If DeSantis wins

Phoenixmgs

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Phoenixmgs does identify as left-wing, as far as i know. I don't really know enough about him-- an essential stranger on the Internet-- to gainsay that.
Phoenix does identify as left wing. He has stated that many times. To deny that he does, would be a lie.

Whether his views and arguments align to his sense of identity, is an internal matter for him to reflect on.
As I've said many times, I'd be for probably 90% of Denmark/Sweden policy basically copy/pasted to the US so whatever you wanna interpret that to be, go ahead. I don't really care for labels and I'm for whatever makes the most sense (sometimes that is left, sometimes that is right).
 

Phoenixmgs

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"The main definition"? You mean the informal summary that Google presented you with?
That's the #1 definition of "he" whether using some "informal" Oxford definition, which it isn't. Or you can go to Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, Collins, Britannica, etc. It's almost what you'd call a "scientific consensus" that sex is the main definition for pronouns.
 

tstorm823

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The only position that's died several times is "identity is little more than external perception", which you've apparently completely dropped-- though without acknowledgement that anything changed.
A) It's weird how proud you are of your own words imposed upon me.
B) What have I said contradicting that yes?
 

Silvanus

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That's the #1 definition of "he" whether using some "informal" Oxford definition, which it isn't. Or you can go to Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, Collins, Britannica, etc. It's almost what you'd call a "scientific consensus" that sex is the main definition for pronouns.
Firstly, uhrm no, dictionaries do not provide a "scientific consensus". Just absolute lol to that.

Secondly, I've already pointed out that Google doesn't provide the full Oxford definition, which has ~22 usages listed.

Thirdly, I've also already provided the definition from Cambridge showing it allows for someone who identifies as a man regardless of their biological sex. So you're categorically wrong about that.

Edit: just checked Merriam-Webster, and they also explicitly allow for it to refer to someone whose /gender identity/ is male! Did you just throw names of dictionaries without realising they contradicted you?!
 
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Silvanus

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A) It's weird how proud you are of your own words imposed upon me.
You voluntarily agreeing with a position is me "imposing" it on you? You didn't have to say that, you know, nobody made you.

B) What have I said contradicting that yes?
Recall that after being presented with a half dozen definitions that emphasised the sense of self & characteristics, you then tried to weakly argue that "little more than X" leaves room for significant stuff other than X.
 

tstorm823

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You voluntarily agreeing with a position is me "imposing" it on you? You didn't have to say that, you know, nobody made you.
Yeah, but spending time overanalyzing the words that you strung together is a little funny, isn't it? Like, you're not getting any insight into me or what I think by nitpicking the exact particular sentence you formulated yourself.
Recall that after being presented with a half dozen definitions that emphasised the sense of self & characteristics, you then tried to weakly argue that "little more than X" leaves room for significant stuff other than X.
It does. If you care to go back way before you said that thing I agreed to without you understanding why, my precise words on the topic were: "Sense of self and identity are slightly different concepts." Those are the words from my mind, not anything about sense of self not mattering.

External perception is not independent from characteristics, and internal perception is not independent from external perception. The way people see you is going to be largely based on who and what you are. The way you see yourself is going to have a bases in both who you are and in how people treat you.

If you know the way someone is seen by others, you know the majority of their identity. There really is little to identity beyond than what is observed or observable externally. There is more external contribution to identity than there is the limited secrets a human heart can hold inside. But the same can be said the other way, the overlapping nature of external and internal perception will generally make it so there is very little to your identity that you are not aware of internally. Identity, self-image, and external perception are all circles on a Venn-Diagram that overlap a ton, with just slivers of identity unique to external or internal perception while the rest overlaps with both. To say that identity is little more than external perception is not to say that it is very little internal.
 

Silvanus

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Yeah, but spending time overanalyzing the words that you strung together is a little funny, isn't it? Like, you're not getting any insight into me or what I think by nitpicking the exact particular sentence you formulated yourself.
The back-and-forth would be quite unnecessary if you'd have just said that's not what you meant/believe. Instead you've defended that specific position to the absolute hilt.

But really, if you're now at the point of trying to argue what you agreed with isn't indicative of your position, then that's essentially concession.

It does. If you care to go back way before you said that thing I agreed to without you understanding why, my precise words on the topic were: "Sense of self and identity are slightly different concepts." Those are the words from my mind, not anything about sense of self not mattering.
Yes, I'm quite aware you've taken several quite different positions throughout the thread. Or made statements that are "strongly suggestive" of contradictory positions, if you'd prefer.

External perception is not independent from characteristics, and internal perception is not independent from external perception. The way people see you is going to be largely based on who and what you are. The way you see yourself is going to have a bases in both who you are and in how people treat you.
How odd, then, that you objected so strenuously when I said one's characteristics are the most reliable basis for comparisons and observations-- considering that's pretty much the position you've now come to!

If you know the way someone is seen by others, you know the majority of their identity. There really is little to identity beyond than what is observed or observable externally.
Really? So, say someone transitions, and takes on the appearance of the opposite sex-- in informal terms, they "pass". Without them specifically mentioning they're trans, observers see their adopted sex anyway.

Then you'd agree there's "little to their [sex] identity" other than their adopted sex?
 

Phoenixmgs

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Firstly, uhrm no, dictionaries do not provide a "scientific consensus". Just absolute lol to that.

Secondly, I've already pointed out that Google doesn't provide the full Oxford definition, which has ~22 usages listed.

Thirdly, I've also already provided the definition from Cambridge showing it allows for someone who identifies as a man regardless of their biological sex. So you're categorically wrong about that.

Edit: just checked Merriam-Webster, and they also explicitly allow for it to refer to someone whose /gender identity/ is male! Did you just throw names of dictionaries without realising they contradicted you?!
That's why I put it in quotes... You love saying this and that is scientific consensus when it's not (and only consensus in your echo chamber). But when literally every of the 5+ main dictionaries say pronouns are sex-based as the main definition, that doesn't meet the guidelines for consensus in your world somehow. You can't use both definitions because they are contradictory so you have to choose. If someone uses pronouns based on sex (the main definition), they can't also use pronouns based on gender at the same time and vice verse. Let people use pronouns how they want (whether sex or gender based) and stop acting like people who use sex-based pronouns are ascribing identity onto others (aka your bullshit caveat).

Huh?
1704487183796.png
 

Silvanus

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But when literally every of the 5+ main dictionaries say pronouns are sex-based as the main definition, that doesn't meet the guidelines for consensus in your world somehow. You can't use both definitions because they are contradictory so you have to choose.
"Main definition", "have to choose"... wait, are you seriously under the impression that the earlier definition in a dictionary is somehow more legitimate or 'main' than the others? That's not how dictionaries work. At all.

The dictionaries you yourself quoted said pronouns can be based on gender identity. Sorry.
 

tstorm823

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How odd, then, that you objected so strenuously when I said one's characteristics are the most reliable basis for comparisons and observations
My objection was that external observation is the most reliable way to assess objective characteristics. Your point only makes sense if you can magically know objective truth.
Really? So, say someone transitions, and takes on the appearance of the opposite sex-- in informal terms, they "pass". Without them specifically mentioning they're trans, observers see their adopted sex anyway.

Then you'd agree there's "little to their [sex] identity" other than their adopted sex?
First, I'm questioning whether you've ever interacted with people if you think that's how people think.
Second, I would not agree to the way you've phrased that, because it doesn't make sense if you apply it to a specific thing. There's not "little to their sex identity other than their adopted sex", rather you've found part of the little section of overall identity that goes beyond what is agreed to or determined by external perception. That opposite sex perception is undoubtedly part of their identity if people see them that way (which most people aren't going around thinking "oh, look at that person's sex, how notable that sex is"), but there are aspects of that piece of identity also based in self-image and actual characteristics.

You're treating it as "most of every individual aspect is determined by perception", but the statement I agreed to was about identity as a whole, where the majority of aspects collectively are determined externally, that doesn't disallow an individual aspect of being totally independent from perception.
 

Phoenixmgs

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"Main definition", "have to choose"... wait, are you seriously under the impression that the earlier definition in a dictionary is somehow more legitimate or 'main' than the others? That's not how dictionaries work. At all.

The dictionaries you yourself quoted said pronouns can be based on gender identity. Sorry.
You think word definitions are just in some random order? How did the sex-based definition of pronouns come first in every dictionary? It's like how the main definition of diet doesn't mean what people usually refer to as "going on a diet"; your diet is just what you eat.

How can you use pronouns based on both sex AND gender? They are contradictory so you have to choose unless you're going use 2 pronouns for everyone. You say that you use pronouns based on gender (to not ascribe identity onto people!!!) so how are you then using pronouns based on sex at the same time?
 

Elijin

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Pretty sure dictionaries 'rank' definitions by usage, which is why words with multiple entries can have their order change as usage goes in and out of style.
 
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Ag3ma

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Pretty sure dictionaries 'rank' definitions by usage, which is why words with multiple entries can have their order change as usage goes in and out of style.
Frequently, yes. Although it varies, some do it chronologically (i.e. first established use of the word historically). Defnitions may also be arranged in meaning clusters where related definitions are placed together, even though some of the individual meanings within that cluster may be rarer (/ newer) than successive definitions which are in other clusters.
 

Silvanus

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My objection was that external observation is the most reliable way to assess objective characteristics. Your point only makes sense if you can magically know objective truth.
Really? External observation is a better way to judge (for instance) someone's orientation, or gender identity, than their own mind?

Second, I would not agree to the way you've phrased that, because it doesn't make sense if you apply it to a specific thing. There's not "little to their sex identity other than their adopted sex", rather you've found part of the little section of overall identity that goes beyond what is agreed to or determined by external perception. That opposite sex perception is undoubtedly part of their identity if people see them that way (which most people aren't going around thinking "oh, look at that person's sex, how notable that sex is"), but there are aspects of that piece of identity also based in self-image and actual characteristics.
This is an extremely muddled paragraph that seems to essentially boil down to concession that external perception divorced from actual characteristics and self-image ain't worth much.

You're treating it as "most of every individual aspect is determined by perception", but the statement I agreed to was about identity as a whole, where the majority of aspects collectively are determined externally, that doesn't disallow an individual aspect of being totally independent from perception.
K. I mean, I think most people would agree that things like gender, orientation, career/ aspiration, etc are more significant to one's identity than the clothes they happen to be wearing or where they happen to be standing.
 

Silvanus

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You think word definitions are just in some random order?
Dictionaries rank their definitions by how commonly they come up in day to day life. That doesn't mean an earlier definition somehow trumps the definitions below or has more validity. They're all valid usages.

You insisted for ages that dictionaries only endorsed pronouns for physical sex. You were categorically wrong.
 

Silvanus

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It's better than if I just asked "so, you're saying you sniff your own farts?" Every post, ad infinitum.
You've strawmanned me into oblivion for several pages now, so not that far off.