If You Don't Believe in Evolution, Why?

AhumbleKnight

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piscian said:
There's too much at stake politically for creationists to accept evolution as anything but flights of fancy. It's as simple as that. Evolution isn't rocking the foundations of anyone's faith. It's the idea that if you're wrong about the ancestry of man what else might you be wrong about? This is purely an American issue that hasn't quite made it's way out of the puritanism which brought it to popularity originally. I hate directing the conversation this way but I've yet to see evidence to show me otherwise. I've never personally met anyone who is adamantly against the theory of evolution and yet is pro gay marriage, pro choice, etc.

It goes hand in hand. I've yet to see otherwise. A rock is a rock unless your version of reality depends on it being a tea leaf.

I'm not against Faith. In a way the progression of science could not exist without it. It's rigid fundamentalism that is holding us back.
I wish you were right about it being only an American issue, i really do. Unfortunatly three out of the nine people I work with every day don't "beleive" in evolution. These are not stupid people. You need to be a smart person to do the job I do. Australia is not in as bad a state as America on this issue, but it is quite depressing that it is an issue here as well.
 

Ohten

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Snack Cake said:
There is almost no area where the Abrahamic tradition makes a falsifiable claim about the nature of the universe, which isn't directly contradicted by modern science. Germ theory, astrophysics, and geology all differ sharply with holy books of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Evolution is no more scientifically controversial than any of these other topics. However, none of these areas of science are under constant attack by the religious community, the way that evolutionary biology is.

Why?
At this point? Just to spite you for an easy laugh.
 

Woodsey

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Because for those who are religious it is, essentially, a God-killer.

Besides, I was under the impression it had been fully proven - don't even get me started on the argument that God just put dinosaur skeletons and other fossils there as a test of faith or whatever other claims people make.
 

TheEvilCheese

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Many people I know, Intelligent and (usually) level-headed don't beleive in evolution because they don't like being thought of as, and I quote "Just Animals".

But This is senseless to me, as evolution makes sense and has plenty of evidence.
 

ProfessorLayton

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As in what type of evolution? I don't believe that we came out of a single celled organism from the sea because if you take a look at the complexities of even a single celled organism and how everything in it works together like clockwork, the idea that it was all an accident seems silly. It's like if a television just appeared out of nowhere on accident. I also believe that if something evolves, then what it evolves from should be completely gone. But I believe that people have gotten smarter over the course of time, but not due to a natural thing but due to learning from our past. It's sort of like a snowball effect. Think if every human started out completely new and didn't have anything to learn from the past or couldn't learn from the past or something. There would be no natural force to make him smarter and better because it hasn't been proven.

Also I don't want to get into a debate, so don't bother quoting me. And I'll say what I've always said: I'm not going to change my religious beliefs because some kid on a forum told me to.
 

cuddly_tomato

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AhumbleKnight said:
sgtshock said:
I do believe in evolution, although I do see how even some rational-minded people might question it. For example: how did eyes evolve? Eyes are an incredibly complex organ, I fail to see how an eyeless creature could either:

1) Be suddenly be born with eyes complex enough to give it an advantage at survival,
or
2) Evolve two useless organs on its face that, over many generations, would eventually gain the ability to pick up light.

Now like I said, I still believe in evolution, and I'm totally open to the fact that science might one day explain this. And those people who reject evolution purely on the fact that it contradicts with the "6 days" story, are idiots. Especially considering that Darwin himself believed in God.
The answer to your question is out there. It is not even hard to find. Most people who have a problem with evolution or questions about it tend to do nothing about it other than doubt.
If you really think that science should not be questioned, then you have completely missed the point of science. Science is a tool, a method, a process by which humans explain worldly phenomena and make useful predictions based upon those observations. Science is not a culture, a belief system or some kind of creed.

I myself have had evolution debates on these very forums concerning some discrepancies and unexplained and inadequate evolutionary phenomena. I never said that evolution didn't happen, just that the conventional theory for natural selection doesn't work for some species, and so that theory needs work. Maze and I had a really good discussion on it that enhanced my own theories on the subject and made me learn something. Sometimes however, when I say "Hang on a minute chaps, what about this?", some people scream "HERESY! HE BELIEVES IN GOD!"

Irony incarnate. In fact double irony because I don't believe in god.

AhumbleKnight said:
I believe in logic, reason, and the scientific process. I believe that the laws of the universe are fixed and through observation, testing, and rational thought, we are able to eventualy understand them (one at a time). It bothers me that so many people don't "believe" in evolution when they don't even understand the basics of what it is. They use and trust all the advances in technology that the scientific process has given us yet chose to not to believe in evolution. They believe in gravity and would laugh at anybody who chose to not believe in gravity. They don't even realise that there is more evidence supporting the theory of evolution than the theory of gravity.
Firstly, logic isn't something to believe in, the same way that people don't believe in their fridge. It is something we use. If you believe that the laws of the universe are fixed then you are actually at odds with science (quantum mechanics?).

Secondly, I completely understand and agree with you if you say that the beliefs of other people bother you when they get in your face with those beliefs and try to shove those beliefs down your throat. However, if someone else quietly believing something different to you then that tells of an insecurity in ones own beliefs.
Woodsey said:
Because for those who are religious it is, essentially, a God-killer.
No it isn't. Look at talkorigins.com.
 

Lexodus

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dragon_of_red said:
You need it, faith and hope are the only things making us seperate from the bad guys.
Dragon_of_red, highlighting one of the main points as to why religious people are hated by many. Give the man a biscuit.

OT: The big thing about evolution vs creation is that, whilst not disproving God, evolution being correct would take away his massive claim to fame (and, if God didn't create the world, who's to say he did all that other stuff? And if he didn't do that, who's to say that there even is a God?). That is why, I think, there is the schism.

EDIT: By the above, what I mean is, the whole story links together God creating the world, and God creating the plants, animals and humans. If you believe the story, it says God did all that, and all in 6 days, yadda yadda yadda. Point is, 'creation' is lumped into one story. However, If God didn't create the plants, animals, and humans, maybe he may not have created the world either (see: big bang theory. If evolution can be accepted, why not the big bang as the next logical step?), which means he may not either a) have the power, and then not be the god that Christians, Jews and Muslims etc. believe in, or b) exist in any way, shape or form.
 

Lexodus

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popdafoo said:
As in what type of evolution? I don't believe that we came out of a single celled organism from the sea because if you take a look at the complexities of even a single celled organism and how everything in it works together like clockwork, the idea that it was all an accident seems silly. It's like if a television just appeared out of nowhere on accident. I also believe that if something evolves, then what it evolves from should be completely gone. But I believe that people have gotten smarter over the course of time, but not due to a natural thing but due to learning from our past. It's sort of like a snowball effect. Think if every human started out completely new and didn't have anything to learn from the past or couldn't learn from the past or something. There would be no natural force to make him smarter and better because it hasn't been proven.

Also I don't want to get into a debate, so don't bother quoting me. And I'll say what I've always said: I'm not going to change my religious beliefs because some kid on a forum told me to.
You don't have to debate this, but your analogy is wrong. Evolution is not like a TV just appearing out of nowhere on accident; it's like it gradually coming together, starting as a random mess of wires etc., gradually becoming the first prototype tvt, a shitty little 5 inch screen, etc., then gradually getting bigger and more advanced, until it hits 72" HDTV and settles, as there is no need for it to develop further. Of course, this analogy only works if you take it exactly as I just said, because usually this doesn't work, TVs not being alive and having to be built and all.
 

cuddly_tomato

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Lexodus said:
dragon_of_red said:
You need it, faith and hope are the only things making us seperate from the bad guys.
Dragon_of_red, highlighting one of the main points as to why religious people are hated by many. Give the man a biscuit.
You don't need faith. You do need belief. Not belief in god, but belief in concepts of good and evil. Science has nothing to say about morality, ethics, justice, or anything else like that. So yes, if someone relies only on science and logic they are amoral. Not evil or bad, but simply completely without morality. Note: That is DIFFERENT from being an atheist. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god, not someone who doesn't believe in morality.

Lexodus said:
OT: The big thing about evolution vs creation is that, whilst not disproving God, evolution being correct would take away his massive claim to fame (and, if God didn't create the world, who's to say he did all that other stuff? And if he didn't do that, who's to say that there even is a God?). That is why, I think, there is the schism.
Why do you think that evolution contradicts religion? Surely you have the word "allegory" in your vocabulary? That is all one needs to understand that religion and evolution really don't have anything all to do with each other.

Also, what do you mean "create the world"?
 

ProfessorLayton

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Lexodus said:
You don't have to debate this, but your analogy is wrong. Evolution is not like a TV just appearing out of nowhere on accident; it's like it gradually coming together, starting as a random mess of wires etc., gradually becoming the first prototype tvt, a shitty little 5 inch screen, etc., then gradually getting bigger and more advanced, until it hits 72" HDTV and settles, as there is no need for it to develop further. Of course, this analogy only works if you take it exactly as I just said, because usually this doesn't work, TVs not being alive and having to be built and all.
I used it as an analogy because it's complex and only a skilled craftsman could know how to make one. It doesn't just gradually come together with no help at all. It has to be thought out and built. Now take how complex it is to build a TV, and then multiply it by a thousand. That's about a fraction of how complex a cell is. I just have a hard time believing that intelligent design wasn't a factor is all.
 

Woodsey

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popdafoo said:
As in what type of evolution? I don't believe that we came out of a single celled organism from the sea because if you take a look at the complexities of even a single celled organism and how everything in it works together like clockwork, the idea that it was all an accident seems silly.
Accident? Evolution is adapting purposefully, we don't just change and hope for the best - inevitably you'll get one sector of a species that adapts because it needs to (which will then branch into it's own seperate species) whilst another part of the species doesn't and remains the same(ish).

Oh and I quoted because its a debate, I don't care about changing your beliefs.
 

Gardenia

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Im not sure if this is a fire extinguisher or a molotov but here goes:
The evolution vs religion is mainly an American thing. The rest of the western world accepts it as fact and made it fit together with a reasonable religious belief.
Hell (Fnar, Fnar), even my primary school teacher (who is the most conservatively religious non-american I have ever met) had no problem teaching us about evolution, and accepted it as a fact.
Over here, anyone who outright rejects evolution is likely to be considered a nutcase.
 

Chipperz

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Lexodus said:
dragon_of_red said:
You need it, faith and hope are the only things making us seperate from the bad guys.
Dragon_of_red, highlighting one of the main points as to why religious people are hated by many. Give the man a biscuit.

OT: The big thing about evolution vs creation is that, whilst not disproving God, evolution being correct would take away his massive claim to fame (and, if God didn't create the world, who's to say he did all that other stuff? And if he didn't do that, who's to say that there even is a God?). That is why, I think, there is the schism.
Evolution didn't create the world. At it's most basic level, gravity did.

I wish that these scientific types would actually read the theories they're supposed to believe in before spouting random lies as fact... (HA! I got to use it! Yay!)
 

Troublesome Lagomorph

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sneakypenguin said:
I personally think my faith(christianity) and science intersect pretty well, but arguing that here is like trying to argue with a twilight fan girl that edward is creepy. So why bother eh.
This. While I am a creationist, I do not believe in literal creation. I think it took the thousands of years scientists say (maybe a little less) to create the earth, etc.
 

Lexodus

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cuddly_tomato said:
Lexodus said:
dragon_of_red said:
You need it, faith and hope are the only things making us seperate from the bad guys.
Dragon_of_red, highlighting one of the main points as to why religious people are hated by many. Give the man a biscuit.
You don't need faith. You do need belief. Not belief in god, but belief in concepts of good and evil. Science has nothing to say about morality, ethics, justice, or anything else like that. So yes, if someone relies only on science and logic they are amoral. Not evil or bad, but simply completely without morality. Note: That is DIFFERENT from being an atheist. An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in god, not someone who doesn't believe in morality.

Lexodus said:
OT: The big thing about evolution vs creation is that, whilst not disproving God, evolution being correct would take away his massive claim to fame (and, if God didn't create the world, who's to say he did all that other stuff? And if he didn't do that, who's to say that there even is a God?). That is why, I think, there is the schism.
Why do you think that evolution contradicts religion? Surely you have the word "allegory" in your vocabulary? That is all one needs to understand that religion and evolution really don't have anything all to do with each other.

Also, what do you mean "create the world"?
What I mean is, the whole story links together God creating the world, and God creating the plants, animals and humans. If you believe the story, it says God did all that, and all in 6 days, yadda yadda yadda. Point is, 'creation' is lumped into one story. However, If God didn't create the plants, animals, and humans, maybe he may not have created the world either (see: big bang theory. If evolution can be accepted, why not the big bang as the next logical step?), which means he may not either a) have the power, and then not be the god that Christians, Jews and Muslims etc. believe in, or b) exist in any way, shape or form.
 

Lexodus

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Chipperz said:
Lexodus said:
dragon_of_red said:
You need it, faith and hope are the only things making us seperate from the bad guys.
Dragon_of_red, highlighting one of the main points as to why religious people are hated by many. Give the man a biscuit.

OT: The big thing about evolution vs creation is that, whilst not disproving God, evolution being correct would take away his massive claim to fame (and, if God didn't create the world, who's to say he did all that other stuff? And if he didn't do that, who's to say that there even is a God?). That is why, I think, there is the schism.
Evolution didn't create the world. At it's most basic level, gravity did.

I wish that these scientific types would actually read the theories they're supposed to believe in before spouting random lies as fact... (HA! I got to use it! Yay!)
I actually just qualified that. What I meant is, if everything on the earth evolved and that is accepted as fact, surely the big bang theory (also denying that God created the earth as it says in Genesis) might not be so hard to accept either.
 

DisturbiaWolf13

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hmm.I dont believe in god, but i've decided not to try to persuade people who do to change their beliefs, i mean i hate it when some religious arsehole comes up to me and starts preaching to me when im really not interested.I know its probably done to ''save me from my sins'' but the fact is i wholeheartedly dont believe in it.Our reasons for arguing with theists are much the same, we want to save them from wasting their lives, however i understand how infuriating preachers are, so i refuse to put anyone else through that annoyance.