Almost all games with dialogue pass the reverse bechdel test. Name one game that passes the Bechdel test. Not passing the bechdel test not not make media sexist. It just proves that media is androcentric.OhJohnNo said:
I'm tired of the anti-feminist circlejerk here (and every where else on the internet)
- Thread starter Stalkingpanda14
- Start date
Why is it that whenever someone ever EVER says "I think that men might be oppressed" too they get a bunch of replies like this. You're not helping your cause by dismissing other people's views because they're not your own. Actually debate, insulting and laughing at someone with a different view is the lowest form of argument and I'm surprised people on these forums use it to often.Stalkingpanda14 said:
I have this exact problem with people replying to anti-feminists with something along the lines of "You're just angry because you're a fat nerd who won't get laid!". You're insulting instead of actually debating, we would have never gotten anywhere if people just insulted eachother.
Muscles are a sign of power and strength. Boobs are a sign of sexual desirability. Are you saying that portraying men as powerful is the same as portraying women as objects? The gender roles for men you are talking about are patriarchal. Also, Many feminists are opposed to all gender roles, including ones for men.Ryotknife said:
I was criticizing you for not getting obvious sarcasm, not for your Men's Rights viewpoints, which has a presence far larger on the internet than in real life. Do you seriously believe that heterosexual, cisgender, white males that run 99.9 percent of the world's important shit are oppressed?ToastiestZombie said:
It sounds like you you are experiencing burnout.Stalkingpanda14 said:
It happens to me. It's happened to every feminist writer at some point in their career. Heck, it's happened to everyone who has ever thought deeply about gender issues.
Accept that you're trying to explain things which the majority of men are genuinely incapable of understanding. To a large extent that is not their fault. We live within in a sex/gender system and we are all to some extent caught up in it, and typical male subject position do not provide much ground for understanding the kinds of issues you are talking about.
This doesn't mean you should stop trying, but you should expect failure. Read, learn and adapt your own argumentation. Listen to the bullshit that comes out of the MRAs and learn how to counter it, because you can. Don't allow yourself to suffer for a second under the delusion that you can't. It's uneducated drivel, and the parts of it which are even coherent are merely cribbed inversions of now outdated feminist theories.
Also remember that the internet is giant festering wound on human discourse where the very worst parts rise to the surface. Real life is not as horrible as it might seem. The vast majority of people are committed in some way to gender equality now, and people like the MRAs are confined to the internet precisely because they are little more than an insane fringe.
It may seem a long way off, but your mothers and grandmothers would kill to be where you are now.
Privilege is not the same thing as advantage. Whoever told you it was was lying to you.ToastiestZombie said:
Criticizing me? You're original post wasn't targeted at me. Also, why are you implying that every male is a misogynistic bastard who opresses women? Why are you implying that the local binman has any more say than the average woman, or that Dave from accounting is somehow oppressing other women just by being a man. And not even 99% of the world is run by men, the leader of the most financially well-off and powerful countries in the EU is a woman, and women are in power positions all around the world. Men aren't like Nazis but for women, they're just normal people who can have injustices put on them.Stalkingpanda14 said:
Also, stop using cisgendered. It's a stupid word only aimed at men even though it's basically just for non-transexuals. Not being transgendered doesn't mean you're some sort of scum or terrible thing, and neither does being heterosexual.
OH JESUS CHRIST! You're basically saying that men are too stupid to join in this debate. How sexist can you get? Also, the image I posted from 4chan was using privilege in an ironic way, you aren't even bothering to counter-argue anything. That's the main problem I have with a lot of feminist arguments I see, you latch onto things without actually counter-arguing. Just saying someone's privileged, advantaged, cisgendered or a misogynist gets no-one anywhere. Actually making counter-arguments helps.evilthecat said:
As for the comments about feminists not confronting the extremists, I have seen several discussion from feminists on "Second Wave Feminism," as well as many criticisms of sex negative feminists. Have you ever heard of "slut-shaming?" It's an issue many feminists are concerned about. Women being harrassed for being sex positive happens, and feminists aren't happy about it.
Check my profile.ToastiestZombie said:
Do you want keep whining hysterically like a loon, or are you going to admit that you didn't understand? I'm cool either way.
Gee, I never got that.ToastiestZombie said:
No, wait. Actually, I totally did. It just doesn't work.
It's meant to be a joke at the expense of the concept of privilege, but even if everything on it was true (which it isn't) it's completely irrelevant to the concept of privilege because none of the statements on it relate to privilege in any way. They're all examples of situational disadvantage.
Why am I "whining hysterically like a loon" because I don't totally agree with feminism. If I said feminists were all whining hysterically like loons you would get pissed off, wouldn't you? And, please, explain to me what you mean by "Accept that you're trying to explain things which the majority of men are genuinely incapable of understanding. To a large extent that is not their fault. We live within in a sex/gender system and we are all to some extent caught up in it, and typical male subject position do not provide much ground for understanding the kinds of issues you are talking about."evilthecat said:
I'm pretty sure that's both talking down to men and outright calling them stupid.
Also, would you stop talking about damned privilege and actually counter-argue. You haven't said anything about the tens of points that point to men being somewhat oppressed too, simply saying "PRIVILEGE!" isn't a good counter-argument to the fact that most work-related suicides are male, most homeless people are male and male circumcision is legal, whilst female circumcision isn't when male circumcision is literally the mutilation of one's penis.
I'm going to bed.
Y'know what I'm tired of?
I'm tired of the fact that every single time this comes up, someone acts like every male gamer ever is like this.
I'm also bloody tired of even taking part in this debate.
No, seriously, fuck it. I don't give a shit anymore. This is a lost fucking cause as far as I'm concerned. I want women to be feel welcome in gaming culture, of course I do. But I'm not fighting that battle anymore, because any time I try to stand up for equality, I get someone accusing ME of being something I'm not because of little else but my gender and my hobby.
Screw it all. I ain't going to take part in senseless insults against women, but I ain't fucking defending them anymore.
And before some smart arse says it, no, this has nothing to do with "Oh, I'm a nice guy, and I never get laid". This is simply about expecting to be treated like I try to treat others; With respect, and with the approach that I'm innocent until proven guilty.
I'm tired of the fact that every single time this comes up, someone acts like every male gamer ever is like this.
I'm also bloody tired of even taking part in this debate.
No, seriously, fuck it. I don't give a shit anymore. This is a lost fucking cause as far as I'm concerned. I want women to be feel welcome in gaming culture, of course I do. But I'm not fighting that battle anymore, because any time I try to stand up for equality, I get someone accusing ME of being something I'm not because of little else but my gender and my hobby.
Screw it all. I ain't going to take part in senseless insults against women, but I ain't fucking defending them anymore.
And before some smart arse says it, no, this has nothing to do with "Oh, I'm a nice guy, and I never get laid". This is simply about expecting to be treated like I try to treat others; With respect, and with the approach that I'm innocent until proven guilty.
evilthecat said:
..really? You really think that "the majority of men" don't agree with you" because they are "incapable of understand" and not because they understand what you say but think that you're wrong? That's quite condescending of you. Perhaps I should use this line too the next time that a person disagrees with me on a political topic. It's not that they are intelligent and disagree with me, its that they are just "incapable of understanding".
Yeah, you're right. It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part to a viewpoint largely held by so-called "men's rights activists."ToastiestZombie said:You know you're not helping by posting that? You're pretty much saying "HAHA YOU ARE WRONG! WHY? BECAUSE HAHA YOU ARE WRONG!" to anyone who thinks that men sometimes need help too. I'd like to point you to this image:
Yes, it's from 4chan. If you counter it by simply saying "It's from 4chan" you have no good argument, and you're doing exactly the same thing this thread's complaining about.
Whilst I don't fully agree men are being oppressed, they are still facing a lot of sexism that just isn't focused on because women's rights are seen as much more important in the fight for gender equality. Gender equality has become an un-equal fight, with feminists insulting or laughing in the face of any man who wishes to say he might be a little down-trodden. If we lived in a perfect world feminism wouldn't exist, it would be equalism.
Now see that nowhere in that post did I belittle women or feminists, I'm simply saying that posting that damned video doesn't help your point if you're not going to back it up with some actual points.
Most of the information in the image is fine. But too often it's taken up by the MRA "movement" as a justification for spewing vile, misogynistic bullshit. (The thread's subject makes it rather clear that the OP falls into this camp. The info is mostly legit, but I'd be willing to bet money they see this as "proof" that women are the actual privileged sex in society, that feminism is about the hatred of men, and as justification for rolling culture back to the 1950's.)
Here's the thing: most feminists agree that sexism in society hurts men too. That's actually one of the big ideas that defines third-wave feminism (along with intersectionality, deemphasis of detached academia erasing personal experience, queer theory, and gender performativity, among others.) But most of these problems stem from misogyny. It is decidedly uncommon, frequently ridiculed, and often shameful for men to exhibit "feminine" traits or assume "female" gender roles, but this is precisely because those traits and roles are looked down upon by society.
Men face an uphill battle in custody disputes and (sometimes, occasionally, rarely) are assigned a financial burden for child support disproportionate to their income vs. the mother's because men are seen as breadwinners and women as caregivers. While women have gained ground in the "breadwinner" department (though they make less for the same work, and significant obstacles still exist preventing them from achieving the same level of success as their male peers), men who function as their child's primary caregiver are often scorned or ignored because doing this is thought to be beneath men. Men abused or raped by women (though examples are exceedingly, incredibly rare compared to women) are often mocked and frequently denied justice because the notion that a "powerful" man could be victimized by a "weak" woman is considered ludicrous by society.
I'd also posit that men are far more likely to commit suicide at least in part because of the narrower range of "acceptable" behavior available to them, but what makes "feminine" behaviors unacceptable is the fact that they are denigrated by society as whole. (To be fair, this denigration of femininity was exceedingly common in second-wave feminism as well, but most third-wavers repudiate it.)
The problems that feminists have with the "men are oppressed too" line of argument usually don't have to do with disbelief that men don't have it perfect. Instead, it's...
* Misogyny disguised as "activism," generally using information about problems men face to argue for putting women "back in their place."
* Men flooding spaces devoted to discussing women's issues. "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN????" has become a meme among feminists because any time there's a discussion on the internet about women that goes viral, it's almost certain that people will forcibly try to change the topic of conversation to men.
* While men do have problems, they don't have problems in the same way as women. Society as a whole is still heavily biased in favor of men and absolutely advantageous to men in nearly every way if those men are willing to assume traditional male gender roles. Most of the societal problems exclusive to men come from ways in which society devalues women.
Edit:
It isn't disbelief, it's annoyance with people trying to warp conversations about women into conversations about men. This happens all the goddamn time, and it gets old quick. These posts are frequently off-topic and almost invariably an attempt to dismiss the original article/post out of hand.PR3TTY_FLVCKQ said:
I was playing a game today called path of exile. Its really good. However i rolled a templar. Templars wear VERY short robes, NO leg armor but heavy armor all over. They also stand with their legs SUPER splayed. Like their stance is so awkward and unnatural, its just as MUCH leg spread as a man can humanly get. He ALMOST does the splits.Stalkingpanda14 said:
"This is retarded, why am i wearing total plate mail everywhere but my weird skinny legs in a tiny skirt thing which are spread like 60% apart when i stand still, this is totally immersion breaking wtf am i looking at i feel a little uncomfortable holy fuck this is how women feel ALL the time when they play games."
So basically yeah. Personally i dont tend to tell people im a feminist because people have forged a pigeon hole of iron and generalisation and its pretty hard to shift it. Feminism, to them, encompasses so many things that i dont agree with even though by my definition it IS feminism. So i just explain my views and let them label it however the fuck they want.
This whole shitstorm is people arguing over the fucking definitions of "The group that wants equality for all" to the point where they slam other people and generalise whole groups as "worse". Thats ALMOST as retarded as killing people over what happens after you die. Its makes NO FUCKING SENSE. Its OBVIOUS to everyone that isnt a total mire dwelling cretin that treating people nicely and equally regardless of what the fuck the hide between their legs be it a thousand tentacles or a fucking LAMP is what everyone should do. Most of the arguments i see are people trying to force and squeeze people into their pigeon hole because they identify as a label that both people define differently. These people fail to fit that person and then get angry and argumentative when that doesnt work. I dont know why. Both sides are (unequally) guilty of this but cmon its fucking stupid. As an egalitarian/feminist/greater spotted eagle or whatever the fuck you call my views im appalled by how much of the issues are burned down into label squabbling. This aint aimed at you OP this just makes me mad.
This right here is the reason I stayed out of the Sarkeesian debacle. I knew it had got extremely ugly and I didn't want a reason to curl up in my bed and feel terrible about the world.Stalkingpanda14 said:
That this man continues on after what he said is just bitter injustice.
So few people get this, I swear. You saved me from posting all of that in response to some of the "WHAT ABOUT THE MENZ???" I've been seeing in this thread. Thanks!bananafishtoday said:
So what are some specific genuine problems that face men that aren't misogynistic as you claim?bananafishtoday said:Yeah, you're right. It was a knee-jerk reaction on my part to a viewpoint largely held by so-called "men's rights activists."ToastiestZombie said:You know you're not helping by posting that? You're pretty much saying "HAHA YOU ARE WRONG! WHY? BECAUSE HAHA YOU ARE WRONG!" to anyone who thinks that men sometimes need help too. I'd like to point you to this image:
Yes, it's from 4chan. If you counter it by simply saying "It's from 4chan" you have no good argument, and you're doing exactly the same thing this thread's complaining about.
Whilst I don't fully agree men are being oppressed, they are still facing a lot of sexism that just isn't focused on because women's rights are seen as much more important in the fight for gender equality. Gender equality has become an un-equal fight, with feminists insulting or laughing in the face of any man who wishes to say he might be a little down-trodden. If we lived in a perfect world feminism wouldn't exist, it would be equalism.
Now see that nowhere in that post did I belittle women or feminists, I'm simply saying that posting that damned video doesn't help your point if you're not going to back it up with some actual points.
Most of the information in the image is fine. But too often it's taken up by the MRA "movement" as a justification for spewing vile, misogynistic bullshit. (The thread's subject makes it rather clear that the OP falls into this camp. The info is mostly legit, but I'd be willing to bet money they see this as "proof" that women are the actual privileged sex in society, that feminism is about the hatred of men, and as justification for rolling culture back to the 1950's.)
Here's the thing: most feminists agree that sexism in society hurts men too. That's actually one of the big ideas that defines third-wave feminism (along with intersectionality, deemphasis of detached academia erasing personal experience, queer theory, and gender performativity, among others.) But most of these problems stem from misogyny. It is decidedly uncommon, frequently ridiculed, and often shameful for men to exhibit "feminine" traits or assume "female" gender roles, but this is precisely because those traits and roles are looked down upon by society.
Men face an uphill battle in custody disputes and (sometimes, occasionally, rarely) are assigned a financial burden for child support disproportionate to their income vs. the mother's because men are seen as breadwinners and women as caregivers. While women have gained ground in the "breadwinner" department (though they make less for the same work, and significant obstacles still exist preventing them from achieving the same level of success as their male peers), men who function as their child's primary caregiver are often scorned or ignored because doing this is thought to be beneath men. Men abused or raped by women (though examples are exceedingly, incredibly rare compared to women) are often mocked and frequently denied justice because the notion that a "powerful" man could be victimized by a "weak" woman is considered ludicrous by society.
I'd also posit that men are far more likely to commit suicide at least in part because of the narrower range of "acceptable" behavior available to them, but what makes "feminine" behaviors unacceptable is the fact that they are denigrated by society as whole. (To be fair, this denigration of femininity was exceedingly common in second-wave feminism as well, but most third-wavers repudiate it.)
The problems that feminists have with the "men are oppressed too" line of argument usually don't have to do with disbelief that men don't have it perfect. Instead, it's...
* Misogyny disguised as "activism," generally using information about problems men face to argue for putting women "back in their place."
* Men flooding spaces devoted to discussing women's issues. "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE MEN????" has become a meme among feminists because any time there's a discussion on the internet about women that goes viral, it's almost certain that people will forcibly try to change the topic of conversation to men.
* While men do have problems, they don't have problems in the same way as women. Society as a whole is still heavily biased in favor of men and absolutely advantageous to men in nearly every way if those men are willing to assume traditional male gender roles. Most of the societal problems exclusive to men come from ways in which society devalues women.
Edit:
It isn't disbelief, it's annoyance with people trying to warp conversations about women into conversations about men. This happens all the goddamn time, and it gets old quick. These posts are frequently off-topic and almost invariably an attempt to dismiss the original article/post out of hand.PR3TTY_FLVCKQ said:
You accused me of something which had absolutely no bearing on anything I said and in fact made absolutely no sense. That doesn't exactly strengthen my faith in anyone's rationality.ToastiestZombie said:
I don't know why you people can't just teach yourselves feminism 101 before trying to comment.ToastiestZombie said:
Privilege is about value. It is not about who is advantaged or disadvantaged in different situations, because that is entirely situational. It is about whether your experience of the world is central to society or marginal to it. It's about how much your identity resembles that of the hegemonic (socially dominant) groups in society.
A black doctor and a white janitor work in a hospital. The doctor earns more money and does a more valued job, but this does not mean he has "black privilege". He's still a black doctor in a society where whiteness is, broadly speaking, hegemonic.
This is why arguments like "oh, I can't be privileged, my life is shit!" don't work. Privilege doesn't mean you're going to be respected and loved and showered with happiness, it doesn't mean you're guaranteed to have wealth or power, it just means you get to be normal and have the same chance of these things as a normal person would. This is why it's incredibly hard to see when you have it.
If men are oppressed by these things, then who is oppressing them?ToastiestZombie said:
What you're using now is called sex role theory. Ironically, it was one of the first feminist theories but was abandoned because it leads to precisely the conclusion you've come to, that "oppression" does not come from actual meaningful social interaction but from being socialized into a particular social role. The problem is, we are all socialized into a role. We all have constraints on our behavior based on who we are. That doesn't make us all equally oppressed, does it?
Oppression needs to have a source. Where does this one come from?
I have work tomorrow so I'm going to bed, but I'll check back tomorrow and see what your answer is.