If DeSantis wins

Phoenixmgs

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No objection there.

No, that's not how it works.
Then what very general system would they be for?

Okay. So why do you think it's fine for Florida to pass laws insisting that a person's pronoun depends on their assigned birth sex if assigned birth sex does not determine someone's pronoun?
It's just like Silvanus again... Because people use pronouns based on biological sex, sex at birth is a super accurate way to determine biological sex, hence why the law dictates sex at birth (because it's super accurate and on official documents). There's tons of other features that people can identify biological sex with so they don't need to check your genitals (or birth certificate) before using a pronoun.
 

Bedinsis

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Then what very general system would they be for?
I don't know and I prefer not to speculate on other people's politics. Ask them. Maybe whatever version of society that comes after capitalism?
 

Silvanus

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Sex at birth is a way of determining biological sex (at birth). Biological sex has lots of specific features.

You can't change wingspan... foot size...
Neither of which are used to determine sex. These are just characteristics that have a relatively weak correlation.

You are the sex you are. You can't identify as a different sex.
You can quite effectively change most physical characteristics of sex. I find no issue agreeing that someone can change their sex-- and plenty of legal systems and medical institutions agree.
 

Silvanus

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Why would I bother to prove you were wrong in the face of you conceding the argument anyway?
You said I had held a certain position. I said I hadn't.

I then provided a direct quote showing that I had already made clear that wasn't my position. And you then failed to provide anything to show i had ever expressed the position. In short, another tiresome strawman.

Anyway. For you to believe what I said constitutes "conceding the argument", you have to believe the position i expressed is equivalent to yours: 1) "Context and observation play a role"; and 2) "There is little more to it than context and observation". Hmm... they look like very obviously different statements to me.
 

Phoenixmgs

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I don't know and I prefer not to speculate on other people's politics. Ask them. Maybe whatever version of society that comes after capitalism?
Those are the 3 systems unless they invented their own somehow.

Neither of which are used to determine sex. These are just characteristics that have a relatively weak correlation.



You can quite effectively change most physical characteristics of sex. I find no issue agreeing that someone can change their sex-- and plenty of legal systems and medical institutions agree.
Again, tons of things are used to determine sex in real life. You aren't looking in someone's pants before you use "he/she".

Plenty disagree was well.

So, again, for like the 100th time are you OK with letting people use sex for pronouns and letting people use gender for pronouns? Without the stupid caveat of you saying people are "enforcing your notions of identity on them" that isn't true?
 

Ag3ma

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It's just like Silvanus again... Because people use pronouns based on biological sex, sex at birth is a super accurate way to determine biological sex, hence why the law dictates sex at birth (because it's super accurate and on official documents).
I get the feeling from your posts of someone who is arguing without even knowing what he's trying to argue.
 

Silvanus

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Again, tons of things are used to determine sex in real life. You aren't looking in someone's pants before you use "he/she".
Indeed. And all the ones that you use can be changed.

So, again, for like the 100th time are you OK with letting people use sex for pronouns and letting people use gender for pronouns?
And for the 100th time, you can use pronouns however you want. So long as you don't start ascribing them to other people, overriding their sense of their own identity.
 

Phoenixmgs

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Indeed. And all the ones that you use can be changed.



And for the 100th time, you can use pronouns however you want. So long as you don't start ascribing them to other people, overriding their sense of their own identity.
Nope.

And if someone is using sex, then they can't be ascribing identity onto anyone. You keep this caveat in just to be an ass at this point or troll or you literally don't understand the difference between what someone is and what they identify as.
 

Silvanus

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Cool argument.

And if someone is using sex, then they can't be ascribing identity onto anyone. You keep this caveat in just to be an ass at this point or troll or you literally don't understand the difference between what someone is and what they identify as.
A pronoun is an expression of identification. It's unavoidable that ascribing one to someone is making a judgement about their identity.
 

tstorm823

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I then provided a direct quote showing that I had already made clear that wasn't my position. And you then failed to provide anything to show i had ever expressed the position. In short, another tiresome strawman.
You provided quotes that half-suggested what you are saying now, after I already quoted you multiple times saying things much more strongly suggestive of the inverse. If the inverse is not what you meant, so be it, but requiring further communication to clarify seemingly contradictory statements in not a strawman. The way you've represented me clearly is. You don't need me to tell you that observation doesn't transform people, you just wanted to ascribe a stupid position to me.
Anyway. For you to believe what I said constitutes "conceding the argument", you have to believe the position i expressed is equivalent to yours.
Let me put it this way: you told Pheonixmgs that people have no claim over each other's identity. So if Phoenix identifies as left-wing, how would you respond to that?
 

Gergar12

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The American public and parts of the democratic and republican parties are dangerously naive about international relations' role in homeland security.

If you disengage from the world like progressives, and pareo-conservatives want you to, the world is a small place, and any country can build a drone, develop an ICBM, or straight up just shoot American tourists.

Let's say we leave our hundreds of known military bases, and use our navy to guard the US. We take all American companies, and tell them to shut up, and put jobs in America, and only America.

One scenario of what would happen is that some power like China would take over and control the world's oceans(that is the least bad of our options), and they would become the most powerful country in the world, and we would stagnate in power, well-being, and technology. And it wouldn't be all sunshine, and rainbows because in the beginning they would encounter beginner problems with their Navy, and soldiers who would die in the thousands against drone attacks, and attacks on shipping. All the countries with a grudge against the US would start building ICBMS, and start handing them out like candy to proxies, and we could see cities in the US being hit by ICBMs from say North Korea because just like the bomber always gets through, some ICBM, drones, and terrorist attacks would always get through.

Another scenario is some fascist country-based power like Turkey(Just an example, I don't know who would reach their apex in a less US ordered World) would conquer all countries with no nukes in their region, and start getting more resources, and eventually when they start conquering, and conquering, and conquering, and reach Europe, and we could see European countries and said fascistic power start nuking each other, conventional wars, and or just genocide of some group in the fascist empire.

The worst scenario is some jackass like this guy would start handing out nuclear technology like candy to countries that hate the US, and they would hand nukes of their proxies, and we would see a nuclear attack on an American harbor or City.

.

There is no disengaging from the world, the real children are people like Tucker Carlson who thinks once the US leaves the world alone the world will leave us alone. That's not happening.
 

Thaluikhain

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If you disengage from the world like progressives, and pareo-conservatives want you to, the world is a small place, and any country can build a drone, develop an ICBM, or straight up just shoot American tourists.
Do progressives want the US to disengage from the world?

All the countries with a grudge against the US would start building ICBMS, and start handing them out like candy to proxies, and we could see cities in the US being hit by ICBMs from say North Korea because just like the bomber always gets through, some ICBM, drones, and terrorist attacks would always get through.
At which point the US suddenly isn't disengaged with the world, and the country responsible, and one or two others, suddenly stops being a country.

It'd also likely cause a world economic crisis that'd hurt the US's rivals such as China. China has a vested interest in a slow and steady economic dominance of the world, without nuclear interruptions.

Another scenario is some fascist country-based power like Turkey(Just an example, I don't know who would reach their apex in a less US ordered World) would conquer all countries with no nukes in their region, and start getting more resources, and eventually when they start conquering, and conquering, and conquering, and reach Europe, and we could see European countries and said fascistic power start nuking each other, conventional wars, and or just genocide of some group in the fascist empire.
Also seems unlikely, wars for land haven't proven useful for developed countries for quite some time, and your scenario also relies on everyone else not approaching the problem.


Having said all that, your basic point that the US is part of the world is certainly true. International trade is important for everyone, and politics and military issues are intertwined with it. The US's dominant role in the world has, IMHO, allowed it to get away with having all sorts of problems that would have spelt disaster for countries without that advantage, though they still might if not addressed.
 

Silvanus

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You provided quotes that half-suggested what you are saying now, after I already quoted you multiple times saying things much more strongly suggestive of the inverse. If the inverse is not what you meant, so be it, but requiring further communication to clarify seemingly contradictory statements in not a strawman.
I never once said anything indicating that observation/context play zero role whatsoever. And when I asked you to provide a quote showing the position you ascribed to me, you couldn't.

I see now you're talking about statements being "strongly suggestive" of a position rather than expressing it explicitly. That would be fine, of course-- if you hadn't earlier tried to argue that rhe phrase "X is little more than Y" actually leaves room for X to involve significant stuff other than Y. Talk about strongly suggestive!

Let me put it this way: you told Pheonixmgs that people have no claim over each other's identity. So if Phoenix identifies as left-wing, how would you respond to that?
Phoenixmgs does identify as left-wing, as far as i know. I don't really know enough about him-- an essential stranger on the Internet-- to gainsay that.
 

Silvanus

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Lol, liar.
"Anyone with a different approach to me must be lying"

To be clear: I don't really mean that I'd just take someone's word for it, regardless of how they'd acted or what they'd said. There are more than a few people for whom I'd guess they were right-wing even if they described themselves as left-wing. Phoenixmgs isn't one of them; he's often unfocused, or loses track of his own argument, so I wouldn't be surprised if he was generally left-wing but had just gone down a bit of a rabbit hole with certain specific topics.

The reason I wouldn't always just take someone's word for it is that someone's actions and statements can belie other things they claim, if there's an extreme dissonance. Which is quite a different thing from judging them on appearance.
 

Ag3ma

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The American public and parts of the democratic and republican parties are dangerously naive about international relations' role in homeland security.
Broadly, I'm inclined to agree. The USA's retirement from the world stage will ultimately only result in its stagnation and increasing economic, political and military diminution, which could even pose a long-term threat to the USA. However, should the USA retire from global interaction, all those hostile powers you refer to like North Korea would see little reason to attack it or its citizens: they'll be busy aiming their guns and bombs at the new global powers that rush to fill the gap vacated by the USA and start squeezing them instead. There may be a great deal of legacy distaste towards the USA across much of the world for its past actions in such a future, but it would pale into insignificance compared to a contemporary threat.

I do not agree that most progressives want the USA to become isolationist. They wish it to use its power and influence more benevolently: favour international growth, amity, and development rather than economic and military coercion. This may potentially be naive because at least some other countries aren't necessarily going to have the same benevolence in return: they're just going to take those benefits and turn them to their own selfish ends to dominate others.

I'm also doubtful that nuclear war is more likely. I do not see any global powers keen for nuclear arms anywhere: both in that it poses a substantial global risk and that as nuclear powers, they too would intend to use that advantage for themselves. As a result I think they would continue policies of vigorously dissuading nuclear arms development.

I'm also doubtful there would be that much large-scale conquering. I think the essence of nationalism is embedded such that populations will not accept empires in the way they once did, and the effort of controlling territories filled with resentful, independence-minded populations more trouble than it's worth. There may be some capture of strategic border territories (e.g. as China is attempting in the South China Sea and Pacific), and subduing countries to emplace favourable regimes (e.g. as the USA/UK did with Iraq), but wholesale conquest and direct rule is very unlikely.
 

tstorm823

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The reason I wouldn't always just take someone's word for it is that someone's actions and statements can belie other things they claim, if there's an extreme dissonance.
To summarize things you've said: observers matter, context matters, interpretation matters, and should that observer see a dissonance between the individual's stated identity and their actual characteristics or behavior, they may question the validity of that identity.

I'm pretty sure "You have zero ownership or claim to someone else's identity" has died several times in this thread. Pretty sure that idea is long gone.
 

Elijin

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Phoenix does identify as left wing. He has stated that many times. To deny that he does, would be a lie.

Whether his views and arguments align to his sense of identity, is an internal matter for him to reflect on.
 

Silvanus

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To summarize things you've said: observers matter, context matters, interpretation matters, and should that observer see a dissonance between the individual's stated identity and their actual characteristics or behavior, they may question the validity of that identity.

I'm pretty sure "You have zero ownership or claim to someone else's identity" has died several times in this thread. Pretty sure that idea is long gone.
What I'm getting from this is that you fail to comprehend the obvious differences between actions demonstrating an individual's principles and appearance demonstrating an individual's gender identity. Would have thought the differences were clear as day.

The only position that's died several times is "identity is little more than external perception", which you've apparently completely dropped-- though without acknowledgement that anything changed.