I'm utterly sick of Game of Thrones

[dscross]

snip

I feel like you need to work on your diplomacy skills buddy. You use the word illegitimate when you could say unreasonable and the word complain when you could easily say criticism. These are words that are obviously going to annoy people and makes you look like you've never heard another opinion before.

Your opinion is as subject to bias as mine, whether you are aware of it or not and I never pretended mine were anything but opinions. i know I used words like hate, awful and misery to describe my distaste for GoT but that was clearly just a passionate argument and not directed at anything but the show I am criticising.

To use your phrasing again - the way you argue is illegitimate. I refer you to the contributor below your post who also disagrees with me but puts it in a much better way.

Right, with that out of the way....

1. Acting

I agree that it's subjective (as most OPINIONS are) but what I actually was trying to get across was that the PORTRAYAL by the actors is one dimensional. My issue is not with the characters themselves. (You clearly like the show, so I'd wager you have read the book or at least something around the characters). It's subjective so the only way to show this is to go through the actors and say what they do onscreen, which I did.

On TV, as a bad actor appears again and again, you begin to rationalise the badness, their under-, over-, or just plain wretched acting. Maybe this performance is inexpressive and uncharismatic because the character is inexpressive and uncharismatic. Some people are! Maybe it's not January Jones who can't put over emotion of any kind, it's Betty Draper who is so flat!

There's an easy test to tell (which many of the actors on GoT fail for me). Ask yourself, is it possible to imagine the inner life of this character? If no, is it possible to imagine the inner life of the characters surrounding him or her? It was all too possible to imagine the inner lives of every character on Friday Night Lights but Julie. Ditto every character on Mad Men but Betty. (Ditto every character on The OC but Marisa.)

Evaluating acting is, obviously, subjective. Some people find Kalinda on The Good Wife to be a Julie Taylor-ish cipher. I think, one can, from time to time, get a glimpse inside her mysterious head. Others feel this way about some of the girls on Girls, particularly Allison Williams- Marnie, who I think is perfectly good, and just had to contend with a lot of whiplash writing this past season. Jeremy Piven has been way over-the-top on Mr. Selfridge, but you can imagine his inner life - the problem is it's all in neon.

I'm sure you think Daenerys Targaryen is a great character because I know she's beloved by readers of the books. But imagine how much awesomer she would be if it seemed like there was someone really smart and sharp behind Emilia Clarke's very pretty eyes (which are only a little dimmer than John Snow's eyes) Clarke is functional enough to not destroy the show but if she appeared to have an inner life of any kind she would be worthy of the fan-worship she gets for her work on the TV show, not just residual book love.

2. Scenes

I feel like you are deliberately missing the point in this one because you want to talk about the specifics of writing and editing, which is a completely different criticism. My issue is HOW it's being told and HOW it's translating on screen for the reasons I described. Most tales set in that time is not done in this way. I think I've explained it somewhere in this thread but EVERY other show based on medieval times doesn't take place in this way. Most either follow fewer characters so it's easier to follow, or it takes place in a contained area (Henry VIII's court, Rome etc). This translates as difficult to follow. It is a broad point and I accept it's difficult to describe but I feel like it gets to the nub of the issue. If I picked on specifics about the writing you'd just find a way to call it illegitimate anyway.

3. Mythology

This is entirely subjective, I agree. I qualified it as much in the OP. That does not make it wrong or right. Opinions are opinions. What I will say is that, to me, it comes across like bad fan fiction, being a fan of the genre in many of its forms before GoT came along.

4. Tone

Again, I qualified this as an opinion. But it is joyless. You don't even dispute it, so it's a perfectly legitimate reason not to like something. The difference is that GoT is a long running show and to watch something like that with no respite from misery is draining. If you mean the game, Silent Hill 2 was a silly example. That's a completely different medium (and much shorter). I've not played it anyway.

 

[dscross]

WEll i think enough people told you you can just stop watching it, so ill adress the points instead.

1. The acting.

I disagree, i think the acting is pretty well done. It is dramatic, yes, but it is supposed to be. You have to be able to look at facial expressions and it certianly helps watching it in high quality for that. There are many subtle hints that show pretty great acting if you care to look for it. For example every time Littlefinger is on screen you just feel the presence his character is supposed to give.


2. The pacing

Its intentional and as a fan of slower moving Japanese cinema i certainly appreaciate. Yes, the storylines are slow moving, but thats just following how it was in the books. It also gives more realistic pacing and avoids constant cliffhanger gotcha moments so many tv shows seems to be infested with.

3. The history

I highly suggest reading "The Untold History of Westeros [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17345242-the-world-of-ice-fire]". The mythology and history of the world is much more consistent than you think, the show just doesnt spell everything out for you.

4. Joyless

I think thats quite a fresh breath of air in TV where almost every show good guys must win at the end of the episode. I understand that is not for everyone, and thats totally fine, but personally i enjoy the story being realistically grim where everyone looses. War is not a joyful thing, and the kingdoms are at war.

Thanks for your input. These are mostly fair enough and helpful criticisms. Points 2 and 4 you aren't disputing but you are saying some people like that, which I can accept. I addressed the psychology behind some of why people watch it in an earlier post so I won't retread it. What I will say is that I like Japanese cinema too and but doesn't feel the same to me somehow, for the reasons I described in the OP.

Point 3 was a helpful suggestion. I'll have a look to see if it can change my mind, but honestly, why should I have to do that? I can't dispute your claim until I've read it though.

Point 1 I disagree with but I'll have to cop out and say read my last post on this thread for why I don't think the actors pass the test for me (because the post took me a while to write). They seemed wooden to me from the very start. I am not beyond persuasion though, I just haven't been convinced by them in 5 seasons.

 

[dscross]

What bothered me about Game of Thrones was the lack of male role models.
Sean Bean, but he got killed off before the series even started. The rest of the males were either complete tools or had something else wrong with them.

It also had a weird obsession with emasculation.

Lastly, the series relied too much on shock factor. The problem with this is that it loses it's impact after a while.

I'll tell you why I find this post so interesting. This may address one of the main psychological reasons it's become so mainstream among women - some women may subsciously like how women rise to power in GoT. This is pretty much analogous to the difficulties women face in the real world.

I mentioned some of the other psychological factors that must keep the masses hooked in another post, but I definitely think it's a factor.

 

[stroopwafel]

I'll tell you why I find this post so interesting. This may address one of the main psychological reasons it's become so mainstream among women - some women may subsciously like how women rise to power in GoT. This is pretty much analogous to the difficulties women face in the real world.

I mentioned some of the other psychological factors that must keep the masses hooked in another post, but I definitely think it's a factor.

Fifty Shades of Grey and Bridget Jones is also massively(or rather primarily) popular among women. One could be explained as a fantasy about being submissive to an attractive millionaire while the other is an estrogen fest that is the extreme opposite. Women apparently search more for rough sex on porn sites than men but they are also the primary consumers of rom-coms ie that Hollywood dream version of traditional courtship.

I think you're drawing conclusions that aren't really based on anything. People are only honest in private when no one is looking over their shoulder. So the reason women like GoT might be different than you think.

In general women don't quite relish in power fantasies like men do. Some may do sure but I don't think that is the reason why GoT is so popular among a huge audience that transcends niche and subcultures and also gender. The reason is that GoT is just a damn good show with compelling drama, colorful characters, intense acting and the escape of a medieval fantasy world. And again, such shows don't quite come in large supply.

 

[the December King]

What bothered me about Game of Thrones was the lack of male role models.
Sean Bean, but he got killed off before the series even started. The rest of the males were either complete tools or had something else wrong with them.

It also had a weird obsession with emasculation.

Yeah, this also bothered me- not as role models per se, but the low count of men with some degree of scruples. And not so much at first, but as the series has gone on...

 

[dscross]

I'll tell you why I find this post so interesting. This may address one of the main psychological reasons it's become so mainstream among women - some women may subsciously like how women rise to power in GoT. This is pretty much analogous to the difficulties women face in the real world.

I mentioned some of the other psychological factors that must keep the masses hooked in another post, but I definitely think it's a factor.

Fifty Shades of Grey and Bridget Jones is also massively(or rather primarily) popular among women. One could be explained as a fantasy about being submissive to an attractive millionaire while the other is an estrogen fest that is the extreme opposite. Women apparently search more for rough sex on porn sites than men but they are also the primary consumers of rom-coms ie that Hollywood dream version of traditional courtship.

I think you're drawing conclusions that aren't really based on anything. People are only honest in private when no one is looking over their shoulder. So the reason women like GoT might be different than you think.

In general women don't quite relish in power fantasies like men do. Some may do sure but I don't think that is the reason why GoT is so popular among a huge audience that transcends niche and subcultures and also gender. The reason is that GoT is just a damn good show with compelling drama, colorful characters, intense acting and the escape of a medieval fantasy world. And again, such shows don't quite come in large supply.

i only said it could be one factor and I was just throwing it out there as a thought rather than drawing any broad conclusions. I listed a load more reasons why I think people could like psychological more generally in an earlier post. I don't think it's true to say most women aren't interested in power struggles in any way tbh. I don't know what you are basing that assumption on. 50 shades and Bridget Jones are a different type of programme entirely.

 

[Gal_mor]

Oh story of my life I watched several seasons, after understood that I am too "into it", quit Game of Thrones. But it doesn't mean I don't like it.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I freakin' love it.

But I don't understand why people do what you just did. If you don't like something on the TV, just don't watch it. Why would you let something like a TV show have such a negative effect on your life? You poor tortured soul.

 

[Strazdas]

Point 3 was a helpful suggestion. I'll have a look to see if it can change my mind, but honestly, why should I have to do that? I can't dispute your claim until I've read it though.

Well obviously noone can force you to read outside material for the show. Especially since you dont like it to begin with. Im just saying that by setting out history in orderly fashion instead of bits and pieces as pertinent to characters at hand it is much more consistent and if you are having problem seeing the consistency then the book may help.

 

[dscross]

I freakin' love it.

But I don't understand why people do what you just did. If you don't like something on the TV, just don't watch it. Why would you let something like a TV show have such a negative effect on your life? You poor tortured soul.

Oh I have never done it with any other show because no show annoys me like this one. GoT is my biggest annoyance - it's mainly because it's so your face with everyone I know. And no it doesn't have a massive impact on my life - I can compartmentalise my life - this is just a forum where we talk about popular culture. It's criticising a show - it's fine.

This thread helps me to get a feel for everyone's feelings about it because I really don't understand it for the reasons outlined. The best way to get a reaction and to find out people's true feelings on a forum like this is to provoke a reaction. Case in point. You replied and spoke your true feelings.

I've actually learnt a lot from this thread.

 

[bartholen_v1legacy]

However, I'm not saying this as a fan. I'm saying this as someone who was told it was good, who was told it will get better in a bit, who was told it will get better a bit after that. And then I stopped watching.

I'm curious as to who would say that. I'd say that if you don't like the first 3 or so episodes, you're not going to enjoy the series at all. I was in love within watching 30 minutes of the pilot, and the first 2 seasons are still IMO the benchmark of the series. By the third season I'd read all the books, so I knew how much was missing, and the cracks started to appear. Season 4 and 5 dropped drastically in quality because of the fractured narrative brought on by the waste of time known as Feast for Crows, resulting in an endless slog that goes nowhere, because characters A and B have to be at place C at the same time characters X, Y and Z are at location Q. Some parts of season 5 were downright groan-worthy and plain bad.

Which is why I started to enjoy the show much more in season 6 when they just threw their hands into the air and said "Fuck it, we're doing our own thing now", went full circle with the stupid, and came back to wholly entertaining again. Things actually fucking happened! The story could surprise once again.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

Which is why I started to enjoy the show much more in season 6 when they just threw their hands into the air and said "Fuck it, we're doing our own thing now", went full circle with the stupid, and came back to wholly entertaining again. Things actually fucking happened! The story could surprise once again.

Season 6 is actually my favourite because it was the first time I really didn't know what was going to happen. Having read the books, all the major shock points had already been spoiled for me. But stuff like Cersei's wildfire trick? Didn't see that coming.

Plus, it came after season 5, which was atrocious and made everything else look like a masterpiece in comparison.

 

[dscross]

Even if it's just in the most basic way possible, the series can trigger a lot of emotions. That's not something you find in just any random TV series.

You find that in most dramas...

 

[dscross]

Maybe it's just me, but this show feels almost completely devoid of joy. Every time I watched it, I found myself sitting and staring at the screen and questioning why I just subjected myself to such misery. No one ever wins in this show. Every single character is sad, either because the world they live in has made them that way or because they themselves are living the consequences of their shitty choices. The kingdom of the Iron Throne is a bleak, bitter, and hateful place where, personally, I find the people to be of commensurate character.

Ah, that's what we in the writing (or trope) biz call "Darkness induced apathy syndrome" or "Warhammer40k syndrome". Alternatively "Why the hell do I even care syndrome".

It's a pitfall that a lot of people fall into when writing dark fantasy of any kind. It's tempting to try to write a world that feels as depressing and devoid of the hope to make any difference as our own, only with dragons. But that overlooks the fact that even our own depressingly violent world has patches of joy here and there.

It's something I keep in mind whenever I work on a game my main RPG setting. While the world itself will always be a violent world where every single faction is out for themselves and is dangerously corrupt or broken in some way no matter what the heroes manage to do, they can still improve the lives of those around them, or achieve some small victory, even though it always comes with a heavy cost. Making a broken, depressing world where there's no hope or joy rarely ends up being fun for anyone.

Yeah I never thought of it this way. Thinking about it, not many Japanese RPGs fall into the trap and Tolkien / Terry Pratchett certainly didn't because they always had a uplifting message buried in there.. Maybe if you are going to watch a drama set in real life it's not as much of a problem to make it more gritty anyway but when you want some escapism into the realm of fantasy you want some elements that are uplifting.

I've never really played warhammer? Is that phrase because it's really depressing or something?

 

[wizzy555]

I've never really played warhammer? Is that phrase because it's really depressing or something?

well playing warhammer is about painting cool models and doing strategy. But when you understand the lore you realise that their universe is so depressing that its probably morally preferable if every living being euthanized themselves. Except they can't do that because it would probably feed a cosmic evil that would just make the universe even worse.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

I've never really played warhammer? Is that phrase because it's really depressing or something?

Warhammer literally defined "grimdark" in its infamous intro to Warhammer 40,000;

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable. These are the tales of those times. Forget the power of technology and science, for so much has been forgotten, never to be re-learned. Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim darkness of the far future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods.

If you ever hear someone say "grimdark," that's where that came from. Warhammer's fantasy and sci-fi settings are so absurdly depressing and fatalistic that it veers well into the realm of self-parody. It's so depressing that it goes all the way around and becomes hilarious. It's the kind of setting where a general can order that his men hurl themselves at enemy fortifications in such numbers that their bodies may be used as a ramp for the reinforcements to climb up and have that be treated not only as a serious military strategy, but a sensible one.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

I've never really played warhammer? Is that phrase because it's really depressing or something?

Warhammer 40K, specifically.

It's the sci-fi setting with the space marines and chaos gods.

Where the closest things you have to good guys are:

Eugenics-practicing space elf aliens who seem to have a half-decent living standard, but are probably keeping everyone under mind-control of some kinds as well as treating any refugees/new colonies that aren't of their race as second class citizens, and still send billions to go fight the endless forces of the Chaos gods.

The humans, who will basically destroy your entire planet if even one dude is like "You know, maybe the chaos gods are right.", and who regularly torture people who might have once talked to someone who once talked to someone who didn't adore the God-Emperor (who is locked in endless life support).

And where the bad guys are everyone else, but especially the chaos gods who are legit murder-Cthulhu beings.

Oh, and if your planet is blown up, no big deal, you're one planet among billions. Billions die every day.

Honstly, the only faction that has their head on straight is the orks, who are like "we like fighting stuff! Fight stuff! Yayyyyy, no end goal, just fight stuff!"

 

[NPC009]

Even if it's just in the most basic way possible, the series can trigger a lot of emotions. That's not something you find in just any random TV series.

You find that in most dramas...

The typical drama doesn't have many stakes beyond the characters' personal lives though. In Game of Thrones death is not just a personal loss, it's something that affects the course of history. Small world versus big world. (And that big world happens to feature epic shit like dragons, huge battles and ice zombies - good luck finding all that somewhere else.)

 

[dscross]

To your list of reasons not to watch, I would add (and I admit that this is subjective) that every so often the show looks like it might start be worth watching, and then changes its mind as if to mock me. Also, that it cost a zillion times more money than a lot of better shows that really needed a budget increase.

If I gave a crap about anything in the show, I'm sure the cliffhangers would be incredibly hooking.

 

[dscross]

I read the first book, and it was pretty clear that the author was deliberately trying to mess with the reader. There's a duel to the death between very minor characters at one point, where I correctly predicted who would die based on which character was described sympathetically. I finished out the book, but I had no interest in continuing.

I never thought it was that clever. You are right there's something contrived about it - like he's not really writing for any particular purpose except to try to shock people. I find it quite shallow in terms of themes, metaphors, subtleties and even humour. There's a better show for almost every conceivable thing for me.