If button mashing works, is it bad game design?

[Say Anything]

I don't know how many Tekken/Soul Calibur/Street Fighter/etc. gamers are on the Escapist, but I'm somewhere between beginner and intermediate in the genre. When I play with friends, I have a jolly good time trying to dodge moves and pull off my favorite juggles or combos, and even though I lose I really have a fun time. Recently, however, my sister picked up a controller and managed to button mash me to my death in Soul Calibur III. I used the "I forgot I have chores to do" excuse to get away from the game without letting her know I was pissed.

Anyway, who do YOU blame? Is it the game developer's fault that pressing random buttons can lead to a victory, is it the masher's fault for not playing the game like it's meant to be played, or is it the other player's fault for not understanding how to counter random attacks? Are you a button masher? Do you support button mashing?

 

[Mr0llivand3r]

I don't know how many Tekken/Soul Calibur/Street Fighter/etc. gamers are on the Escapist, but I'm somewhere between beginner and intermediate in the series. When I play with friends, I have a jolly good time trying to dodge moves and pull off my favorite juggles or combos, and even though I lose I really have a fun time. Recently, however, my sister picked up a controller and managed to button mash me to my death in Soul Calibur III. I used the "I forgot I have chores to do" to get away from the game without letting her know I was pissed.

Anyway, who do YOU blame? Is it the game developer's fault that pressing random buttons can lead to a victory, is it the masher's fault for not playing the game like it's meant to be played, or is it the other player's fault for not understanding how to counter random attacks? Are you a button masher? Do you support button mashing?

it IS bad game design. because its horrible if you spend countless hours honing your abilities in the game and still be beaten by an 8 year old who is randomly smashing buttons.

i think true game mechanics need to have easy-to-learn, but somewhat refined controls

 

[Sewblon]

If randomly pushing buttons is indisputably the most effective tactic, the game is poorly designed. If it is not, then it is the non masher's fault for not learning how to counter it.

 

[ZeroMachine]

It's only a problem with the game itself when it works against people that have mastered the game and know how to fight without button mashing. Example:
A player of Street Fighter who knows almost every single move in the game just won a tournament. If a ten year old picks up a controller, starts button mashing, and wins even one match, you have a problem with game design. And I'm not saying that's the way Street Fighter works, I wouldn't know, I gave up on traditional fighting games years ago, as I suck at them... badly.

So, I blame the designers if it's a huge problem even with pros, or the pro if it's a rarity that button mashing wins with the game. No matter what, though, how can you blame the button masher? If a game can be played a certain way, it should be played that way. Even if it's not as fun for you, it may be just as fun for the other person. A true fighter uses everything at his disposal, etc.

I'm not a button masher myself, but if it exists and if it works for the person, I say "go ahead". But then again, I don't really know anyone who button mashes (shocking, I know) so I shouldn't judge =P

 

[Lord Beautiful]

If randomly pushing buttons is indisputably the most effective tactic, the game is poorly designed. If it is not, then it is the non masher's fault for not learning how to counter it.

This.

 

[Say Anything]

So ZeroMachine, your belief is that unless you're a professional at the game it doesn't matter?

If a non-pro plays the game for 6 hours, then loses to a button masher, that's not poor design, but if somebody's been playing their whole life and loses to someone, that's when it becomes a problem?

Really makes no sense to me, sorry. Experience with the game and how the player catches on should be the only two factors of who's better.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

It isn't necessarily bad game design per se, however the current design for Soul Caliber happens to be incentivizing her to either play more because she wins or disincentivizing her from learning how the game works because her ignorant play style is effective.

Depending on what the designers intended; how far from the mark reality is would determine if the design was good or bad.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

If randomly pushing buttons is indisputably the most effective tactic, the game is poorly designed. If it is not, then it is the non masher's fault for not learning how to counter it.

However if this criticism was thrown towards Smash Bros. everybody would be citing the ingenius inclusivity of design by Nintendo.

The intention of the game designers should really be regarded when judging it's design.

 

[Duck Sandwich]

In Soul Calibur, it seems that the intermediate players have the lowest chances of winning. The experts will beat them through their superior skill and knowledge of techniques and countering, and the beginners will beat them through sheer button-mashery, assuming the intermediate players haven't gotten good enough at parrying/repelling attacks.

Button mashing is bad game design because there's no real skill involved. You can't improve your skill at button mashing to become better than another button masher. Maybe you practice mashing buttons to the point where you can mash buttons split-seconds faster than the other guy, but there's really no room for improvement.

 

[kaiZie]

interesting point.

I think that it's in the interest of fairness that button mashing needs to be stamped out. when ever I play fighting games im always in the command list looking for a cool combo to learn, but when you play against someone it's easier to win by button mashing...usually.

however, I can't really comment either since i'm not up to date with fighters, last one i played was DoA4....

 

[Jumpman]

I think one could argue that most arcade fighters in general require less variety of skills than many other genres. mostly its just an issue of timing and rote memorization. compared say, to a fps where you need to know the maps, how the different guns work and which one to use depending on the situation, how to snipe, when to melee, and how to work as a team. Its not that fighting games are necessarily easier by default, they just have a more limited skill set. Thats why button mashing wouldn't work on a platformer or rpg, theres too many factors for a random sequence of buttons to have a positive effect.

 

[Say Anything]

In Soul Calibur, it seems that the intermediate players have the lowest chances of winning. The experts will beat them through their superior skill and knowledge of techniques and countering, and the beginners will beat them through sheer button-mashery, assuming the intermediate players haven't gotten good enough at parrying/repelling attacks.

Exactly, I almost felt my sister had as good of a chance of beating me as my friends do when we play the game. It's just weird to me how a greater knowledge of the game doesn't always mean you have greater odds of winning.

As for whoever brought up that if the other player finds joy in button mashing then let them do it, I agree, I just find it frustrating and personally don't understand what the fun is in that. They should just punch a keyboard if they enjoy mashing buttons.

 

[TheBluesader]

I don't know how many Tekken/Soul Calibur/Street Fighter/etc. gamers are on the Escapist, but I'm somewhere between beginner and intermediate in the genre. When I play with friends, I have a jolly good time trying to dodge moves and pull off my favorite juggles or combos, and even though I lose I really have a fun time. Recently, however, my sister picked up a controller and managed to button mash me to my death in Soul Calibur III. I used the "I forgot I have chores to do" excuse to get away from the game without letting her know I was pissed.

Speaking specifically about Soul Calibur IV, button-mashing friendliness can be a frustrating thing, but it's also kind of nice if you want to play a newbie. They have a fair chance to beat you, if you let them.

But that's the key with this game. Experienced players will know how to avoid hits, be patient, and use grabs and power attacks to end the match quickly. The mashing leads to quantity, not quality. I was losing to her quite a bit till I realized I could just run and roll around her in 3 dimensions, then lightning-beat the teeth out of her. Then all my invested time showed. "Why can't I hit you?!" "How do you keep getting away?!" she's screaming as she's twisting the controller apart.

And that's when I got the greatest experience benefit of all: feeling like a big man for beating my baby sister at a game she never plays. Oh, the twisted joy.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I think one could argue that most arcade fighters in general require less variety of skills than many other genres. mostly its just an issue of timing and rote memorization. compared say, to a fps where you need to know the maps, how the different guns work and which one to use depending on the situation, how to snipe, when to melee, and how to work as a team. Its not that fighting games are necessarily easier by default, they just have a more limited skill set. Thats why button mashing wouldn't work on a platformer or rpg, theres too many factors for a random sequence of buttons to have a positive effect.

Higher levels of competitive play in fighting games is actually an experience that many people have not seen or even played like. Timing and memorization is essential however there is a chess playing element where you have to know the attemped combo by your opponent in order to know where the break is or what combo you should be trying to do in opposition.

It's a whole metagame unto itself that is as complex as chess.

 

[number2301]

See, this is why graphics don't matter in a game.

Not true, play the original Civilization and tell me graphics don't matter, they can be so bad that they hamper gameplay.

 

[geldonyetich]

I get the feeling there were probably a half-dozen "if button mashing works, is it bad game design" discussions embedded in the comment thread for Yahtzee's take on Super Smash Brothers Brawl.

That said, I personally prefer that a game mechanic requires the players to intelligently cooperate. However, games are so varied in focus and design, that it's hard to say. Button mashing on a quick time event or in a Warioware game would work just fine, so long the player is being told: see how well you can mash buttons.

What if I developed a game which tests the randomness of a player mashing buttons, and if a pattern emerges, they start losing points? It goes in hand with that old Zen saying about how hard it is to paint at random.