If We're Going To Get The Games We Want We Will Have To Make Them Ourselves

[ninjaRiv]

I don't understand why people DON'T make their own games. Actually, it drives me nuts when people say "so make your own game" isn't a valid argument. Yes it is. Go and make your own game. Can't programme? Can't write? Can't draw? Shit, if only we had some sort of... thing that could connect millions of people all over the world with different skills. If you can do one thing you'll be able to find people all over the world willing to do the other shit. Plus, come one, you can learn a lot on the internet.

The arguments against it basically boil down to "I don't want to put in the time and work because I'm fucking lazy." or "No, I want it to be AAA and I want it RIGHT NOW."

If you've got jobs and such, great, good for you. But you mean to tell me you can';t spend five minutes a day on a script or a drawing or whatever? It's going to take a long time to make, yeah, but it'll get done. If you want actual change, you're gonna have to put in time and effort.

If you're not willing to learn, to work and to sacrifice you're not worth the internet's time with your "make games my way" shit. Yeah, a lot of work goes into making games. That much is obvious. So do that and THEN maybe your complaints would make sense and actually have weight to them.

Man. Quit making excuses and bitching.

Learn. Work. Create. Bask in own awesomeness.

 

[Erttheking]

First off, Kudos, OP in chasing your dream, and having the drive, talent, time, connections, resources, funds, etc. to make it happen.
I hope your game does everything you want it to, sincerely. Still, I gotta disagree with you. The following, however, isn't really aimed at you, it's just a rant on my view of "make your own game."

*Raises flame shields.*

Again, do note that what I'm posting after this isn't directed at anyone in particular.

This whole "If you don't like games, make your own game" ranks up there as one of the most ignorant arguments/suggestions/STFU moves I've heard in gaming controvercies.
No, seriously. It's absurdly ignorant to the nth degree. Why?
What do you know about the person it's leveled at? Not a thing most likely!
Do you know about what sort of talents, resources, or connections the person has? No?
Do you know what it takes to make your own game? No? More ignorance!

I gotta wonder how much people care at times when they lob out that notion of making one's own game?

It's akin to saying "What? Don't like your car? Build your own!"
"Don't like a movie? Make your own!"
It's pretty absurd, even in this day and age.

Said suggestion assumes a -lot- about a person. A lot of those assumptions are going to be false. I.E. they have the time, talent, drive, funds, resources, etc. to make a game.

And even if a person decides to make their own game, I'm hard pressed to understand how they would enjoy it as they know every nuance of the game, and know it better than anyone else. They know how to break the game, and make optimal runs immediately. It kinda sucks out the magic of discovery.

What about people who have lofty goals like making a game that kicks the conventional wisdoms of the gaming industry in the teeth? Say, oh, making a game with a female protagonist that's good enough to sell well enough to make companies like EA/Naughty Dog/Rockstar, etc. notice? That seems virtually impossible to me on an indie budget.

Honestly, when was the last time you saw a large company look at an indie game and say "Wow, that's profitable! I like it! Let's create a game with those mechanics, and draw inspirtation from that indie game!" and actually follow through?

Lets not pretend that every indie game even makes it, is profitable, or goes over well. I'm not saying it has to, but that doesn't mean it never should be made with that motive.

What if the person does care about graphics, or AAA level game creation in general?

Oh, and think about this... if a person had the drive, funds, resources, vision, etc. to make their own game, THEY'D DO IT WITHOUT YOU BRINGING IT UP!!!

"Make your own game" is not the magical cure, here, people. It's an ignorant, ignorant, often times worthless suggestion.

Now, as I don't deal in absolutes, I'm not going to sit here and say every offering of "make your own game!" is bad, but it's starting to get that way as often as I see it. It's losing it's meaning, and it's integrity quickly as a suggestion, and seems more of a STFU conversation ender.
Honestly, even offered in well meaning, it's pretty bleedin' ignorant as the offering person generally knows jack about the person they're offering it to.

Yeah, I agree with you on this 100%. It just feels like such a damn cop out argument, like you're trying to criticize a game and the other guy wants to deflect the criticism without actually addressing them. Not to mention, exactly why the Hell would I WANT to make video games? I'd rather have a job that doesn't involve getting death threats on a daily basis.

 

[CloudAtlas]

(...)

Hysterically, this is quite possibly the most ignorant post I've ever seen on the subject, which is ironic considering how often you throw the word around.

For starters, comparing cars to video games is sort of ridiculous, considering that no one ever whines about a car being misogynistic, racist, homophobic, sexist, anti-trans, or take your pick of whatever else suddenly makes it "not progressive".

2nd, cars can vary in price from $1000 to about $300,000, so comparing them to games is pretty ridiculous, considering that the most expensive single game I've ever seen was about $90.

What difference does all that make? If I don't like a feature of my car, I can complain about it. If I don't like a feature of a game, I can complain about it. Same thing. Besides, people do complain about some ads for some cars being sexist...

3rd, you seem to mistake the distinction between criticism and demands. No one is saying that people can't say "I thought the graphics stunk", "I thought the main character was boring", "I thought the story was bland", etc.. What people are getting tired of is hearing people telling game companies and developers "you NEED to put more gay characters in games", "you NEED to make more female protagonists", "you NEED to do __________". It becomes truly ridiculous when people demand that something such as Call of Duty, which sold more in terms of pure $$$ value than any media in history, change itself because it's a "dudebro" game, or it needs more female characters, or take your pick.

Every criticism contains an implicit demand. Do you think people just complain for the sake of it?

Seriously, who is any individual to demand that a game company risk jobs and money to make a game that accommodates what they want? What risk are you taking to demand that games accommodate your beliefs? Absolutely none. You're asking people with jobs and investors that are on the line who are spending money that isn't yours to take a greater risk to accommodate your individual preferences. Utter garbage.

Entitlement at its finest. What you're saying here is that one group of people has the right to make demands, but not the other.

If you don't like what they put out, don't buy it. What this comes down to is a tiny minority who are angry that a much larger amount of people purchase games that they don't like for whatever reason, and they want that majority to change to accommodate them.

If we're talking about matters sexist/racist/homophobic: It may or may not be a minority, but it is certainly not tiny. Plus, it also happens to have the morally stronger argument.

 

[A Weakgeek]

Because a lot of us have jobs, aspirations and careers that don't involve us designing games. It's simply a hobby for a lot of us.

Not to mention, could you imagine if this was applied to other media? Hell, at least with novels, music and even film the entry level is lower.

Are you being sarcastic?

This generally is applied to other media. Fan-Fiction? Garage Bands? Youtube?

I think people are just focusing too much on the AAA.

I think the gaming equivalent of that would be modding. The comparison works especially well with Fanfiction and Garage bands, and even though many youtube videos are completely original works, I feel most follow a certain internet video formula.

 

[Lieju]

If you don't like what they put out, don't buy it. What this comes down to is a tiny minority who are angry that a much larger amount of people purchase games that they don't like for whatever reason, and they want that majority to change to accommodate them.

You can enjoy a game and yet have issues with it.
Also just by looking at the numbers, you can't tell WHY people like those games. Do people buy CoD BECAUSE the lack of female characters? Or because they enjoy the gameplay, or have friends who play it, or just know the brand?

Video-games have the advantage of being customisable experiences.
You don't have to force the majority to play as a female character or have a same-sex love-interest, you can simply provide the possibility to play a game that way.

It becomes truly ridiculous when people demand that something such as Call of Duty, which sold more in terms of pure $$$ value than any media in history, change itself because it's a "dudebro" game, or it needs more female characters, or take your pick.

Well, there's the fact that depressingly many games try to mimick CoD because they think that gets them the sales. They look at CoD and say 'This game is aimed at dudebros, and it sells well, therefore we must try to emulate it!'

Also CoD is so successfull it could take risks since it will sell anyway. They could make the story-campaign about a female soldier who is a lesbian single mother, and the game would sell just as well because most people who buy care about the multiplayer.

Personally I'd rather see games not trying to emulate CoD, though, and let it be what it is. I'm happy they included female soldiers in multiplayer, though, because not having them would have been bizarre.

 

[A Weakgeek]

Also just by looking at the numbers, you can't tell WHY people like those games.

Unfortunately, that works the other way around aswell.

Just by looking at what people are bitching about on forums, devs can't tell what would increase sales. Sales, that are required to make implementing the feature profitable.

 

[Lieju]

Also just by looking at the numbers, you can't tell WHY people like those games.

Unfortunately, that works the other way around aswell.

Just by looking at what people are bitching about on forums, devs can't tell what would increase sales. Sales, that are required to make implementing the feature profitable.

That's true, which is why just complaining about it is not a good strategy.
But that at least lets devs know that there's demand and interest.

 

[wulf3n]

Seriously, who is any individual to demand that a game company risk jobs and money to make a game that accommodates what they want? What risk are you taking to demand that games accommodate your beliefs? Absolutely none. You're asking people with jobs and investors that are on the line who are spending money that isn't yours to take a greater risk to accommodate your individual preferences. Utter garbage.

Entitlement at its finest. What you're saying here is that one group of people has the right to make demands, but not the other.

I just look at the Mass Effect 3 ending fiasco where fans who wanted a better ending were labelled entitled whiners, whereas those who say want more female protagonists aren't.

In the end it comes down to one group of people gets abused for making any "demand" and the other doesn't which you can imagine is incredibly frustrating.

Now the response ends up being abuse the other group because "do unto others as others have done unto you" and all that, which I don't agree with, but I understand where it's coming from.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Also CoD is so successfull it could take risks since it will sell anyway. They could make the story-campaign about a female soldier who is a lesbian single mother, and the game would sell just as well because most people who buy care about the multiplayer.

Personally I'd rather see games not trying to emulate CoD, though, and let it be what it is. I'm happy they included female soldiers in multiplayer, though, because not having them would have been bizarre.

And adding female soldiers in multiplayer isn't exactly what I'd call taking a big risk anyway.

Now the response ends up being abuse the other group because "do unto others as others have done unto you" and all that, which I don't agree with, but I understand where it's coming from.

Well, the actual quote (resp. its generally accepted translation), "Do unto others as you would have them do to you", is a bit different. But, sure, if someone enjoys being told to have no right to criticize a product he/she is consuming...

 

[wulf3n]

Well, the actual quote (resp. its generally accepted translation), "Do unto others as you would have them do to you", is a bit different. But, sure, if someone enjoys being told to have no right to criticize a product he/she is consuming...

In a perfect world yes, however it's been my experience that people will repeat what's been done to them on to others.

In this case "I can't complain about things that matter to me without being insulted, so why should anyone else" which is why this is an issue.

edit:

In essence "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is the fantasy, "Do unto others as others have done unto you" is the reality.

 

[CloudAtlas]

Well, the actual quote (resp. its generally accepted translation), "Do unto others as you would have them do to you", is a bit different. But, sure, if someone enjoys being told to have no right to criticize a product he/she is consuming...

In a perfect world yes, however it's been my experience that people will repeat what's been done to them on to others.

In this case "I can't complain about things that matter to me without being insulted, so why should anyone else" which is why this is an issue.

edit:

In essence "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is the fantasy, "Do unto others as others have done unto you" is the reality.

Now I understand you. I'm not sure if that's really the most important reason for why some people behave in particularly unpleasant ways on certain issues, but it's certainly plausible that it plays a role.

And if you don't like stuff from the bible, Kant's categorical imperative is even better: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction."

 

[Tallim]

Already on it. I know that the chances of any developer making the couple of games I really want is incredibly slim so I've started on them myself. I've learnt coding from scratch purely so I can start developing the games I want to and it has been a very long journey but it's finally coming together

 

[ThriKreen]

Speaking as a 16 year old honor student who has actually had game developer classes, I believe no.

No no no. Do not oversimplify it like that.

It takes lots of time, effort and work that not everyone can do to create a game.

Well... speaking as a 37-year-old game developer [http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,295189/] who has worked on several [http://masseffect.bioware.com/me1/] AAA [http://dragonage.bioware.com/dao/] games [http://www.saintsrow.com/] ...

"I know yes."

I never claimed it was EASY, but it is exactly that simple: the best way to make and get better at making games - is to make one. Then make another, improving on what you learned on the previous iteration. And then another, and another after that. Obviously start small, and increase in complexity and scope. The skills and experience isn't something you just gain a point in and suddenly you went from doodling with crayons to doing the Mona Lisa - you have to do, practice and learn and develop said skills gradually over time.

And the best way to level up? By making a game. Notice I said game, not video game. If you can't code or make 3D art, then work out the mechanics of it as a boardgame. Or do 2D art for it. There are a number of flowchart programming systems to help ease the flow of logic as well. Or find friends or people over the net to collaborate over.

But the largest hurdle is still to stop talking about making one - and get up off your butt and MAKE ONE.

Here's a condensed life history:
- wanted to make games
- graduated high school, focus on art and programming
- college on computer graphics
- got a job at a dot.com doing IT stuff
- dot.com bubble burst, laid off
- said f' this, hate IT and web dev, let's go back to my main passion
- another college course, learning Maya
- joined a NWN mod team
- Made stuff! Lots of stuff
- Got noticed!
- BIOWARE CALLED ME UP FOR A JOB BEFORE I COULD APPLY
- Rest is history.

While admittedly, currently I am out of the games industry, I plan on getting back in, while working on my stuff on my own time. It's about pacing, setting aside a schedule to do something every week, get something done so there's some progress.

... but I will not let that deter me.

Good for you! Just remember to never stop learning, there's always an area you can improve on. I thought 3D math and vectors and linear algebra was out of reach for me, now I'm almost getting my character to not skip when moving down a ramp, and sort of getting the concept behind dot and cross products. I suspect I'll start learning matrix math later too.

Yet I'd prefer to do environment modeling. But it's all stuff I'm building up on for my ultimate project, doing it in steps.

If you've got jobs and such, great, good for you. But you mean to tell me you can';t spend five minutes a day on a script or a drawing or whatever? It's going to take a long time to make, yeah, but it'll get done. If you want actual change, you're gonna have to put in time and effort.

The best part is that as you do more and get better from the experience, it gets easier. So you get more accomplished in that same time period. Then at some point, you end up arguing with your employer to LET you take work home to work on it, because it's actually *gasp* FUN AND INTERESTING (at least, if the work is related to game dev, which was the case for me).

Or you find yourself without anything to do on a weekend day - no wait, I have something I do want to do: make my game.

If you're not willing to learn, to work and to sacrifice you're not worth the internet's time with your "make games my way" shit. Yeah, a lot of work goes into making games. That much is obvious. So do that and THEN maybe your complaints would make sense and actually have weight to them.

Not just that, but you get a new found appreciation for game devs, as well as a lot more tolerance for what is offered for the game. It's not just a lot of work, but also a lot of hard decisions on what gets cut and what stays, trying to focus on what best represents the game and offers a fun package to the players.

Remember, the relationship is: "I made this game, I hope it is fun for you."

It's easy to just be a consumer, acting like you're a king and sending everything back to the kitchen if you don't like it. But a chef tasting another chef's work will understand what went into it.

There is an excuse. It's "That's not what I want to do for a living"

Who said anything about doing it for a living? I know a lot of people who design games on the side as a hobby, even when their day job is also making games. Or engage in something totally not what their day-job is like: film-making, photography, singing, costumes, writing, art, brewing beer...

Already on it. I know that the chances of any developer making the couple of games I really want is incredibly slim so I've started on them myself. I've learnt coding from scratch purely so I can start developing the games I want to and it has been a very long journey but it's finally coming together

Soooo .... when can I expect to see your game winning the IGF?

 

[ninjaRiv]

If you've got jobs and such, great, good for you. But you mean to tell me you can';t spend five minutes a day on a script or a drawing or whatever? It's going to take a long time to make, yeah, but it'll get done. If you want actual change, you're gonna have to put in time and effort.

The best part is that as you do more and get better from the experience, it gets easier. So you get more accomplished in that same time period. Then at some point, you end up arguing with your employer to LET you take work home to work on it, because it's actually *gasp* FUN AND INTERESTING (at least, if the work is related to game dev, which was the case for me).

Or you find yourself without anything to do on a weekend day - no wait, I have something I do want to do: make my game.

If you're not willing to learn, to work and to sacrifice you're not worth the internet's time with your "make games my way" shit. Yeah, a lot of work goes into making games. That much is obvious. So do that and THEN maybe your complaints would make sense and actually have weight to them.

Not just that, but you get a new found appreciation for game devs, as well as a lot more tolerance for what is offered for the game. It's not just a lot of work, but also a lot of hard decisions on what gets cut and what stays, trying to focus on what best represents the game and offers a fun package to the players.

Remember, the relationship is: "I made this game, I hope it is fun for you."

I actually tried making a very very simple point and click game a few months ago and I admit, I gave up. It really is a long, tedious process but it did give me a better understanding of the crap developers have to go through to get the final product. To the point where I can't even hate a terrible game 100% anymore. "Yeah, it's totally broken and should be set on fire but the people behind it worked super hard and should be respected for that."

I've actually been itching to get into it, to learn more.

Already on it. I know that the chances of any developer making the couple of games I really want is incredibly slim so I've started on them myself. I've learnt coding from scratch purely so I can start developing the games I want to and it has been a very long journey but it's finally coming together

Did you learn coding by taking a class or are there decent online resources to learn this?

 

[Something Amyss]

Not really, my point is that consumers can support the Indie market even if they're not developers themselves, which gives their voice strength in an economic climate. This sort of mentality, the "if I want it done I need to do it myself" mentality tends to be a sign of creative health. Heck, Tolkien talked quite a lot about how his favorite genre, fantasy, was a non entity at his time, which is what prompted him to write LotR. He couldn't read the kinds of stories he wanted to read, so he had to write them. Not literally everyone has to be a content creator, and I don't think the OP is saying we should all quit our day jobs to develop video games. What he's saying is that the gaming community as a whole needs to take charge, not just sit around and moan, which a lot of us are good at. And he's right.

Supporting the indie market isn't really any different than supporting the mainstream market. Any agency there is an illusion. There's still no real guarantee of any sort of representation of what you want unless you do it yourself. And that still bumps into the original problem.

As for Tolkien, I'd note he still represented the mainstream, writing has a lower barrier to entry, and individual success stories are overall meaningless.

If your point is that people can support the market, they can do that with any company. Doesn't seem like a point worth making unless you think the indie market is a special snowflake.

 

[Tallim]

Did you learn coding by taking a class or are there decent online resources to learn this?

There are much better resources now online than when I started learning but I did it via online resources and a couple of books. To be honest if I was to do it again I would probably have done a course to get the fundamentals done quicker. To start it can sometimes feel like you are fumbling about in the dark.

I was also lucky enough to have several friends who are A) Professional coders and B) Extremely patient with a lot of questions about basic stuff.

 

[Tallim]

Soooo .... when can I expect to see your game winning the IGF?

Heh probably never! I'm just making the game that I want to play and I don't have the resources to work on it all the time so it is strictly a "spare time" endeavour. I don't have any allusions to making money from it or anything either. It's merely a personal project that I'll release once complete regardless of quality.

 

[ThriKreen]

Heh probably never! I'm just making the game that I want to play and I don't have the resources to work on it all the time so it is strictly a "spare time" endeavour. I don't have any allusions to making money from it or anything either. It's merely a personal project that I'll release once complete regardless of quality.

You'll never know!

I never thought the NWN mod work I did would have ended up being added as official content.

Just do your best, and since there's no one else overseeing it, don't be afraid to go outside the box as it were.

 

[Skops]

Yes, yes, I have had this thought process too. Took a course in Game Design, 2 years, internship at Ubisoft and even took part in many ''Game Jam's''. Designed, coded, demo'd, and presented and pitched a number of my own games, and where'd that get me? A Q.A job for EA Montreal for a game that never got released, and work 14hrs a day, 6 days a week, for the wages of basically your average call centre job. It didn't take me long to find that after experiencing the industry, I don't want to be in the industry anymore than spending a few bucks to get some cheap thrills on a TV screen.

I'm not going to sit here and say "I know better than you" cause everyone that tries their hand at the industry will have a different experience. But my story is a common one.