If button mashing works, is it bad game design?

[Say Anything]

What if I developed a game which tests the randomness of a player mashing buttons, and if a pattern emerges, they start losing points? It goes in hand with that old Zen saying about how hard it is to paint at random.

That's what I was thinking; I can't believe there's still no punishment for mashing buttons. Maybe having, like, energy points, and depending on how powerful of an attack it is, you'd lose points. If you spam all your points away, you're left defenseless. The points could regenerate over time, at a fast pace so that it wouldn't be too noticeable.

 

[geldonyetich]

That's what I was thinking; I can't believe there's still no punishment for mashing buttons. Maybe having, like, energy points, and depending on how powerful of an attack it is, you'd lose points. If you spam all your points away, you're left defenseless. The points could regenerate over time, at a fast pace so that it wouldn't be too noticeable.

The main trouble I could see with such a design is it'd be punishing the players for being too new to understand what the right button to press is, or it would be punishing the players for their hand slipping. Either way, people are going to feel a tad offended, and probably bolt and play something less fascist.

 

[Say Anything]

That's what I was thinking; I can't believe there's still no punishment for mashing buttons. Maybe having, like, energy points, and depending on how powerful of an attack it is, you'd lose points. If you spam all your points away, you're left defenseless. The points could regenerate over time, at a fast pace so that it wouldn't be too noticeable.

The main trouble I could see with such a design is it'd be punishing the players for being too new to understand what the right button to press is, or it would be punishing the players for their hand slipping. Either way, people are going to feel a tad offended, and probably bolt and play something less fascist.

Makes sense, but that's where you can put the stress on a tutorial - force them to play an in-depth yet non-boring tutorial to get accquianted to the game, stress the fact that it's very important but don't force users to play it.

Just hope they don't blindly rush into the game or quit playing it because they have such a hatred towards tutorials.

 

[StickManRampage]

It depends, for example, i no that soul calibur 4 has a move that is a 32 button combo, so if its button mashing to dish out an intense combo then no. if ur just a noob tryin to beat ppl and it works, then yes.

 

[Fox1789]

i do agree that these games aren't that good because if you can just push any button you can rapidly to beat someone it is way too easy, a good game presents a good challenge

also, i just think it is hilarious when someone who works hard learning the combos in these games gets furious when someone who button mashes beats them

 

[Woe Is You]

The main thing when playing against a button masher in a fighting game is that you should just be patient and wait till your opponent trips. Which they will, since almost every character in just about any fighting game contains moves that appear useless unless you know how to use them. Taunts are a good example of this. Trying to dodge and parry attacks is useless since the whole idea of those is to punish a person that's being predictable, which button mashers never are since they don't even know themselves what they're doing. Just hitting with a few well aimed high powered moves and then running usually does the job.

Of course, my method isn't very fun for the opponent, but it works on button mashers if you aren't worried about them actually having fun. And of course this method of play falls apart around when your opponent actually learns the game. I tend not to play against total beginners, not because I look down on them, but because I either get accused of being a killjoy or not taking the game seriously enough.

Higher levels of competitive play in fighting games is actually an experience that many people have not seen or even played like. Timing and memorization is essential however there is a chess playing element where you have to know the attemped combo by your opponent in order to know where the break is or what combo you should be trying to do in opposition.

It's a whole metagame unto itself that is as complex as chess.

A common mistake a lot of people make is that combos are the be all and end all of fighting games. They aren't, they simply are a tool to be used to punish someone doing stupid things. Zoning is important as is knowing your opponent (and their character). Securing the opportunity to land a combo is actually far more important than the combo itself (which, at the end of the day, is a menial task).

 

[Say Anything]

Higher levels of competitive play in fighting games is actually an experience that many people have not seen or even played like. Timing and memorization is essential however there is a chess playing element where you have to know the attemped combo by your opponent in order to know where the break is or what combo you should be trying to do in opposition.

It's a whole metagame unto itself that is as complex as chess.

A common mistake a lot of people make is that combos are the be all and end all of fighting games. They aren't, they simply are a tool to be used to punish someone doing stupid things. Zoning is important as is knowing your opponent (and their character). Securing the opportunity to land a combo is actually far more important than the combo itself (which, at the end of the day, is a menial task).

That's the most effective strategy I think; I did good if I kept my distance and waited for an opening. Problem is, they're such small stages, so I don't have too much room to work with.

Ironically, I was just listening to some DC (haha, sue me) and he had a joke that perfectly fits with this topic.

"The guy got hit right in the hip. That's your center of gravity. That can send you flipping through the air like Eddy Gordo from Tekken, when someone doesn't know how to do combos and they're just hitting the buttons randomly."

haha

 

[PirateKing]

Well...yeah...
After hearing yahtzee explain why he doesn't like fighting games I think I finally realized why I always felt unfulfilled after beating one.
The only series I've ever really liked is the Smash Bros. series. My friends and I discovered enought nuances to that game that we moved beyond button mashing as a viable defense.

 

[samsprinkle]

I think this argument...while correct in my eyes...is not really correct. Camping for instance (suits my games better) while annoying and gay is a valid tactic that is effective and would probably be what I would do in real life. Now I don't like fighting games online because people abuse the hell out of button mashing, but I can't go to them and say, "Your a loser and can't play the game correctly!", because quite clearly, they just beat me...

 

[mark_n_b]

See, this is why graphics don't matter in a game.

Not true, play the original Civilization and tell me graphics don't matter, they can be so bad that they hamper gameplay.

What I meant is better graphics don't always mean better game and rating always seem to go up with graphics.

That is however not what you said. Mechanics are the most important component of a game, but art, sound, story are all very important components in the experience. And frankly, whenever someone says something along the lines of "graphics don't matter" I agree that it has to be challenged.

As for the OP, button mashing doesn't have to mean poor game design. Slashers like Samurai Warriors make use of button mashing dynamics in a fairly entertaining manner. It is not something that allots much for dynamic game-play or potential for system growth, but there has been a lot of Samurai Warrior type titles put out there.

As for fighters, button mashing usually results in random moves being executed and executed constantly. If you used side stepping and blocking effectively you would stand a reasonable chance against button mashing in Soul Caliber. As a fighter Soul Caliber is fairly slow moving with a dynamic that favours continual followed up attack. As such, if a button masher lands a blow, chances are they will land seven or eight and take out a large segment of your health bar. Bad design? Given that a skilled player could block and counter a button masher for several hits, not so much.


Button mashing can be used as a game dynamic, fighters do not use this kind of dynamic (to my knowledge) and a fighter is a situation where this kind of game dynamic shouldn't make any sort of big appearance, but in a fighter situation like the OP describes, this is not an example of poor mechanics so much as an example of skills that need to be achieved.

I haven't ruled out the possibility that your sister is a halfway decent gamer and you just don't want to admit she wasn't button mashing and still managed to beat you.

 

[Say Anything]

See, this is why graphics don't matter in a game.

Not true, play the original Civilization and tell me graphics don't matter, they can be so bad that they hamper gameplay.

What I meant is better graphics don't always mean better game and rating always seem to go up with graphics.

Button mashing can be used as a game dynamic, fighters do not use this kind of dynamic (to my knowledge) and a fighter is a situation where this kind of game dynamic shouldn't make any sort of big appearance, but in a fighter situation like the OP describes, this is not an example of poor mechanics so much as an example of skills that need to be achieved.

I haven't ruled out the possibility that your sister is a halfway decent gamer and you just don't want to admit she wasn't button mashing and still managed to beat you.

I guess not everybody will see things the way I do and I can't change that, but you don't think it's even a bit weird that someone who's never picked up the game before could easily/randomly beat someone who's been playing for hours? Seems a bit ridiculous to me.

As for your last paragraph, it's kind of odd that you would jump to such an offensive and unsupported conclusion, but if you want to go ahead and trust me I'll just tell you your accusation is wrong. Sorry, I'm not a story teller seeking to put boring, false scenarios into the minds of people I don't know.

 

[willard3]

Or you can go play Def Jam Fight For NY. That game punishes button mashers and combo spammers like no other. Plus you can flail all you want, and you won't be able to actually KO anybody unless you are deliberate. (Literally...only the Streetfighting style allows you to button mash win).

 

[Sensenmann]

Button mashing (as in "PRESS THE KEY AS MANY TIMES AS YOU CAN!!!!" is bad for many as some people cannot (due to disability such as Raynauds Phenomenon (which I have) or other circulatory disorders) mash keys that quick, occasionaly stopping them from progressing in the game altogether (I do believe this has happened to me once).

 

[chimmers]

What if I developed a game which tests the randomness of a player mashing buttons, and if a pattern emerges, they start losing points? It goes in hand with that old Zen saying about how hard it is to paint at random.

That's what I was thinking; I can't believe there's still no punishment for mashing buttons. Maybe having, like, energy points, and depending on how powerful of an attack it is, you'd lose points. If you spam all your points away, you're left defenseless. The points could regenerate over time, at a fast pace so that it wouldn't be too noticeable.

I think this could work. Fight Night kinda as the same idea, the stamina gauge goes down with missed punches. Obviously something a little less realistic may be required for these games..

 

[JMeganSnow]

What games *are* there where you can regularly achieve success by mashing random buttons?

From what I've seen, hitting random buttons means you'll be taking a long walk off the fail pier. Heck, even when I *try* to use combos etc. it usually means a long walk off the fail pier.

I think games need better feedback between what buttons you push and what your character does. Too often the problem is concealed by other side effects of what's going on in the environment. I have no problem if reeling from a blow means that your character blocks *ineffectively*, but for goodness sake at least have some visual "I'm trying to block but it's not working!" feedback when I hit the button so I don't mash it and then every other button 45 times in a desperate effort to compel *some* sort of action, then wind up taking a double gainer off a cliff because the computer registered that R before anything else. That's just infuriating. What's doubly infuriating is that there doesn't seem to be any common protocol between whether the system registers *the first button you pushed* before the status effect took over or *the first one you pushed when it ended*, (or, heck, just whatever happened to get through first) turning combat in fast-paced games into a crapshoot.

I thought the point of those games was to get some use out of speedy reflexes. What's the point when the character's reflexes are enforced to be MUCH slower than the player's?

 

[Say Anything]

What games *are* there where you can regularly achieve success by mashing random buttons?

Tekken and Soul Calibur both make it possible to beat the arcade/story modes just by mashing buttons fairly easily.

Never played Def Jam or Fight Night; I suppose I can try them out when I can scrape up some money.

 

[Xpwn3ntial]

Yes. It kills controllers.

 

[TheMushroomClub]

Yes. It's not intuitive at all. I happen to own a copy of Soul Calibur 2 for GC and it doesn't matter which buttons you press (except for pause).