I'm tired of the anti-feminist circlejerk here (and every where else on the internet)

[Mortons4ck]

Well then, you'll be relieved to learn that there is plenty of feminist circle-jerking or circle-schlicking (CHECK YO' PRIVILEGE!) going on every where else on the internet.

 

[an annoyed writer]

simple thing: steroetyping.
everyone on the internet has an opinion about everything and most of those opinions are less than qualified.
there are feminists who arent really for equality, who even have some men-hate going on. Those are only those who stand out the most and therefor make an impression the easiest, that is never a good base for made-up knowledge.

I dont support feminists, cause I dont believe there is much you can actually fight for and most just needs to change in the heads of people. Also, enough feminist groups wouldnt want me and opress people like me...

Agreed and especially agreed on the last part. While I can agree with some of the founding principles of feminism, I could never bring myself to to identify as one because I generally don't want to be aiding someone in screwing myself and others like me over. Very counter-intuitive and masochistic.

 

[rob_simple]

You think I'd have a problem with a scantily clad Ryan Reynolds in my video games?

Oh internet, how little you know me.

 

[FavouriteDream]

The way I see it, unless you are educated on the topic and/or have a large pool of unbiased knowledge of feminism it is best to just shut up.

Every time a feminist debate comes up on the internet, you're guaranteed to see very little except straw men arguments. Normally it goes something like this:

Person A: I'm concerned about the way females are portrayed in video games.

Person B: Well if you think the gaming industry is sexist, why don't you just play the games that aren't sexist?

Person A: Well I never said the gaming industry is sexist, I just think some AAA titles appeal to traits in society that aren't desirable

Person B: Pfft. You never hear males complaining about games that have muscly male leads with chiseled jaws!

Person A: You hate women!

Person B: YOU HATE MEN!

 

[Calibanbutcher]

You think I'd have a problem with a scantily clad Ryan Reynolds in my video games?

Oh internet, how little you know me.

Personally, I prefer Ryan Gosling, but that's just me.

Also:
Hurray, got my first warning in this thread.
For stating that it might just be possible that the OP is a troll.
Which of course he/she is not. Not at all.
Shame on me for implying that.
Shame on me for even THINKING that someone whose first post consists of starting a topic with a very controversial topic might be trying to provoke a heated response from other forum users.

But my apologies if I hurt your feelings.
So here is a a response to your initial post.

It seems that every place I go on the internet, there's someone that says, "I believe in gender equality, but I don't like feminists." A lot of these people know nothing about feminism, and just attack feminists that don't exist. They attack straw men. If you're under 50 and aren't conservative, you probably shouldn't believe that the man-hating bra burners are a significant portion of feminists.
It's even worse in gaming. Gamers have given some of the weakest excuses for sexism in gaming. Few games have female protagonists, almost no games pass the bechdel test, and plenty of female characters are objectified, but whenever someone points this out, gamers get all defensive. How would you like to play a game with almost all female characters and the only male character looks like Ryan Reynolds and wears nothing but a thong and high helled boots?
Consider it this way;
A female gamer previously unknown outside of feminist circles launches a kickstarter for constructive criticism on a medium she enjoys. Plenty of commenters threaten to rape and kill her, and when she doesn't release the videos for a while, people make claims about her scamming people.
A male youtuber who frequently uploads MRA horseshit make utterly terrible comments to a rape victim on a "Men's Rights Subreddit." He later makes a video claiming he was bullied, and calls this a "minor trangression." As of now, he has 300,000 subscribers on youtube, and his videos get a large number of likes. Only feminists mentioned his misogynistic, hateful comments, and some people say he's not a terrible person, and describe his comments as "saying stupid things on the internet." But of course, there's no such thing as rape culture.
And something about all of the most powerful people in the world being men.
Despite all of this, feminism is not needed, and it is fact men that are being oppressed. BUT WAHT ABUOT TEH MENZ!????!?!??!?!

1. You talk about strawmen, yet you burn the hell out of this one.
2. Are women really into men wearing high-heels? Because if you want to sexually objectify Ryan Reynolds, wouldn't it make more sense to dress him so that he appeals to women?
3.I do believe that TAA got a lot of flak for his "minor transgression".
He lost a lot of subscribers over the subject, aka money, and generally didn't come out of this on top. And many people, such as yourself, still do hold it against him, indicating that it has not been forgotten.
4. And after that the post kind of deteriorates.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

I'm tired of people being tired.

DRINK SOME GODDAMN COFFEE OR GET SOME SLEEP

You'd think this was common knowledge but nooo, people are always tired. Well I got some news for you: being tired is WRONG! And morally abhorrent. I'm starting a new movement for the anti-tired culture, because we well-rested people need not be oppressed any longer!

But I don't have any coffee and I don't want to get off the internet. Stop oppressing tiredness, you're trying to take away my rights!

 

[attackshark]

i'm tired of all the circle-jerks. everyone chill the fuck out.

 

[Legion]

It seems that every place I go on the internet, there's someone that says, "I believe in gender equality, but I don't like feminists."

Welcome to the world of privileged teenage boys.

I wouldn't get too upset about them. One day we'll look back at such people with the same combination of quaint amusement and awkward embarrassment we feel when we think of the people who came before us who insisted that women were unsuitable for daily work or learning math. "They are a dying people. We should let them pass."

I assumed that people who say that are more likely to be people who do not want to be associated with what they perceive feminism to be. Like gamers who refuse to refer to themselves as such because they do not want to be associated with the more negative connotations.

 

[Zombie Sodomy]

We manly internet nerds tend to lash out at women a lot. I'm not going to say that this behavior is excusable, but I feel that many of us were disproportionately treated like crap/ignored by women growing up. I love women and most, ok all, of my friends are women, but I have to admit that there are times when I think back to High School, I just can't help feeling bitter. I know it usually wasn't intentional but, growing up with severe social anxiety, women made my life hell. Their presence made me feel judged and unwanted. Constant feelings of rejection have a way of staying with you and I think it turned me into a bit of a sexist. I know my anger towards women is illogical; and unfounded, and I am trying to work on it, but it is still there. I don't know how much of my experience rings true with the nerd community, but this has always been my theory on the hostility directed at women on the internet. That and people are sexist in general. The internet makes them fearless.

 

[the clockmaker]

It seems that every place I go on the internet, there's someone that says, "I believe in gender equality, but I don't like feminists."

Welcome to the world of privileged teenage boys.

I wouldn't get too upset about them. One day we'll look back at such people with the same combination of quaint amusement and awkward embarrassment we feel when we think of the people who came before us who insisted that women were unsuitable for daily work or learning math. "They are a dying people. We should let them pass."

I assumed that people who say that are more likely to be people who do not want to be associated with what they perceive feminism to be. Like gamers who refuse to refer to themselves as such because they do not want to be associated with the more negative connotations.

Exactly, feminism is suffering a major crises of both identity and image spurred by its more aggressive proponents. It is also suffering from a very big bout of 'with us or against us' and masses of moral high ground induced hypocrisy.

What about men is a valid topic for discussion. Discussing whether or not 'privilege' is a concept ultimately harmful to the pursuit of equity is also valid. Discussing the methods used to bring about equity is valid. Discussing whether or not the idea of 'feminism' needs to be distinct from the idea of 'egalitarianism', and what, if any differences of note exist between the two is valid.

Katori-kun's dismissive attitude is part of the problem, assuming that everyone who disagrees with him is a 'teen aged boy' young and stupid and arrogant. Feminism/egalitarianism should not be about shutting down discussion. It should not be a key 'I am a feminist, shut up and accept that you are wrong' magic bullet.

Though I am thankful that he/she did not trot out 'perma- virgin' line that several 'feminists' on this site have.

 

[bluepilot]

Battle of the sexes can never be won because there is far too much collaboration on both sides.

I do not think that there is much point in getting upset about what people express over the internet, you can pretty much say what you want with (mostly) no consequences and due to the anonymous nature people express opinions that they normally would not.

You see all these angry angry men posting hateful things about women and they either a) end up in prison, b) grow up, or c) die alone.

 

[Stalkingpanda14]

Gamers have given some of the weakest excuses for sexism in gaming. Few games have female protagonists, almost no games pass the bechdel test,

It's kind of telling that your first examples of "sexism" is 'games don't pass some arbitrary quota of female protagonists'. That's not sexism. The game companies did not get together and decide to only have 1/6 protagonists be women.

Also the Bechdel test is useless in games. If your game has a male protagonist odds are you're shit out of luck because most conversations that happen in the game involve or are about the protagonist.

Also the Bechdel test just sucks period. Women talking to men can give valuable insights into their character and so can monologues.

and plenty of female characters are objectified,

Whenever I hear this it's always people objecting to having women in the game in skimpy outfits or as blatant porn. Is that what you mean? Further more why should we care about the objectification of fictional characters? These aren't even movies where the person on the screen is a real person playing a character, in games the only things that could be real are the voice and the movements.

but whenever someone points this out, gamers get all defensive. How would you like to play a game with almost all female characters and the only male character looks like Ryan Reynolds and wears nothing but a thong and high helled boots?

I would ignore it. Just like I ignore 50 shades of grey.

Consider it this way;
A female gamer previously unknown outside of feminist circles launches a kickstarter for constructive criticism on a medium she enjoys.

I do not think she does constructive criticism and neither do a lot of her critics.

Plenty of commenters threaten to rape and kill her,

Not acceptable by any means but you know her or someone posing as her spammed 4chan until they raided the place. It's not that surprising.

and when she doesn't release the videos for a while, people make claims about her scamming people.

Not all that rare for kickstarter actually. There was one that I posted to and when they didn't meet their deadlines and update people with why, the commenters were demanding blood.

A male youtuber who frequently uploads MRA horseshit make utterly terrible comments to a rape victim on a "Men's Rights Subreddit." He later makes a video claiming he was bullied, and calls this a "minor trangression." As of now, he has 300,000 subscribers on youtube, and his videos get a large number of likes.

Is this the amazing atheist? Because if so that is the most dishonest account of what happened I've EVER seen. First off he's not an MRA, he's publicly distanced himself from them several times. Second he's apologized for his comments. Third he WAS bullied by other people in the thread (not that it excuses it) and finally most of his videos have nothing to do with feminism, or gender or whatever. So to paint him as this big shot MRA star is dishonest horseshit.

For someone who's concerned with feminism getting a bad rap you're doing a great job at making them look bad.

But of course, there's no such thing as rape culture.

Your evidence of rape culture is one person saying mean shit to a rape victim, apologizing for it, then remaining popular for making videos that are mostly not about rape. Really convincing stuff!

Despite all of this, feminism is not needed, and it is fact men that are being oppressed. BUT WAHT ABUOT TEH MENZ!????!?!??!?!

You know I've seen a lot of feminists who say 'gender roles/patriarchy hurt men too' and then there's people like you who pretend men have no problems at all and that we should never consider them ever.

Guess which group gives feminism a worse name (hint: it's the one you're in)?

TJ did not just say "mean things" and he wasn't "bullied" for that. He was "bullied" for THREATENING TO DROWN SOMEONE IN RAPE SEMEMN. And people say he makes good points about feminism. He doesn't. He is clearly motivated by misogyny, as he demonstrates by DENYING THAT PTSD EXISTS. He doesn't understand how horrible rape is. The only reason for that is pure hatred of women. Yet he makes good points about women pushing for equal rights? You didn't answer my point about the amazing atheist only being criticized in atheist and feminist communities, while Anita Sarkeesian got national media attention. Anita had to disable comments on youtube videos for being full of hateful misogyny, but the amazing atheist, a man who INTENTIONALLY TRIGGERED A RAPE SURVIVOR, gets nothing but positive comments on his videos. It's not just on 4chan, also. Almost every single game circle I've went to had nothing but negative things to say about her. It wasn't as horrible as the youtube comments, but nobody thought to think that maybe 51% of the population is underrepresented.

 

[Phasmal]

We manly internet nerds tend to lash out at women a lot. I'm not going to say that this behavior is excusable, but I feel that many of us were disproportionately treated like crap/ignored by women growing up. I love women and most, ok all, of my friends are women, but I have to admit that there are times when I think back to High School, I just can't help feeling bitter. I know it usually wasn't intentional but, growing up with severe social anxiety, women made my life hell. Their presence made me feel judged and unwanted. Constant feelings of rejection have a way of staying with you and I think it turned me into a bit of a sexist. I know my anger towards women is illogical; and unfounded, and I am trying to work on it, but it is still there. I don't know how much of my experience rings true with the nerd community, but this has always been my theory on the hostility directed at women on the internet. That and people are sexist in general. The internet makes them fearless.

To be honest I wish more people could just come out and say it like this.
I'm sick of nerds hating me because somebody wouldn't touch their weiner in school.
I am not that girl.

`Some black guy was mean to me in school so now I'm racist`- Acceptable?

And obviously, person I am quoting, you have realized it's not acceptable.
I actually had to say to someone the other day `I do not exist to deal with your problems with women`.

 

[Glasgow]

A quick question - when people say that some men being the most powerful in the world, do they really mean that to try and explain how men are better off than women?

Then does that mean that since much enterprise is controlled by Jewish hands (compared to its segment of the population), does that mean that all Jews are better or more successful than non-Jews, and that certain measures need to be taken to bring them down to the level of others or alliteratively raise the other 99.9% of the world?

Just a quick question.

I don't care. Political organizations and movements for the 'liberation' of women can do what they're supposed to do or just act as a platform for its leadership to abuse their powers. It's the same with other political movements. Then again, I would argue that men and women are not the same, and that all humans are not equal as they have different abilities and birth-rights. You should be all equal to the law of the land, but you can't expect me to treat two people the exact same way no matter how they look or what they hold dear.

 

[repeating integers]

Also, uhhh ... where exactly are all these feminists who are arguing for the execution and sterilisation of all men and transgendered people? Do they really exist in large enough quantities to justify the regular use of a Beckism? Have any of them ever managed to get published anywhere outside of their livejournal blog? And no, the Daughters of the Amazon in Y: The Last Man don't count.

They're rare, and IMO don't tarnish the mainstream feminist movement, but they do exist.

http://www.fstdt.com/Search.aspx?board=radfem+hub&page=1

 

[minimacker]

The definition of feminism is (Yes, really) for both genders to have equal rights and opportunities in life.

Unfortunately, this hasn't been achieved. But you know what bothers me the most? The differences that we perceive the genders. Women are seen as fragile flowers. Men are seen as grab-all providers. Men still make the most money in some professions, when they shouldn't. It should all be from what skills they possess. In what's socially accepted, women can slap men, men can't slap women. NEITHER of them SHOULD slap each other, but it's more accepted for women to do it because they're "more fragile"? Society needs to grow up.

The law says it's not allowed. But juries (and even Judges in some cases) are still running on this "socially accepted" mentality. Rape is also a big thing. If someone accuses someone else of rape, they're immediately branded as a rapist. Guilty until proven innocent. This is not the case for pretty much any other crime.

http://www.periscopepost.com/2012/07/the-damaging-impact-of-false-rape-allegations/

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/false-rape-charges-ruined-my-life-1.449522#.USNz9WfW4X4

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/rape-accused-my-life-is-in-ruins/story-e6freuy9-1226474720728

Edit: Sexual harassment is also a really gender-different thing. Men get laughed at if they try to file it.

 

[bananafishtoday]

I'm sorry but that dude is exactly the same as Batman. He is super ripped in exactly the same way.

I am truly sorry but I just don't see it. Is it the slightly pronounced buttocks? Wouldn't a girl who fantasized about this dude be a little...ehm...creepy? I don't see the differences between these power fantasies and sexual fantasies, whatever they may be. Unless your 9 years old you probably don't have Batman as a power fantasy. And noone fantasizes about fucking Nightwing -_-

And that was my original reply to Darkens post. Who in the fuck fantasizes about being Batman??Third graders? What do Bronies fantasize about when watching MLP? Why does everything have to be a sexual/power fantasy??

This is the biggest case of 'making a mountain out of an anthill'. This is also why a lot of people consider femminism to be kinda silly. Feminists aren't angry, because they saw someone IRL being actually discriminated against, but someone on the internet told them to get angry (same goes for men's rights).

Also: Why aren't you guys on a witch-hunt for Jessica Nigri?

It's not about the way the character looks in general so much as it is the way they're posed/framed in specific shots. Compare:





The former is sexualized, while the latter is powerful.

Or to kick it old school (NSFW):

Titian's "Venus of Urbino"


Manet's "Olympia"

In Titian's work, the subject is erotic, alluring, and essentially passive. In contrast to the painting it's based on ("Sleeping Venus" by Giorgione), Venus is not recalling a past erotic encounter but beckoning the viewer to engage in a future one. The soft light and use of midtones are meant to make the woman and the scenery blend together. The twin chests in the background, roses, and myrtle are bridal signifiers. The dog symbolizes fidelity, and its passivity and the woman's expression indicate that the intruder (the viewer) is welcome.

Compare to Manet's painting. First off, the orchids, shawl, bracelet, black cat, and a few other details indicate the woman is a prostitute. The stark contrast is meant to set her apart from the rest of the scene. Her hand placement serves the opposite purpose of Titian's Venus: here, the subject is asserting her sexual autonomy, maybe even her dominance. Her alert posture and gaze, along with the cat's hostility, communicate that the viewer is not welcome. (While most of us would prolly see this painting as relatively tame, it's hard to overstate how incredibly controversial it was in its day.)

(And this is less important than interesting, but the Titian painting was commissioned by an Italian duke who meant it to be "instructive" for his young bride... and the model was a courtesan. Manet's was largely intended to be a "fuck you" to the art establishment and featured a model who'd been in many of his other paintings [including the similarly controversial "Luncheon on the Grass"]... and they became estranged when she became an accomplished painter in the style he was so vehemently opposed to. Crazy!)

Anyway, my point isn't to rag on Titian or anything. I'm not saying we need to hate on artists from a different time or demand that contemporary artists all conform to one mode of depicting women. The problem is that woman are depicted as objects of male desire far too often, and it's important to recognize when this happens and why this happens.

Others in this thread have argued that it's not that big of a problem, and I get where they're coming from. It wouldn't be a problem in isolation. But in reality, it's one aspect of a pervasive mindset that has damaging consequences, and it's a symptom of larger problems with society's image of women in general.

Re: Jessica Nigri, my view is she can do whatever she likes. There's a whole "sexualization of self as empowerment or disempowerment" debate that's been going on for decades, and it's a conversation worth having, but honestly... it's not really worth having on these forums.

simple thing: steroetyping.
everyone on the internet has an opinion about everything and most of those opinions are less than qualified.
there are feminists who arent really for equality, who even have some men-hate going on. Those are only those who stand out the most and therefor make an impression the easiest, that is never a good base for made-up knowledge.

I dont support feminists, cause I dont believe there is much you can actually fight for and most just needs to change in the heads of people. Also, enough feminist groups wouldnt want me and opress people like me...

Agreed and especially agreed on the last part. While I can agree with some of the founding principles of feminism, I could never bring myself to to identify as one because I generally don't want to be aiding someone in screwing myself and others like me over. Very counter-intuitive and masochistic.

I'm not trying to invalidate your experience or change your mind... your objections are legitimate and too often ignored. But I just wanted to say there are many of us within the community vehemently opposed to the women-born-women bullshit. (I'd like to think we're in the majority, but obv I don't have any evidence of this.)

 

[Stalkingpanda14]

The definition of feminism is (Yes, really) for both genders to have equal rights and opportunities in life.

Unfortunately, this hasn't been achieved. But you know what bothers me the most? The differences that we perceive the genders. Women are seen as fragile flowers. Men are seen as grab-all providers. Men still make the most money in some professions, when they shouldn't. It should all be from what skills they possess. In what's socially accepted, women can slap men, men can't slap women. NEITHER of them SHOULD slap each other, but it's more accepted for women to do it because they're "more fragile"? Society needs to grow up.

The law says it's not allowed. But juries (and even Judges in some cases) are still running on this "socially accepted" mentality. Rape is also a big thing. If someone accuses someone else of rape, they're immediately branded as a rapist. Guilty until proven innocent. This is not the case for pretty much any other crime.

http://www.periscopepost.com/2012/07/the-damaging-impact-of-false-rape-allegations/

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/false-rape-charges-ruined-my-life-1.449522#.USNz9WfW4X4

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/rape-accused-my-life-is-in-ruins/story-e6freuy9-1226474720728

Edit: Sexual harassment is also a really gender-different thing. Men get laughed at if they try to file it.

Are you seriously trying to argue that false rape charges are a serious problem? Why would a woman lie about that? Do you not consider how misogynyistic that is?

 

[an annoyed writer]

I'm not trying to invalidate your experience or change your mind... your objections are legitimate and too often ignored. But I just wanted to say there are many of us within the community vehemently opposed to the women-born-women bullshit. (I'd like to think we're in the majority, but obv I don't have any evidence of this.)

I'm aware of that, and while I certainly hope that the more accepting individuals are the majority, right now I can't logically stand with a group that has such a vocal condemnation of me and others like me for our origins. Maybe when that has died down significantly I could call myself a feminist, but that's not today.

 

[minimacker]

The definition of feminism is (Yes, really) for both genders to have equal rights and opportunities in life.

Unfortunately, this hasn't been achieved. But you know what bothers me the most? The differences that we perceive the genders. Women are seen as fragile flowers. Men are seen as grab-all providers. Men still make the most money in some professions, when they shouldn't. It should all be from what skills they possess. In what's socially accepted, women can slap men, men can't slap women. NEITHER of them SHOULD slap each other, but it's more accepted for women to do it because they're "more fragile"? Society needs to grow up.

The law says it's not allowed. But juries (and even Judges in some cases) are still running on this "socially accepted" mentality. Rape is also a big thing. If someone accuses someone else of rape, they're immediately branded as a rapist. Guilty until proven innocent. This is not the case for pretty much any other crime.

http://www.periscopepost.com/2012/07/the-damaging-impact-of-false-rape-allegations/

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/false-rape-charges-ruined-my-life-1.449522#.USNz9WfW4X4

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/rape-accused-my-life-is-in-ruins/story-e6freuy9-1226474720728

Edit: Sexual harassment is also a really gender-different thing. Men get laughed at if they try to file it.

Are you seriously trying to argue that false rape charges are a serious problem? Why would a woman lie about that? Do you not consider how misogynyistic that is?

Why a woman would lie about that, I do not know. But it's not a speculative; I gave you three articles about it.