"Illusions" That You Would Like Dispelled For the Good of Gaming

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Sep 1, 2010
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Gundam GP01 said:
Really? You sure you wanna do this again? Alright then.

Dark Souls in definitely skill based. If it wasn't, all of those Soul Level 1 playthroughs would not be possible.
I said/meant/implied playing through Dark Souls NORMALLY is easier than most AAA games and the difficulty when doing that isn't skill-based. The fact that you can block just about anything makes combat so easy, the enemies don't force different strategies on you (even Heavenly Sword forced you to use different strategies). You can do specific type of playthroughs in just about any game and make it difficult and skill-based, that's nothing inherently unique to Dark Souls either. Bloodborne already looks way better than a Souls game as it looks more fast-paced and offensive in nature, it seems to me you're going to have to dodge instead of blocking. And the enemies seem to actually have AI this time (doing such basic things as using a bow and arrow or merely strafing just baffled the AI in Dark Souls). I've only seen 1 video of Bloodborne so feel free to correct anything.
 

JayRPG

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Yes, Skyrim, the big open, empty world.

More just a jab at Skyrim here, I hated it, if you are going to have a massive open world.. put something in it, and don't make every single dungeon exactly the same. It's a big boring world filled with horrible combat and next to no story telling.

Plus, if you are going to sell your game on being able to do whatever you want, at least make some exceptions.

In Skyrim, straight after I escaped the prison camp at the start with that guy, I killed that guy straight away, but of course you need him for the story so he just comes back alive and is pissed off, if you are even vaguely near the town the whole town comes after you.

Seriously, would people have complained if we couldn't kill this necessary character right at the start? just make him invulnerable ffs; and that goes for any other similar character.
 

sageoftruth

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Vault101 said:
[sub/] ohhh boy! an opinion venting thread[/sub]

the Femenazi's and SJW's are not out to take away your games...

(hey if I didn't go there somone else would)
Thanks, your mentioning them just helped me recall of something.

"I can discredit an entire group by pointing out something dumb said by one person from that group."

When all the shots were being fired between SJW and their detractors months ago, I saw this flawed argument getting used over and over, with people going, "Well, I saw someone in YOUR group say that all men deserve to die" and then someone else going, "Well, I saw someone in YOUR group say that all women deserve to die".

All massive internet-related groups have their black sheep who misreads the group's message and says something really dumb on the group's behalf. Imagine how much better everything would be if more people could stop painting those guys as the groups' spokespeople.
 

Dizchu

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Sep 23, 2014
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EternallyBored said:
At best, it is empty grandstanding, and at worst it is basically poorly done propaganda.
I'm curious to know what the "agenda" is if this is indeed propaganda. I'm not denying that it's questionably arranged but "propaganda"? Propaganda for what? Their "opposition" is claiming that they're trying to keep gaming a "boys' club" and that the games they enjoy contribute to the pervasive sexism in society (to a degree significant enough that it results in hysteria).

Also I think the lack of female characters and the homogeneity of male characters is more the publishers' faults rather than developers or the gaming audience. Because of this I think a lot of the criticism is very misguided. I'm sure loads of devs would LOVE to put women, non-whites and LGBT characters in their games but when budgets increase, the room for risk-taking decreases.

They should cut gamers some slack.
 

sageoftruth

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inu-kun said:
Angelblaze said:
just that games that allow you to pick other options are more likely to be sung more praises.
Do you have any statistics to back this claim?
Angelblaze said:
In addition, having a single person that happens to be a white male fighting against bad people is a bit of a played out idea just on its own - and the video game industry (Bioware and Telltale games aside) hates writers. Like, for no reason.


Also, why don't we start calling White Male Protagonists 'Wimps'?

White Male Protagonists

It would've been so perfect, just the right match for Yahztee's spunk gargle wee-wee.
You know, fighting sexism with sexism (and racism) isn't gonna solve any problem. Not to mention it's a bad acronym.

I'll add, all japanese games are the same
Besides plain ignorance it's just annoying, best example is Yahtzee's review of Valkyria Chronicles, people seem to think that if there's some anime tropes used then the game is cookie cutter japanese media.
Ah, yes. Very much so. I mean, I basically feel this way anytime anyone says, "All of X is the same" but one place where that happens a lot is in the East vs. West Video Game Wars. You go listen to those argument and apparently every Western game is Gears of War and every Eastern game is a post FF7 Square Enix JRPG.
 

Vigormortis

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Silentpony said:
Much of what you said about the Half-Life games is how I felt towards the Bioshock games, and vice versa.

Funny how opinions work, huh?

BloatedGuppy said:
Sure, I'll play.

I'd like the illusion dispelled that gaming is a hermetic medium that can only be properly appraised, criticized and appreciated by True Gamers, who can only be appointed and validated by Other True Gamers. I'd like the illusion dispelled that there is a right and wrong way to design a game, and that certain styles of game are fundamentally "better" or "more a GAME" than others. I'd like the illusion dispelled that "casual" and "hardcore" gamers are fundamentally at loggerheads, and that supporting or enjoying one makes you an inherent enemy of the other.

Lots of stuff, really. I'm not holding my breath though.
Agreed on all fronts, save one.

"There's no right or wrong way to design a game."

While I'll agree there's no inherent 'wrong way' to design a game, in terms of style, genre, etc, there are fundamental design philosophies one must use or avoid if the intention is to create a quality product. Or, in the very least, a functional product.
 

Callate

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Independent of all other considerations (including that you or others would actually buy said game), that you are somehow "owed" the game features that you want.
 

EternallyBored

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DizzyChuggernaut said:
EternallyBored said:
At best, it is empty grandstanding, and at worst it is basically poorly done propaganda.
I'm curious to know what the "agenda" is if this is indeed propaganda. I'm not denying that it's questionably arranged but "propaganda"? Propaganda for what? Their "opposition" is claiming that they're trying to keep gaming a "boys' club" and that the games they enjoy contribute to the pervasive sexism in society (to a degree significant enough that it results in hysteria).
It's fairly common for propaganda pieces to create caricatures of a position in order to attack a more easily defeated argument or enemy. In this case it bears resemblance to a number of political propaganda tactics I have seen politicians utilize in U.S. elections, right down to the formatting.

Start with a scary or important sounding question, it doesn't matter if your opponent's stance is only sort of similar, or that the question is taken to an illogical extreme or simplified so much as to be useless, it needs to be pithy and punchy, something that will immediately grab attention. In this case, starting out with, "are games really sexist?", sure, nobody is actually arguing games in their entirety are sexist, but wording the question this way gives it more emotional oomph, it makes those that like videogames feel like the question is antagonistic and targeting everyone rather than anything specific. It creates an image of an opponent that is generalizing your whole hobby

Then, at the bottom, an authoritative statement, doesn't matter that the image itself doesn't actually answer the question, the answer is irrelevant, you are answering it for them. Start with an authoritative "No." with its own period and everything, it gives you a commanding voice, people are psychologically more likely to believe things they read if they are stated with authority and assurance. Then you answer the question for them, another commanding statement telling them the answer to the question asked up top. And finally, a little self-advertisement to top it all off, to let the reader know where they need to go if they want to hear more, all good politicians know that their name, or website, or link to how to donate to their PAC is essential. In this case, a pithy little hashtag telling you exactly who brought this little picture to you, and summing up just what they are supposedly fighting against.

Now, was the image created as actual propaganda? Eh, hard to tell, maybe, maybe not. It's just as likely the image was a genuine attempt at someone trying to present information rather than specifically advertising for a group or cause. It could have just been someone caught up in the flamewars and in an emotional state didn't bother to think the image through very well, or it could have been someone in a hurry who just wanted something punchy and easy to grasp that they could throw out against a particular opponent or sentiment. propaganda is kind of a loaded term, so I am loathe to throw it out for a movement as spastic and unorganized as this one.

Also I think the lack of female characters and the homogeneity of male characters is more the publishers' faults rather than developers or the gaming audience. Because of this I think a lot of the criticism is very misguided. I'm sure loads of devs would LOVE to put women, non-whites and LGBT characters in their games but when budgets increase, the room for risk-taking decreases.
I rarely see anyone blame developers more than publishers, if anything the publishers are pretty much the go-to scapegoat for any sort of criticism in mainstream gaming: DLC, microtransactions, review score inflation, youtube takedowns, content cutting, tacked-on multiplayer. It's easy to blame the publishers, they are just shady businessmen who don't play video games, they aren't the developers who are often gamers themselves and make the games we love, and they aren't our fellow gamers.

Though, given that in the AAA industry publishers are the ones holding the pursestrings, they likely do hold the lion's share of the blame for these types of decisions, this does not, however, mean that developers and audiences are completely blameless either.

Developers that see male protagonists as favorable or the default can exist without any publisher influence or developers who self-censor themselves to pander to a desired demographic, and publishers hold the beliefs they do in part because the audience (gamers) support these decisions with their money and feedback. That does not mean that developers, publishers, or gamers are evil and must be attacked for this, but neither can we point our fingers at just a bunch of shadowy publisher investors as a convenient scapegoat to avoid turning the mirror on ourselves or the developers who create the games we love. The current situation is not some grave human rights violation, it should be able to be discussed rationally by adults without thinking one side is either raging misogynists or rampant man-haters.

They should cut gamers some slack.
Gamers should cut other gamers slack? It's gamers attacking other gamers for the most part, it's like kids on the playground who grab another kids arm and use it to hit him while saying "why are you hitting yourself?" except there is no second kid, it's just the one kid hitting himself genuinely wondering why he is beating himself up.
 

Dizchu

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Sep 23, 2014
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EternallyBored said:
It's fairly common for propaganda pieces to create caricatures of a position in order to attack a more easily defeated argument or enemy. In this case it bears resemblance to a number of political propaganda tactics I have seen politicians utilize in U.S. elections, right down to the formatting.
But this could also be applied to the oppositional stance? Cherry-picking or distorting data to come to a conclusion that was already arrived at. Only with the chart above, it was about addressing an accusation, not making an accusation itself.

I still want to know what the agenda is. Even if the data is inaccurate (it is), the message its trying to convey (sexism in video games isn't as bad as some make it out to be) seems to be relatively harmless. Compare this with the "gamers are stubborn conservative misogynists" angle that some news sources are going with, which mirrors the backlash towards violence in video games in the previous decade.

I rarely see anyone blame developers more than publishers, if anything the publishers are pretty much the go-to scapegoat for any sort of criticism in mainstream gaming..
It depends. Many gamers would indeed pin much of the blame on the publishers rather than the developers, but some people who I will not name because god dammit I don't want another thread about them don't make the distinction.

Bayonetta perpetuates the "male gaze"... apparently? Yes, the power fantasy and creation of a woman is just filthy "male gaze" pandering. Sure, you could make an argument that her views on what makes a woman "powerful" could be skewed by patriarchal double-standards. That'd be an interesting discussion. But that's not what the discussion is. The "discussion" is not even a discussion, it is just an accusation. "Bayonetta is sexist". Specifically towards women.

Though, given that in the AAA industry publishers are the ones holding the pursestrings, they likely do hold the lion's share of the blame for these types of decisions, this does not, however, mean that developers and audiences are completely blameless either.
Absolutely, though in the public eye they have had to face the brunt of the accusations and negative publicity. A disproportionate amount of it, in fact.

Developers that see male protagonists as favorable or the default can exist without any publisher influence or developers who self-censor themselves to pander to a desired demographic, and publishers hold the beliefs they do in part because the audience (gamers) support these decisions with their money and feedback.
My characters are female by default (and I also regard women as favourable). Is that wrong? Am I being sexist? I can see why it can be frustrating if most people believe the opposite but that's just how people are. If most of the protagonists in, say, erotic fiction were female (don't quote me on that), would that mean that we'd need more male representation? I'd rather people just write what they're comfortable writing.

Gamers should cut other gamers slack? It's gamers attacking other gamers for the most part, it's like kids on the playground who grab another kids arm and use it to hit him while saying "why are you hitting yourself?" except there is no second kid, it's just the one kid hitting himself genuinely wondering why he is beating himself up.
I'm talking primarily about how the media (still) portrays gamers. And trust me, they still treat them like a mass of obsessive, infantile, socially inept, entitled virgins. This isn't about people merely having discussions about gender representation in video games, this is about people being ridiculed and vilified for things that aren't even true.

I know it sounds like I'm being very oppositional to you but I think you raise a lot of good points and I'm enjoying this discussion. I don't necessarily disagree with you, either.
 

white_wolf

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SunlightHeart said:
white_wolf said:
key spring board for game stories cuz men are heros women are their cheerleaders, eyecandy, conquest, cargo, care givers, revenge motivators as the dead or to be saved, quest givers, and side kicks.
If only this were true anymore. I literally just looked at the 360's entire library of games, and I can honestly say that most of them aren't like that. Dead tropes are dead.
How many puzzle games were there? Funny how my collection has many games that still employ the tactics including the xb1. I just got done playing a game where the girl I predicted existed for being A; a love interest or B a damsel, she got the B treatment just when I thought the game might actually not do it then I had to save her the only saving she did came after she spent 5 minutes explaining to me how she needed to die then she stab and punched a few people then eat a guy's face off and I had to kill her so many tropes in one scene. The only plus I salvaged from that is if she was a man they'd kill them pretty much same just they'd do the stabbing punching bit except he'd die via gunshot to the head and there'd be no long ass monologue of why he should die instead of hero man other wise he would've died the same way, but hey thats just one of two I just beat but wait that other one had save the chick in it too.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Sep 1, 2010
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Gundam GP01 said:
You and I must have different understandings of the term "skill-based," because to me, that implies that the game either only has one difficulty and progression is generally defined with new enemies with new attacks and AI patterns, with very little to no palette swap enemies that only have bigger stats as their only difference. Something that basically says "This is the only difficulty you get, and you'll have to get good if you want to do good."

Or something where each difficulty is a significant step up from the last, and you have to damn near master the game to do good at those higher levels of difficulty. But that's more Devil May Cry and Bayonetta, and is not relevant to a conservation about Dark Souls.

But like I said, I dont think we share that definition, so why dont you tell me what you think skill based difficulty is.
Skilled-based means it takes skill. Running a sniper (properly) in a shooter is more skillful vs using an automatic gun with frags and a tube. Having an automatic gun is a nice safety blanket whereas if you miss running sniper, you're dead. Just blocking an enemy and attacking after isn't very skillful. Dodging is inherently more skillful as you need better timing than just blocking. Blocking is very much like having that safety blanket of an of automatic fire with an automatic gun in a shooter (vs a single shot or burst fire gun) as you have a much bigger margin for error blocking vs dodging.

I didn't play DMC (the subject matter never interested me) but Bayonetta really wasn't about significantly stepping up the difficulty, it taught you the game as you went up difficulties. Bayonetta weened you off witch-time by giving you more and more enemies immune to witch-time as you went up the difficulties so when you did play on the final difficulty with no witch-time, you already could play without it. You didn't have to master the game to beat the hardest difficulty, that's what the scoring and medals were for; you'd master the game for the highest scores, not to beat a difficulty level. Dark Souls should've weened me off being able to effectively block everything and made me get better at the game, not necessarily master it. It really made no sense that my dex-based character with no armor could block say a crystal golem as it is stronger than my character. I was never forced to use even heavy attacks (which I only used to kill faster not because I had to) yet alone the special weapon moves.

No.
Dark Souls is an action RPG, not a hack and slash character action game. Stop trying to compare the two genres, they have very little in common. And Dark Souls DOES force you to use different strategies, by the way. Remember Moonlight Butterfly? Ornstein and Smough?
Regardless of what kind of game it is; action RPG (which can be a hack and slash BTW), hack and slash, shooter, turn-based combat, etc., different enemies should require different strategies to defeat. That's a basic tenant of any game focusing on combat. Dark Souls fails at that. The only enemies that you list are bosses, common enemies should require different strategies too. Moonlight butterfly was joke easy.

And SL1 playthroughs aren't needed to make the game skill based either. Furthermore, I'd argue that the entire point of RPGs in general is to create and build the character you want to make.
You definitely have to gimp yourself to make Dark Souls challenging, I don't know if it means doing an SL1 playthrough or not. Like I said such simple things like strafing and bow & arrows are broken.

The main point of an RPG is to role-play, nothing else. You don't need to create and build a character in an RPG. If you are given an already created max-level DnD character to play as, are you not playing an RPG?

You were perfectly able to dodge in Dark Souls. If you hate blocking so much in that game, then why didn't you play a heavy hitting character that used evasion to avoid damage?

And while the AI may not be the best in Dark Souls, it still makes sense in the context of the setting most of the time, so it's really not a problem.
I never said you can't dodge in Dark Souls. I made a dex-based character because I don't care for playing the standard sword and shield character. It didn't stop be from being able to block almost all attacks with something like the spider shield. I played the whole game with low enough weight to be able to roll the fastest. The ability to block is a really awesome safety blanket. When I first started Dark Souls and got that shitty shield, I was thinking it was going to be a hard game as I thought the shields my character (going for low weight) would be able to use wouldn't block 100% of physical damage so I'd have to constantly decide between blocking (losing some guaranteed health) or dodging (losing no health or a lot of health) but I very rarely had to make those kind of tough decisions. Same thing with stamina (I thought I'd constantly have to decide my moves based on my stamina level) but unless you really suck, you should never run out of stamina as you can lower your shield in-between enemy hits and regain all the stamina you just lost for blocking that last hit. I had to watch my stamina more in Dragon's Dogma than Dark Souls.
 

Ishal

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Seth Carter said:
That storytelling and characters are a pivotal requirement of a great game.

Storyline is the garnish on your burger. Sure it adds to it, but if the burger is a mushy undercooked pile of sawdust, msg, and food coloring, its not going to be saved by some ketchup on top. I see so many reviews of games where they're docking 2-3 (or even more) points out of 10 for things that aren't even *game*play, while games that could be played on a DVD player net 9s and 10s. Having both together is nice, but the game side of games seems to be ever-more pushed into the background while a bunch of people try and lump them in with movies/books.

EDIT : WTF is with those new captchas. It took 8 tries before one finally worked.
I'm going to echo this.

Games have a plateau when it comes to what they can do via storytelling. I feel we're quickly reaching it without sacrificing gameplay, to where mechanics and fun are going to be sacrificed to tell mediocre stories at best
 

TheMysteriousGX

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A "Mature" game needs grey earth-tones, violence, profanity, and tits.

Hate this one so much, and I don't like devs who think following comics into the 90's is a good idea. I'd kill for more mature stories for games, but only from devs who have more than one definition of Mature.

Female characters are hard.

They really aren't. You could gender-swap 95% of protagonists without making any substantial difference in aesthetics or story. Maria and Louise rescue Prince Toadstool from Queen Bowser. Heck, most generic descriptions of games are gender-neutral themselves. Subject accesses memories of past lives as an assassin, mute scientist fights off alien invaders, three criminals go on a crime-spree, squad of soldiers fight off alien... invasion...

Okay, fair enough. Writing is a challenge for games.
 

Fieldy409_v1legacy

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That survival and horror games are better if they have clunky controls. They say that the controls represent your guy not being a superhuman soldier like in Halo.

No! Don't gimp me and then expect me to thank you for it.
 

Sticky

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Mutant1988 said:
An illusion I want to annihilate: That everything needs to be both bigger and better.
Ooh, can I add onto this?

The illusion that Bigger = Better. That somehow making a game larger in scale, budget wise or production wise, will always produce a better game.

This is something the industry needs to learn, and fast.
 

Mutant1988

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Another thing: I want to dispel the notion that pre-orders are necessary.

They are not. They accomplish nothing except putting the money in the developers and publishers pockets before you know their product is any good or not.

This applies especially for digital content, where limited inventory is a non-factor.
 

NPC009

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I got a new one (bit lit,l but I'm an European who sleeps at night):

Gamers can't discuss issues in gaming without picking sides
Seriously guys, why drag GG, SJWs and similar crap into this? It'd be much easier to have a good discussion without going 'GG says...' or 'SJWs think...'. Opinions don't have to line up with one extreme side or another. Stop treating gaming like a high school cafeteria. If you have to assign yourself and/or others to tables (and all the stereotypes that come with it) just to make yourself feel better, you are too childish to participate in discussions.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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Gundam GP01 said:
When you say that a skill based game means that a game takes skill, what do you mean? What is skill?

I'm ignoring the rest because I feel it's a it's a needless tangent to the point I wanted to get at.

However, I will say one thing: If you dont like playing with a shield, then stop playing with a fucking shield.
It's not hard to understand ABC is harder than XYZ. Needing to dodge to avoid damage is harder than being able to block in a combat game as one requires faster reflexes (blocking really doesn't require any reflexes as you can hold block well before an enemy attack and block it). Needing to kill with a headshot in a shooter is harder than killing with body shots as one requires better aim than the other. How else am I supposed to define skill-based difficulty? All you can do is compare from one game to another.

How do you not get it? The fact that you can play with a shield (even without strength character) and block everything makes Dark Souls an easy game. I shouldn't have to gimp myself for a hard game to be a fucking hard game. Dark Souls requires nothing but caution and patience, those aren't really skills. Back in the day, games weren't just hard because you had to beat them in one sitting, you also had to nail all the tough jumps and avoid lots of incoming attacks. The only thing Dark Souls has is fewer checkpoints than most games. And really when you think about it that doesn't make a game harder, it just wastes more time as you are forced to constantly redo sections you can already breeze just to get back to the enemy, jump, etc. that killed you.