of the MP's responsible for the decision to mothball 00 Section. By the end of the movie, they've had the big confrontation, the new Bond straight up out-thinks the villain into wrecking their own scheme, and the day's saved.
At the end of the movie, M goes to Parliament and proves 00 section can get the job done without causing diplomatic incidents or highly public acts of violence. And he has the compromising material on the MP's, to blackmail them into not mothballing 00 section. Because Ralph Fiennes' M is gangsta. The last scene is Bond's debriefing by M; he had trouble at first, but managed to succeed and save 00 section in the process...but he didn't kill anyone, so he's unqualified for 00 status. Bond calls him out on his bullshit, points out eagerness to kill was what caused 00 section's problems to begin with, he got the job done anyways, and if M doesn't like that he can have Bond retired at any time.
Meanwhile, Leiter (fuck yeah, Jeffrey Wright) is working the next Bond villain, with the aid of...I don't know, we haven't had a German Bond girl for 50 years, so he's working with German intelligence and the next Bond girl is his liaison. They're not getting results fast enough to stop the next big villain plan, and need help from MI6. So, M sends a distinguished, talented, and charismatic member of Q Division, who's already familiar with the job and its requirements. Anyone can be physically conditioned and trained in fighting, but the question is...can this guy kill to get the job done? That's the second act.
So, Ayoade's character is put through intense, truncated, physical and combat training. He barely passes the physical requirements, but he proves himself tough, absolutely unwilling to give up, and even figures out a way or two to cheat his way through it. After having been trained, he's put in the field, but only to support Leiter and the Bond girl, because he's new and untested. There's some third-act action, where the new Bond immediately proves himself a liability in the field, because the three of them are trying to do things the "old" way and it just won't work any more.
All of that's floated by playing off Ayoade's comedy chops, making the third act lighter in tone than the rest of the film but emphasizing the stakes of the movie for all parties. The Bond girl feels sorry for the poor bastard, shares with him her story of how she botched her first mission to encourage him, and they grow close (i.e. bang). They end up being captured by the villain, and that's the end of the third act.
The fourth act is where shit hits the fan. Ayoade's Bond realizes, this isn't working and he has to do things his way. So, he plays smart and uses his Q Division experience to MacGyver their way out of the situation. By this point, Leiter and the Bond girl are supporting him by keeping the baddies away while he does his thing. The new Bond even discovers the villain had compromising material on some of the MP's responsible for the decision to mothball 00 Section. By the end of the movie, they've had the big confrontation, the new Bond straight up out-thinks the villain into wrecking their own scheme, and the day's saved.
At the end of the movie, M goes to Parliament and proves 00 section can get the job done without causing diplomatic incidents or highly public acts of violence. And he has the compromising material on the MP's, to blackmail them into not mothballing 00 section. Because Ralph Fiennes' M is gangsta. The last scene is Bond's debriefing by M; he had trouble at first, but managed to succeed and save 00 section in the process...but he didn't kill anyone, so he's unqualified for 00 status. Bond calls him out on his bullshit, points out eagerness to kill was what caused 00 section's problems to begin with, he got the job done anyways, and if M doesn't like that he can have Bond retired at any time.
As long as he has the whitty one liners, a Walter Pistol, and the charm to convince me he can get as many woman as he manages to get, I will be happy.
https://chaser.com.au/entertainment/world-celebrates-progress-as-hollywood-casts-black-man-to-play-violent-gun-wielding-murderer/
Yeah, that sums up the thread nicely.
Yeah, that sums up the thread nicely.
Come on man, what is this? Nobody cares how many black British actors you know. Richard Ayoade is one of many many talented peeps.Eacaraxe said:
I was pointing out the hypocrisy in people who virtue signal by name dropping Idris Elba, but he's the only black British actor they know?Xsjadoblayde said:
Or, you know...that so many people, many on these very forums of the past no less, have also concurred they'd like to see Elba try his hand at the role? I think you might be confusing 'popular consensus' for 'virtue signalling' and 'hypocrisy'.Eacaraxe said:
The man's an actor trying to put food on the table. You think they wouldn't have just replaced him the moment they thought he was being too difficult? It's not like he had any other box office smash hit franchises he could fall back on. How many of the Bond actors have had any say in how their characters were written?Saelune said:
Elba has done a lot of popular genre stuff, so he's top-of-mind for a lot of people. Not sure that equates virtue signaling, but then I often find that when people actually use the term "virtue signaling" what they're trying to say is they don't share the virtue being displayed. ?\_(ツEacaraxe said:
_/? This sounds like an objectively dickish way to engage with people.
Yes.Saelune said:
I really wish that Colin Salmon had gotten a chance to be Bond rather than just a bit player in the Brosnen movies.Johnny Novgorod said:
He oozed charm. Had great physicality. Just a quintessential Englishman. Sadly at 55 he could do one movie but not the franchise Holywood wants these days.
That right there is what we call in the business ?bad faith?. It also comes off as a bit hipster-esque and nerd points grabbing by making it some sort of game or gotcha when it serves no purpose but to decry ?virtue signaling? because... what somebody wants to make a casting decision for a hypothetical movie? Welcome to nerd culture. Where apparently now we even argue over the race of a voice actor for a dog being considered ?race bending? and ?too much?.Eacaraxe said:
Yeah, i'm gonna second some sentiments above, and ask: Why this sudden pushback against Elba Bond? Oh no, people are hypocrites, because the black actor they want to cast as this or that is a POPULAR actor...?
And yes, while black actors in the(especially Hollywood) biz may end up typecasted as violent characters, drug pushers, gang thugs, soldiers of fortune etc., none of this side stuff is really comparable to being Her Majesty's superspy James Bloody Bond.
BTW: Aoyade as Bond? If there's one role this guy should play in a Bond film, it's Q.
Would be an improvement over current Q to boot, imho...
And if we play this "pick-black-actor-that-isn't-Elba-to-play-Bond" game: Chiwetel Ejiofor, there.
And yes, while black actors in the(especially Hollywood) biz may end up typecasted as violent characters, drug pushers, gang thugs, soldiers of fortune etc., none of this side stuff is really comparable to being Her Majesty's superspy James Bloody Bond.
BTW: Aoyade as Bond? If there's one role this guy should play in a Bond film, it's Q.
Would be an improvement over current Q to boot, imho...
And if we play this "pick-black-actor-that-isn't-Elba-to-play-Bond" game: Chiwetel Ejiofor, there.