If DeSantis wins

[Phoenixmgs]

Indeed there's not. But I very much doubt you'd find many people who'd believe that if someone's sex and identified gender were both male, they should be given female pronouns of they happened to look feminine.



OK. But to be clear: when you said sex-based pronouns were "literally the definition" and that's why you use them that way-- you're now acknowledging that gender identity-based pronouns are also "literally the definition"?



And I've answered it so many times, yet each time you ignore the answer and then just ask again a few posts later.

You are the one who chose to equate the assigned sex at birth with someone's sex in general. You made that equation. So it's relevant to point out the flaws in it.



Really? What do you use to ascribe pronouns outside of body morphology? Are you running chromosomal tests?



Then you'll still be making the judgement that their sex is more important as an aspect of identity than their gender.

If they feel that way, fine. If they don't and you're making that judgement for them, then you've overstepped and acted presumptuously and rudely.

Did people call Miss Doubtfire 'he'?

1) They literally are the definition (regardless of order of definitions)
2) I do think definitions are order by priority, but not in the way they trump one another
3) It doesn't change the point of the debate

Because sex at birth is biological sex...

Huh?

Oh, the "can" was supposed to be "can't". It's not about whether sex is more important than gender if the person decided to use pronouns based on sex, they aren't making some statement about sex being more important, they are just saying a fucking pronoun.

You've spent several pages insisting that we MUST choose sex OR gender-based pronouns as a rule, they contradict, we can't use both/either. You've insisted that repeatedly.

Then you acknowledge yet again that you're actually fine making exceptions to the 'sex-based' approach. Just so long as they're purely superficial reasons.

That about cover it?

Yeah, I've said that several times. People use sex mainly but if someone has gone so far to change so much, they now look more like the other sex, that's what pronoun people will use. But that question won't be on a poll. It's not some pure black and white thing that you're making it out to be. How many times have I posted the MIss Piggy clip now and said that's how people do pronouns?

 

[Silvanus]

Did people call Miss Doubtfire 'he'?

Have no idea what point you think you're making here.

1) They literally are the definition (regardless of order of definitions)

Yes-- sex-based pronouns are literally the definition, in the same way that gender-based pronouns are also literally the definition. So if they're both the definition, it doesn't make sense to pick one "because it's the definition". Your given reason for choosing one applies to both equally.

Because sex at birth is biological sex...

So if that's a part of your position, then don't whine when I point out A) sex at birth is usually determined just by external genitalia, and B) external genitalia can be changed. It's your position that made that observation relevant.

Huh?

God, its so hard to follow your posts when you don't cut the post you're quoting up, and just dump non-sequential responses in one big continuous splurge.

What does "huh" respond to? Is it the bit about how you assign pronouns? You said that not all the characteristics you use to assign pronouns are changeable. I'd like to know what those are-- what are you using aside from morphology? Morphology accounts for pretty much all superficially apparent traits, and it's all highly changeable.

Yeah, I've said that several times. People use sex mainly but if someone has gone so far to change so much, they now look more like the other sex, that's what pronoun people will use. But that question won't be on a poll. It's not some pure black and white thing that you're making it out to be. How many times have I posted the MIss Piggy clip now and said that's how people do pronouns?

So when you said you absolutely have to choose one definition or the other-- sex or gender-- because they're mutually exclusive... you've dropped that position now? Because it's directly contradictory to this position you're taking now, that one can use an approach sometimes but make exceptions and use the other approach then.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Have no idea what point you think you're making here.



Yes-- sex-based pronouns are literally the definition, in the same way that gender-based pronouns are also literally the definition. So if they're both the definition, it doesn't make sense to pick one "because it's the definition". Your given reason for choosing one applies to both equally.



So if that's a part of your position, then don't whine when I point out A) sex at birth is usually determined just by external genitalia, and B) external genitalia can be changed. It's your position that made that observation relevant.



God, its so hard to follow your posts when you don't cut the post you're quoting up, and just dump non-sequential responses in one big continuous splurge.

What does "huh" respond to? Is it the bit about how you assign pronouns? You said that not all the characteristics you use to assign pronouns are changeable. I'd like to know what those are-- what are you using aside from morphology? Morphology accounts for pretty much all superficially apparent traits, and it's all highly changeable.




So when you said you absolutely have to choose one definition or the other-- sex or gender-- because they're mutually exclusive... you've dropped that position now? Because it's directly contradictory to this position you're taking now, that one can use an approach sometimes but make exceptions and use the other approach then.

Miss Doubtfire's sex and gender are male but people called her a 'she'.

You have to pick one, they are contradictory definitions.

Sex at birth determines biological sex, that doesn't mean genitals are the only physical characteristics that do so (at birth, they are, but not in adulthood).

This, I have no idea what you're talking about.
"Really? What do you use to ascribe pronouns outside of body morphology? Are you running chromosomal tests?"

Whatever sex someone looks most like is the pronoun used. That's what people do, it's not rocket science.

 

[Silvanus]

Miss Doubtfire's sex and gender are male but people called her a 'she'.

....because the character lied to people. Did you not understand the movie?

You have to pick one, they are contradictory definitions.

Then explain why you didn't have to pick one and stick with it. You've literally just told us you go by sex... but also that under some circumstances you don't.

Sex at birth determines biological sex, that doesn't mean genitals are the only physical characteristics that do so (at birth, they are, but not in adulthood).

Did you mean to contradict yourself three or four times in one sentence?

This, I have no idea what you're talking about.
"Really? What do you use to ascribe pronouns outside of body morphology? Are you running chromosomal tests?"

I don't know how much clearer I can be. You said not all the characteristics you use are changeable. So what do you use if not morphology (since morphology is changeable)?

Whatever sex someone looks most like is the pronoun used. That's what people do, it's not rocket science.

So not sex, then, and not either of the dictionary definitions. You say it's not rocket science and then, every post, contradict or argue against something you previously said.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

....because the character lied to people. Did you not understand the movie?



Then explain why you didn't have to pick one and stick with it. You've literally just told us you go by sex... but also that under some circumstances you don't.



Did you mean to contradict yourself three or four times in one sentence?



I don't know how much clearer I can be. You said not all the characteristics you use are changeable. So what do you use if not morphology (since morphology is changeable)?



So not sex, then, and not either of the dictionary definitions. You say it's not rocket science and then, every post, contradict or argue against something you previously said.

I know that movie... It's the fact people do go by physical characteristics when using pronouns.

When people are determining someone's pronouns, they are looking at that person and not a baby picture of them and use physical characteristics other then genitals obviously.

They're not all changeable...

What are you talking about? How many times have I posted the Miss Piggy clip? That is literally what everyone does. People look at you (subconsciously) to determine your sex and then use those pronouns.

 

[Silvanus]

I know that movie... It's the fact people do go by physical characteristics when using pronouns.

Right, so you're just overlooking the fact he lied to people, then. Because if they were aware that it was just Daniel pretending to gain access to his kids, everyone would have just said 'he'. The deception is literally the only reason people call him anything else. I can't believe someone failed to grasp that.

When people are determining someone's pronouns, they are looking at that person and not a baby picture of them and use physical characteristics other then genitals obviously.

So not sex, then. Do you not recognise the difference between appearance and sex?

They're not all changeable...

I've asked you repeatedly to give an example. What superficial trait, that you use to ascribe pronouns on sight, is not changeable? Please tell me.

What are you talking about? How many times have I posted the Miss Piggy clip? That is literally what everyone does. People look at you (subconsciously) to determine your sex and then use those pronouns.

You can repost whatever irrelevant waffle you want as many times as you like. It doesn't answer anything.

You said you go by sex, and that you have to pick just one way of doing it. Then you... gave an example of a situation in which you don't go by sex. So you've flatly contradicted yourself, haven't you? You're fine making exceptions to a rule-- it's just that the only exceptions you're willing to make are on purely superficial grounds.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Right, so you're just overlooking the fact he lied to people, then. Because if they were aware that it was just Daniel pretending to gain access to his kids, everyone would have just said 'he'. The deception is literally the only reason people call him anything else. I can't believe someone failed to grasp that.



So not sex, then. Do you not recognise the difference between appearance and sex?



I've asked you repeatedly to give an example. What superficial trait, that you use to ascribe pronouns on sight, is not changeable? Please tell me.



You can repost whatever irrelevant waffle you want as many times as you like. It doesn't answer anything.

You said you go by sex, and that you have to pick just one way of doing it. Then you... gave an example of a situation in which you don't go by sex. So you've flatly contradicted yourself, haven't you? You're fine making exceptions to a rule-- it's just that the only exceptions you're willing to make are on purely superficial grounds.

If you change yourself to look so much like the other sex, then people will refer to you as those pronouns, it doesn't matter if it's a deception or not.

Do you not realize tons of specific physical characteristics directly relate to sex?

Wingspan and skin would be two.

People go by what sex the person looks like the most, it's that simple.

 

[Silvanus]

If you change yourself to look so much like the other sex, then people will refer to you as those pronouns, it doesn't matter if it's a deception or not.

Of course it matters. That's what 'identifying as' something is. If you start talking about pure deception in a fictional story, then you're completely ignoring identification-- which is central to our conversation.

Do you not realize tons of specific physical characteristics directly relate to sex?

Yep. Changeable ones.

Wingspan and skin would be two.

Skin quality is changeable, usually through hormonal treatments. Armspan is not inseparable from sex: short men and tall women exist. So if you used those to assign pronouns, you'd just end up making foolish mistakes.

People go by what sex the person looks like the most, it's that simple.

So not sex, then.

We can point out that you're no longer going by "the definition" you were so insistent on. After harping on about dictionary definitions for so long, we're now in a position where my approach is in the dictionary and yours isn't.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Of course it matters. That's what 'identifying as' something is. If you start talking about pure deception in a fictional story, then you're completely ignoring identification-- which is central to our conversation.



Yep. Changeable ones.



Skin quality is changeable, usually through hormonal treatments. Armspan is not inseparable from sex: short men and tall women exist. So if you used those to assign pronouns, you'd just end up making foolish mistakes.



So not sex, then.

We can point out that you're no longer going by "the definition" you were so insistent on. After harping on about dictionary definitions for so long, we're now in a position where my approach is in the dictionary and yours isn't.

People don't care about what someone identifies as.

Skin is not completely changeable. Wingspan doesn't change based on height. A man and women of the same height, the man will have the longer wingspan. It's about proportions being off that people will subconsciously notice.

Just because someone doesn't do some biological test doesn't mean they aren't basing the pronoun on sex.

 

[Silvanus]

People don't care about what someone identifies as.

Yet Daniel identifying himself to his family as Mrs Doubtfire is the sole reason they referred to him as female.

Skin is not completely changeable.

Nor is it completely correlated with biological sex. It's changeable enough, to the point where someone undergoing HRT will often have skin more typical of the sex they are transitioning to than the sex they were born with.

Wingspan doesn't change based on height. A man and women of the same height, the man will have the longer wingspan. It's about proportions being off that people will subconsciously notice.

The difference in proportion is so minimal, and doesn't even correlate fully with sex. You're grasping at straws.

Just because someone doesn't do some biological test doesn't mean they aren't basing the pronoun on sex.

You keep saying this, and then reiterating that you simply base it on superficial characteristics, and not anything inherent or immutable to sex.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Yet Daniel identifying himself to his family as Mrs Doubtfire is the sole reason they referred to him as female.



Nor is it completely correlated with biological sex. It's changeable enough, to the point where someone undergoing HRT will often have skin more typical of the sex they are transitioning to than the sex they were born with.



The difference in proportion is so minimal, and doesn't even correlate fully with sex. You're grasping at straws.



You keep saying this, and then reiterating that you simply base it on superficial characteristics, and not anything inherent or immutable to sex.

No, it's not.

More typical but not completely the same. Also, facial hair doesn't completely disappear either.

Uncanny valley stuff is minimal as well.

There's tons of things inherent to sex. If there wasn't, why do people want to change their bodies in the 1st place?

 

[Silvanus]

No, it's not.

So you genuinely failed to comprehend the premise of the movie. Incredible.

More typical but not completely the same. Also, facial hair doesn't completely disappear either.

Lol, oh dude. Facial hair can be removed on a biological male to the exact same extent as is typical for women.

Literally all you have are loose correlations now.

Uncanny valley stuff is minimal as well.

If characteristics that turn up amongst ordinary people trigger the uncanny valley response for you, that suggests the issue is elsewhere.

There's tons of things inherent to sex. If there wasn't, why do people want to change their bodies in the 1st place?

That's for them to decide. Plenty of people don't, including some trans people.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

So you genuinely failed to comprehend the premise of the movie. Incredible.



Lol, oh dude. Facial hair can be removed on a biological male to the exact same extent as is typical for women.

Literally all you have are loose correlations now.



If characteristics that turn up amongst ordinary people trigger the uncanny valley response for you, that suggests the issue is elsewhere.



That's for them to decide. Plenty of people don't, including some trans people.

So Miss Doubtfire going to a restaurant to eat wouldn't be referred to as "she/her/ma'am"?

Skin can not be completely changed. And without laser hair removal, hormones alone do no stop facial hair.

The uncanny valley is subtle things that you notice that you know is off. Same thing when you have a person transitioning sexes, you have those minimal/subtle things that you will notice as being off.

But if no physical characteristics are inherent to either sex, why do people change physical features at all?

 

[Silvanus]

So Miss Doubtfire going to a restaurant to eat wouldn't be referred to as "she/her/ma'am"?

Mrs Doubtfire would indeed be referred to as "she/her/ma'am". Solely as a result of the deception. Which is the point of the movie.

Skin can not be completely changed. And without laser hair removal, hormones alone do no stop facial hair.

Hate to tell you this, but most women do not have absolutely flawless skin with no minuscule hair whatsoever. And lots of available treatments, including hormonal and others, can get a biological male's skin easily within the range of what is expected of the average woman.

You only have loose correlations. It's weak af.

The uncanny valley is subtle things that you notice that you know is off.

Uh-huh, I know what it is. And all the things you're citing don't trigger it. Because things like 'better than average skin quality' or 'ever so slightly different wingspan' aren't that rare-- including on cis people.

If these things trigger the uncanny valley response with you, that suggests something deeply wrong with your expectations or your ability to relate to people even slightly superficially different from yourself.

But if no physical characteristics are inherent to either sex, why do people change physical features at all?

That's for them to decide. I mean, this is kind of an absurd question. You may as well ask: "if short hair isn't inherent to humans, why do humans ever cut their hair??" -- the answer is obviously because individuals may be more comfortable with physical changes regardless of whether they're 'inherent'.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

Mrs Doubtfire would indeed be referred to as "she/her/ma'am". Solely as a result of the deception. Which is the point of the movie.



Hate to tell you this, but most women do not have absolutely flawless skin with no minuscule hair whatsoever. And lots of available treatments, including hormonal and others, can get a biological male's skin easily within the range of what is expected of the average woman.

You only have loose correlations. It's weak af.



Uh-huh, I know what it is. And all the things you're citing don't trigger it. Because things like 'better than average skin quality' or 'ever so slightly different wingspan' aren't that rare-- including on cis people.

If these things trigger the uncanny valley response with you, that suggests something deeply wrong with your expectations or your ability to relate to people even slightly superficially different from yourself.



That's for them to decide. I mean, this is kind of an absurd question. You may as well ask: "if short hair isn't inherent to humans, why do humans ever cut their hair??" -- the answer is obviously because individuals may be more comfortable with physical changes regardless of whether they're 'inherent'.

Because people base pronouns on sex and they deduce sex through appearance.

Laser hair removal wouldn't be often desired if that was the case.

I'm not implying that trans people are in the uncanny valley or looking odd. However, a transwoman doesn't completely pass the visual test of being a normal woman either.

So it's just completely random that a transwoman decides to get features that are of the female sex (I don't see any changing their bodies to look even more masculine for example)? Because you say there's no such thing as female and male physical characteristics.

 

[Silvanus]

Because people base pronouns on sex and they deduce sex through appearance.

If that's going to be your approach, then the film actually provides a perfect example against you. They assigned pronouns based on appearance (and outright deception, which you're glossing over)... and they were wrong. Their assumption was wrong. So congrats, if you insist on using Mrs Doubtfire as an example, you've given an example of how appearance isn't reliable.

Laser hair removal wouldn't be often desired if that was the case.

Laser hair removal is frequently sought by cis women. By your own logic, cis women must also have sufficient facial hair to disqualify them from looking sufficiently feminine.

I'm not implying that trans people are in the uncanny valley or looking odd. However, a transwoman doesn't completely pass the visual test of being a normal woman either.

Plenty of men look more feminine than plenty of women, and plenty of women look more masculine than plenty of men.

If you think you've successfully spotted every trans person who's passed you by, that's just because you... haven't clocked the rest.

So it's just completely random that a transwoman decides to get features that are of the female sex (I don't see any changing their bodies to look even more masculine for example)? Because you say there's no such thing as female and male physical characteristics.

Didn't say any of that whatsoever, but keep strawmanning if you want. I'll just wait for you to address the stuff I actually said.

 

[Elijin]

I'm not implying that trans people are in the uncanny valley or looking odd. However, a transwoman doesn't completely pass the visual test of being a normal woman either.

"I can always tell" mentality on full display.

This quote should be pinned next to your name like one of those "additional context for this tweet" sections.

 

[CastletonSnob]

Just think, if even half of all the voters who voted "Other" in the 2018 Florida gubernatorial election voted for Gillum, DeSantis would just be another also-ran.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

If that's going to be your approach, then the film actually provides a perfect example against you. They assigned pronouns based on appearance (and outright deception, which you're glossing over)... and they were wrong. Their assumption was wrong. So congrats, if you insist on using Mrs Doubtfire as an example, you've given an example of how appearance isn't reliable.



Laser hair removal is frequently sought by cis women. By your own logic, cis women must also have sufficient facial hair to disqualify them from looking sufficiently feminine.



Plenty of men look more feminine than plenty of women, and plenty of women look more masculine than plenty of men.

If you think you've successfully spotted every trans person who's passed you by, that's just because you... haven't clocked the rest.



Didn't say any of that whatsoever, but keep strawmanning if you want. I'll just wait for you to address the stuff I actually said.

I never said people are 100% accurate... I just said the method people use.

Not as often as transwomen.

No they don't. I have for any I've spent a somewhat lengthy time with.

You keep saying that, you're just gaslighting at this point...

Just think, if even half of all the voters who voted "Other" in the 2018 Florida gubernatorial election voted for Gillum, DeSantis would just be another also-ran.

So weird that you hate a governor from a state you don't even live in.

 

[Silvanus]

I never said people are 100% accurate... I just said the method people use.

...and in that one fictional example you've given, the character also identified himself as a woman. And as soon as his deception was exposed at the end of the film, the others immediately referred to him as Daniel again, even when he was dressed as Mrs Doubtfire for the kids' show.

Not as often as transwomen.

So yet again all you have is loose correlation. And not even really that, given that most transwomen also don't use laser hair removal surgery.

No they don't. I have for any I've spent a somewhat lengthy time with.

Yes, most people abide by traditional gender stereotypes. You think that-- and your anecdotal experience-- shows what's achievable?

You keep saying that, you're just gaslighting at this point...

No, you just have completely groundless confidence in your ability to "tell".

So weird that you hate a governor from a state you don't even live in.

You commented at great length about the urban living situation in a country you don't even live in, making judgements about what people there should do. This is more transparent hypocrisy.