I'm tired of the anti-feminist circlejerk here (and every where else on the internet)

[Aaron Sylvester]

Being a 100% hetero male, I would buy that game. Ryan Reynolds is a sexy man lol

Probably, but you admit that you would be doing it purely for giggles/parody purposes.

Overall it would still sell fuck-all copies and leave the developer in ruin/hate. The overwhelming majority of core gamers (i.e. hetero males) don't really share your view desperately enough to blow $60 on such a product

 

[Ihateregistering1]

I love these threads, it's like a train wreck: it's terrible but I can't look away.

 

[Xdeser2]

'Feminism is not needed, and it is in fact men that are being oppressed' As much as I agree with this view, it means you are disagreeing with feminism.

You know you're not helping by posting that? You're pretty much saying "HAHA YOU ARE WRONG! WHY? BECAUSE HAHA YOU ARE WRONG!" to anyone who thinks that men sometimes need help too. I'd like to point you to this image:

Spoiler

Yes, it's from 4chan. If you counter it by simply saying "It's from 4chan" you have no good argument, and you're doing exactly the same thing this thread's complaining about.

Whilst I don't fully agree men are being oppressed, they are still facing a lot of sexism that just isn't focused on because women's rights are seen as much more important in the fight for gender equality. Gender equality has become an un-equal fight, with people insulting or laughing in the face of any man who wishes to say he might be a little down-trodden.

Now see that nowhere in that post did I belittle women or feminists, I'm simply saying that posting that damned video doesn't help your point if you're not going to back it up with some actual points.

[EDITED BECAUSE OF THINGS I DIDN'T MEAN TO SAY]

Men are not being opressed.

AT ALL

 

[Lonewolfm16]

snip

I have said it before, I will say it again, if we decide that it is wrong to treat a charecter in a work of fiction as a tool then we should have lots and lots of issues that aren't even remotely related to sex, and happening to both genders. To use Dead Space 2 as a example, in the first part of the game, before you are freed from a straightjacket a doctor tries to get you out and is then abruptly killed by a necromorph. Later after you run away you encounter two soldiers who are quickly grabbed from the celing and killed. We learn very little about the doctor other than he was related to a later charecter (a female actually), he was just there to set up the escape and give a quick jump scare. Same with the soldiers, except we learn even less about them. So, if these roles are not objectification, why is acting as eyecandy? Certainly a better position than being slaughtered for the players ammusment, which is a almost exclusively male job.

 

[kommando367]

There is a lot of anti-group circle jerking on the internet. Unfortunately for those not used to it, there is nothing anyone can really do about that.

 

[Zeke63]

amen to the OP yayaoh! Gender issues are the most problematic element of society. it affects everything from our everday lives, society at large, politics, and even pollution/environmental concerns. give it up for da op

 

[Lonewolfm16]

Men are not being opressed.

AT ALL

oppression is the wrong word, it implies systematic deprivation of rights and the like. Women are not being oppressed in modern society either. Overall I would say that both genders suffer from a fair bit of sexism, but sexism against men is much less noticed and doesn't have near as much advocacy pushing for its removal. As far as sexism goes men have it just as bad as women, at least in modern western society.

 

[Darken12]

I have to say...wut about the Assassins creed 3, Darksiders 2 and Borderlands 2 I would say those three are FAR from being sex objects, I would also say the Deadspace 3 one is not so sexual either but the one girls shirt is just a little low cut, but it makes the cut as it were.

The problem is that if we add the restriction "must be strictly sex objects" on top of what the poster already laid out, then I will obviously not make it to 10 examples when the pool of valid games to choose from was already pretty damn slim in the first place. When you say "give me examples, but they must be from this tiny, deliberately chosen sample that deliberately leaves most games that would prove your point outside", it becomes very difficult to prove a point.

CLEAVAGE IS A NORMAL PART OF FEMALE ATTIRE

All she shows is a little cleavage. That's normal. Apart from that, she's a regular character. Nothing to be up in arms about.

We completely disagree on this. Cleavage isn't normal attire in every situation. Police women, doctors, politicians, soldiers, scientists, office workers and many other professions consider cleavage to be inappropriate and unprofessional. In casual wear? It depends. You don't see a lot of cleavage when the weather gets cold or when it would be impractical for the activities they want to undertake (such as many sports), do you? Cleavage is only appropriate in very specific professions or in casual wear when the weather allows for it and it's not impractical or socially inappropriate (such as a funeral, for example).

IRL women sexualize themselves.

This is completely true. Women studies have delved deeply into the reasons for this and it's frankly not relevant to the thread. Whether women sexualise themselves or not IRL has nothing to do with their portrayal at the hands of male authors/creators.

As for "getting up in arms", I'll repeat what I've been saying in pretty much every sexism/feminism thread: it's not about creating problems or controversy where there are none. It's about bringing awareness of issues a lot of people have no idea about (because they aren't on the receiving end of them) and trying to generate discussions on how the entertainment media portrays genders and sexualities. Paraphrasing Jim Sterling (and many others), we don't criticise because we hate, we criticise because we love and want to see what we love improve.

EDIT:

snip

I have said it before, I will say it again, if we decide that it is wrong to treat a charecter in a work of fiction as a tool then we should have lots and lots of issues that aren't even remotely related to sex, and happening to both genders. To use Dead Space 2 as a example, in the first part of the game, before you are freed from a straightjacket a doctor tries to get you out and is then abruptly killed by a necromorph. Later after you run away you encounter two soldiers who are quickly grabbed from the celing and killed. We learn very little about the doctor other than he was related to a later charecter (a female actually), he was just there to set up the escape and give a quick jump scare. Same with the soldiers, except we learn even less about them. So, if these roles are not objectification, why is acting as eyecandy? Certainly a better position than being slaughtered for the players ammusment, which is a almost exclusively male job.

Didn't I bring this up already because I knew someone else would? Yes, I did. I said that those roles ARE objectified. When you are meant to see those characters as objects and not as people, they are objectified. It's not sexual objectification, but it's objectification all the same. And yes, I did bring up that when it comes to violence/murder, males are objectified as disposable mooks far more often than women. And I never said that this was right. What is your point? I said everything you brought up already precisely because I knew someone would bring it up as a diversion tactic.

Yes, men get objectified too (but almost never sexually). Yes, this is a problem. However, I am frankly tired of people only bringing up the problems with the depictions of the male gender whenever someone makes a valid criticism regarding the depictions of the female gender, with the unsaid implication that two wrongs somehow make a right. It's funny how male issues only matter when it's time to shut down feminist criticism.

 

[axlryder]

* Men flooding spaces devoted to discussing women's issues. "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN????" has become a meme among feminists because any time there's a discussion on the internet about women that goes viral, it's almost certain that people will forcibly try to change the topic of conversation to men.

I've actually noticed that tidbit and a fair bit of hypocrisy surrounding it. Often when I see a discussion about women's issues, I see individuals bemoaning how men don't have to deal with such issues or the awful double standards in play, yet when sometimes I point out "actually, some common issues that men deal with are fairly equitable to whatever is being talked about here" I'm met with "LOL BUT WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ!?" followed by mindless feminist circlejerking in a totally none ironic way that completely undermines any attempt at quality discussion. That's not representative of everyone in these discussions at all, there's usually some really level headed people who are happy to discuss things rationally, but that seeming hoard of condescendingly dismissive individuals is no less present throughout. It's like "Yeah, I get that you're tired of people trying to redirect the conversation to men, but I didn't even start this ball rolling."

I've seen that happen exactly like that no less than 4 times on different site, and I even pointed out that it would happen from the outset once, but they still forged ahead with a similar chant. I'm not saying it somehow changes gender dynamics or justifies misogyny or something, but it really gets under my skin. Just wanted to get that off my chest. No real reason for it lol.

 

[Rednog]

Here's the thing, at this point, I for one honestly don't care anymore.
As with politics, religion, and every other heated debate there's always the argument of "yes the problem exists with a small portion of the group, but that's not me." Ok it's great to know that not all feminists are of the crazy variety and are of the minority, but sadly they are the vocal majority.

And honestly the whole rallying to the cause, especially to the cause of feminism has really been tainted due to no one else's fault but their own. Instead of appealing to people in a rational manor, most arguments of feminism get put out there and the crazies run with it. Oh so there's a problem with women in videogames that causes women to stray away from it. That would be an interesting problem to fix, it's great to see more people brought into the videogame community. What are your points? Hmm I don't agree with X,Y, and maybe Z...oh what's that just because I disagree with your I'm a misogynistic troglodyte and I shouldn't dare to disagree because apparently being a white male basically equates me to being responsible for everything wrong with the world.

Sorry but I don't care what the argument is about anymore and certainly don't care about the cause. It doesn't make me an antifeminist, it makes me human. Very few people are going to rally behind a cause, no matter how good it is, if the methodology behind it sucks. I personally think this is the greatest pitfall of feminism, it alienates potential supporters and even turns some people against it.

 

[Austin Manning]

Almost all games with dialogue pass the reverse bechdel test. Name one game that passes the Bechdel test. Not passing the bechdel test not not make media sexist. It just proves that media is androcentric.

The Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Bethesda Fallout, and Elder Scrolls games all pass the Bechdel test.

 

[Giftfromme]

I love these threads, it's like a train wreck: it's terrible but I can't look away.

Ah yes the best posts to generate discussion.

step 1. User sees what may become a controversial thread.
step 2. Gets super excited
step 3. Doesn't read a single post and declares sarcastically "thread will go well etc"
step 4. Feels better about himself

I mean have you read a single post in this thread? There is some good discussion going on, but if you feel it isn't good, you should address those issues, not make a post to make you feel better about yourself.

I'll let you in on a secret: controversial threads can generate discussion!!! Amazing! Mind blowing! And that is exactly what is happening here.

I'm sure 4chan likes your kind of posts. Take them there please.

 

[CommanderL]

Here's the thing, at this point, I for one honestly don't care anymore.
As with politics, religion, and every other heated debate there's always the argument of "yes the problem exists with a small portion of the group, but that's not me." Ok it's great to know that not all feminists are of the crazy variety and are of the minority, but sadly they are the vocal majority.

And honestly the whole rallying to the cause, especially to the cause of feminism has really been tainted due to no one else's fault but their own. Instead of appealing to people in a rational manor, most arguments of feminism get put out there and the crazies run with it. Oh so there's a problem with women in videogames that causes women to stray away from it. That would be an interesting problem to fix, it's great to see more people brought into the videogame community. What are your points? Hmm I don't agree with X,Y, and maybe Z...oh what's that just because I disagree with your I'm a misogynistic troglodyte and I shouldn't dare to disagree because apparently being a white male basically equates me to being responsible for everything wrong with the world.

Sorry but I don't care what the argument is about anymore and certainly don't care about the cause. It doesn't make me an antifeminist, it makes me human. Very few people are going to rally behind a cause, no matter how good it is, if the methodology behind it sucks. I personally think this is the greatest pitfall of feminism, it alienates potential supporters and even turns some people against it.

You said what I was going to say and to be honest they last few months on this forum have been horrible remember when it was about the games I used to care but I am just over it all

 

[Darken12]

I have to say...wut about the Assassins creed 3, Darksiders 2 and Borderlands 2 I would say those three are FAR from being sex objects, I would also say the Deadspace 3 one is not so sexual either but the one girls shirt is just a little low cut, but it makes the cut as it were.

The problem is that if we add the restriction "must be strictly sex objects" on top of what the poster already laid out, then I will obviously not make it to 10 examples when the pool of valid games to choose from was already pretty damn slim in the first place. When you say "give me examples, but they must be from this tiny, deliberately chosen sample that deliberately leaves most games that would prove your point outside", it becomes very difficult to prove a point.

Except the ones I called out were not sex objects, they are just decent looking women.

What he asked for was

I want to see 10 women portrayed as sex objects in videogames that came out in the past 3 months.

Notice the "sex objects" part? Which those characters are not (Well, Asscreed 3 might, but I havent played that one, but from the picture you posted she isnt exactly a sex object)

I am going to assume that by "decent" you mean the old usage of decency as sufficiently clothed.

Personally, I consider that a lot of those women are inconsequential to the game itself and are only there because they were put on a dress with cleavage. In the case of the AC3 multiplayer, the rest of the characters are male (I think. I thought I saw a female native american, but she was also sexualised). The way I see it, developers don't want to work on female characters unless they fill a very specific role within a story (such as a male character's mother, sister, daughter, wife or girlfriend, or the elderly lady that gives cryptic advice), so when they have to work on female characters without a specific reason to exist, they tend to be shelved in the "sexy eyecandy" box. This, I think, is a throwback to the old adventure, horror and romance literature of the Victorian era. Tolkien, for example, was a great example of paying tribute to old legends, sagas and stories from his youth, and he created a world where practically all the heroes were men and the women were either prizes to fight for or secondary characters who had a key scene or two and then left the book without doing anything of consequence. Alan Quartermaine said, too, that women were nothing but a distraction in his adventures. Back in the day, practically all adventures involved male characters doing the things that needed to be done while female characters were always put in a very secondary role.

The current entertainment industry knows it can't do that anymore but still doesn't know what to do with women, so they get put into sexualised outfits so that their role is to look sexy. Other male characters in the same position might get deeper backstories, or fleshed out personalities, or just more overall care during design, but the female character often gets effort in the form of "how sexy/beautiful can we make her?" and that's pretty much it.

 

[PhiMed]

snip

Privilege is not the same thing as advantage. Whoever told you it was was lying to you.

So, let me get this straight. Even if nearly every single facet of public life (which is not exactly the case... yet... but we're moving in that direction) were to be intentionally skewed to give females the advantage, even if males are judged to be almost universally treacherous when encountered out of context, and females are judged to be almost universally "safe" if met under the same conditions, if some private interactions, somewhere, unfairly fell in males' favor, then all males would still be privileged?

Hmmm...

If that's the case, then I think that my initial impression of this word was correct. I first heard it used in this context in college by someone who was attempting to argue with the Western Civilization professor, and at that time I thought it was just a word feminists use without really having a set meaning in mind, its meaning changing to fit that which is most needed for whatever argument being made. Since it has no actual meaning, it cannot be disputed. It's just a verbal bludgeon used a trump card. It's just a coded buzzword the devoted recognize immediately, with no real-world connotation or application. Saying "male privilege" is a hackneyed truism. Nothing more.

Sure there are situations where its use is quite appropriate, societies where being male is truly an advantage, but its overuse by the zealots cheapens it to the point where using it in these appropriate contexts would understate the actual problem, causing most listeners to tune out due to sheer hyperbole exhaustion.

 

[Quadocky]

I wish I had an exact answer as to why misogynistic men on the internet is such a trendy thing, but pretty much only have some vague answers.

I mean, not much beyond me blaming annoying internet libertarians and conservative reactionaries.

If anything the only thing MRAs have accomplished is making Feminism relevant and a much more common point of discussion across the internet. Another thing they accomplished is showing how awful MRAs are.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

Maya from borderlands 2 I think is acceptible,

yes shes shown to be sexy or attractive but shes not a sex "object" her ourfit is form fitting but doesnt show much skin AND is actually somwhat practical (not a high heel in sight thank fuck)

she also playes an essential role in the story both canonwise and if you play as her alone (havnt finished BL2 yet...no spoilers)

shes an example of "attractive" but not "bash my head against my desk this is so fucking retarded" levels of fan service, again attactive charachters in games are not the same as sexism/ojectification

HOWEVER I am all for even more "practical" female charachters in games....but maya I think is a good female protagonist

EDIT: and as somone pointed out Lilith the original siren is more sexualised than Maya

 

[Darken12]

[snip.

Maya from borderlands 2 I think is acceptible,

yes shes shown to be sexy or attractive but shes not a sex "object" her ourfit is form fitting but doesnt show much skin AND is actually somwhat practical (not a high heel in sight thank fuck)

she also playes an essential role in the story both canonwise and if you play as her alone (havnt finished BL2 yet...no spoilers)

shes an example of "attractive" but not "bash my head against my desk this is so fucking retarded" levels of fan service, again attactive charachters in games are not the same as sexism/ojectification

HOWEVER I am all for even more "practical" female charachters in games....but maya I think is a good female protagonist

EDIT: and as somone pointed out Lilith the original siren is more sexualised than Maya

To be honest, I have no idea who the women in the photo are, or who are the people you and the other poster are talking about. I do admit that the characters I'm showing are definitely dressed far more tamely than what would qualify as sex object, but if I was allowed to bring Duke Nukem to replace it as an example, I doubt anybody would complain. Alas, the excessive constrains forced me to go for things that I wouldn't have gone for if I had 3 years of gaming instead of 3 months.

 

[Quadocky]

Wuh... I'll put this nicely. Mate, I don't think you're good at first posts, because that first post is a jumbled mess of assertions and half-points.

Every time this sort of thread gets made, the first thing I think is that it's far less productive to just make a thread for you to have your own soapbox (even if it's for one post) instead of finding one of the offending posts and replying to that person. "Boy, you lot are this and that" is a pretty meaningless and masturbatory way to have this discussion.

I don't have patience enough to decode your OP, nor the inclination to, but sort of on topic - I think most of the points made by feminists in these sorts of discussions are rather thoughtless and inane, and the non-stop outrages really grate my nerves. In a nutshell, I'm all in favor of actual women's rights, equal pay, all of that stuff, but talking about gaming (or any sort of art form) as something that has to meet a quota of equality (equality here being approval from equality advocates, which isn't quite the same) is really kind of ludicrous to me.

There is no quota, if its misogynistic or racist or problematic or otherwise, its just that. Its not like some crazy metascore based upon whether or not the piece of media has achieved a high enough equality rating to be considered a wonderful piece of pure and true equality media.

And, if you must know, there is quite a bit of problematic media out there. The concerns are justified in many cases.

 

[Vault101]

To be honest, I have no idea who the women in the photo are, or who are the people you and the other poster are talking about. I do admit that the characters I'm showing are definitely dressed far more tamely than what would qualify as sex object, but if I was allowed to bring Duke Nukem to replace it as an example, I doubt anybody would complain. Alas, the excessive constrains forced me to go for things that I wouldn't have gone for if I had 3 years of gaming instead of 3 months.

well thats kind of point then..western games are not that bad in terms of sexualised females, belive it or not alyx vance is actually not the only bastion of practical clothing in a sea of T&A mabye she was in 2004 but times move (I could name a bunch minor-ish charachters)

its having them as main charachters we have trouble with