Oh no, somebody hates something popular, and here in the Escapist forums of all places. God forbid.
I'm utterly sick of Game of Thrones
- Thread starter dscross
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Thaluikhain said:
bastardofmelbourne said:
I really hate these kinds of responses.[footnote]Yes, there is more to your posts that I've snipped out. I'm taking issue with the sentiment quoted only[/footnote] They come across as dismissive, condescending, obvious, and don't contribute anything to the discussion. Of course OP realizes that he is allowed not to watch the show, he says as much in the first paragraph "I have watched a few seasons with friends who like the show, and now I have to flatly refuse."Fiz_The_Toaster said:
People should be allowed to criticize shows that they don't like, if others disagree they should argue against the points on their own merits. Not dismiss the criticism out of hand because the person "doesn't have to watch the show." OP has watched several seasons of the show, that is a significant time investment in which many thoughts and emotions can arise. It's better to hash it out and then move on, rather than bottling it all up forever.
Wait, these are opinions?? I'm shocked! SHOCKED!! I was under the impression it was pure hard fact. OP you lied to me!!Happyninja42 said:
Oh wait, no he didn't. Obviously, statements about the overall enjoyability and quality of works of entertainment are completely subjective. You don't need to add disclaimers to every single statement labeling it as an opinion, when it inherently is so.
And in fact, OP did actually include several subjectivity qualifiers which you missed in your rush to dismiss his arguments and state the obvious.
I enjoy the show but to paraphrase someone I read on Twitter, I'm also very ready for it to be over.
Previous seasons have been somewhat all over the place but so far this one has been the most consistently...I don't know, grim and yet somehow really dull? I mean, Euron has to be one of the worst antagonists this show has ever given us. He looks and acts like he should be running a Goddamn hooligan firm somewhere in east London. And that bit with Cersei
made me uncomfortable and not in a particularly good way. We get it. Cersei is really horrible. Change the fucking record.
Anyway, I'll watch to the end because I've already invested this much time but I never really felt as though the show quite reached the same levels as other shows like The Wire or The Sopranos or Mad Men or even newer stuff like the latest Black Mirror episodes. It is, at times, well acted, interesting and is very well produced but ultimately fluff, IMHO.
Previous seasons have been somewhat all over the place but so far this one has been the most consistently...I don't know, grim and yet somehow really dull? I mean, Euron has to be one of the worst antagonists this show has ever given us. He looks and acts like he should be running a Goddamn hooligan firm somewhere in east London. And that bit with Cersei
poisoning Ellaria Sand's kid and giving us yet another long-winded speech about revenge etc.
Anyway, I'll watch to the end because I've already invested this much time but I never really felt as though the show quite reached the same levels as other shows like The Wire or The Sopranos or Mad Men or even newer stuff like the latest Black Mirror episodes. It is, at times, well acted, interesting and is very well produced but ultimately fluff, IMHO.
Okay...?Drathnoxis said:
Also, I never said that the show was perfect, and I've also said that there are things that I don't like that I think are stupid, but that I don't go seeking them. I'm not gonna stop people from enjoying a thing I don't like, in my case Harry Potter. I think the books and movies are stupid, and incredibly boring. Not gonna be on my friend's case if they talk about it when I'm around and making references I don't get. Because I don't really care.
Perhaps that is just me.
Also also, what do you want the rest of us to say? He's clearly made up his mind and he just wanted a vent. Furthermore, don't presume my intentions because I never said "You don't deserve to watch a thing", nor was I condescending. I'm just wondering why he's making a deal about a piece of entertainment that he doesn't like and can clearly avoid.
Well I love game of thrones. But this season has had some of the most awkward and terrible dialogue yet. It sounds like a fanfiction writer took too many memberberries. "Hey remember that cool line Tyrion said in Season 1", "Hey Sansa, Bran and Arya used to be naive children without a care in the world, look AT THE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT GRR did. LOOK AT IT!"
The battle scenes are good though, but the story feels like it is "wrapping up cheaply".
EDIT: I mean they even had the "Remember when Stanis corrected him saying 'less' instead of fewer" in this episode.
The battle scenes are good though, but the story feels like it is "wrapping up cheaply".
EDIT: I mean they even had the "Remember when Stanis corrected him saying 'less' instead of fewer" in this episode.
Some of the things in this list: fair enough. But sometimes I feel like you are missing things or misjudging some characters alltogether. Secondly, I don't always hate simplified characters. Sometimes characters are mostly a way to explore certain character traits and are therefore represented in simplistic extremes. I'd like to go by the list you gave one by one to give at least some of the reasons why I think those characters have more to them than you think. Not all of them, in the case Jaime, Ramsey or Daario amongst others I basically agree that they are kind of boring or don't really work.dscross said:
Jon knowing nothing represents his arrogant behaviour early on as a young adult with an inflated ego, it represents the fact that the peoples north of the wall of whom he knows nothing will generally go unremembered when most of them die, despite how much their differing cultures mean to them, and it is a motif in his relation to the woman he loves. There defenitely is some narrative content there.dscross said:
That isn't really her shtick. She is the hateful, vengeful one. The one who takes all the unfairness she sees and wants to become a kind of angel of death to cruelly avenge it all. Secondly, her questions go unanswered because a lot of them adress the systemic unreasonableness of the world she lives in. Generally there are no easy anwers to her questions, not for the charactars inside that world at least, who don't want to fully admit to how awful the world they participate in really is. As a side note, I used to like her character very much, though I have been somewhat disappointed in her plot, character and arc in recent seasons. I find her new incarnation as an actually succesful angel of vengeful death to be rather dull and inhuman.dscross said:
Cercei is a bit of a onedimensional character but I think that is on purpose. Her inability to have personal growth, to learn from her mistakes or to reasonably assess her own power and abilities are part of her character. It being onedimensional is a result of that and is deliberate.dscross said:
I don't know how far you got but this definitely does change. She becomes a lot more willful somewhere from season 5 onwarth and if you remember, she was just a bit of a ***** in season one. In a sense this does swap out one somewhat simple character for another but there is at least some growth and change there.dscross said:
While true, that somewhat oversimplifies the character. He is the smart talker, always has a witty response. He is also the relatively decent/squeamish person amongst the lannisters and in kingslanding in general. Lastly, he is a clever manager.dscross said:
Fair enough. I personally don't think Jaime was that well done. What I find interesting about him is, in my opinion, already done better by the hound.dscross said:
I didn't hate that, but yes.dscross said:
His character is also just not that important. He is often a bit of a last moment unexpected trump card and that's it. I don't think it is entirely fair to expect this character to have that much depth.dscross said:
Is also in love with Cathelyn Stark/Tully.dscross said:
Well yes, but that somewhat hides that he is that in a not entirely simplistic way.dscross said:
That is his job, not his character. He is the one that has a lot of abstract talks about the nature of power. More importantly, he is one of the very few people who seems to take a view towards the common good. He plays the game of Thrones perhaps but he doesn't have a house and more importantly, doesn't care about having a house. He doesn't want his name to last but peace, hapiness and all that stuff. This is mixed with an understandable hatred for fire sorcerers and priests.dscross said:
True, but partial. He is also the straight guy. The one who wants Daenerys to get results and reminds her of the practical problems the faces.dscross said:
So from your desribtion she already isn't just one thing. I do find it weird to describe her as 'she don't need no man because she's an independent woman'. She is married quickly and is very reliant on her husband to the point that when he dies the aftermath nearly gets her killed in multiple ways. She also has a relationship with Daario later.dscross said:
Agreed. I would like to note that Daario's first actor did a much better job. First Daario was a considered hedonist with standards of his own, who had no problem with being weird for his principles. This gave him a sort of mysterious charisma. The second Daario is just a bimbo.dscross said:
What I find interesting about her is that she represents a strangely humane way of playing the game of thrones. Yes, she wants to be the queen and she doesn't shy back from being manipulative but she hardly ever actively hurts anyone. Whatever her precise motives for helping the poor, the poor are still helped more by her than by Cercei or anyone else.dscross said:
That is what, one scene? He is insecure, friendly and manipulable. Though with this one, I agree he is a bit overly simple and obvious.dscross said:
Hodor is also weirdly benevolent. In any case, I think it is somewhat unfair to ask too much depth from a character that is not that important and mentally handicapped to the point where he can't speak and has an obviously very limited understanding of the world around him.dscross said:
Yeah, basically.dscross said:
So that became more of a wall of text than I intended. I spoilered it for space.
Well, yes but this has a rather large impact on the plot. Remember that I mentioned how 'you know nothing' can also be read as a statement about Jons lack of knowledge of the wildlings. Similarly the northerners keep saying things like 'the north remembers' and 'the king in the north'. These aren't just nice sounding phrases. There are large cultural differences in this world and it helps further fuel the antagonism between the differing factions. The northerners, wildings and dornish are all very different from eachother and from the more central kingdoms of Westeros. This has been sustained by slow travel times. I also find this interesting because it is different from the thousand other shows where everyone just has a cellphone. The lack of communications in the past really made a difference and I find it interesting to see that in the show. Another effect of this, is that characters don't always believe one another about important plot points like the zombie army. If Jon or one of the lord commanders could just send around some pictures of these zombies on whatsapp, or more realistically, invite some important nobles to look beyond the wall on short notice, he'd have a much easier time convincing everyone to help them fight that menace.dscross said:
I have to admit, I am not convinced that the fantasy elements do that much in the show. Besides these problems you mention I find the fantasy strangely half-hearted. Sometimes I almost forget it is there and other times charactars are suddenly hundreds of years old. This may be kind of the point. Half of the characters keep forgetting that magic exists and they systematically undersestimate its importance. This is why nobody bothered to get Dany killed properly and why most of the characters don't believe the white walkers exist. But for me it serves to make the magic feel strangely disconnected and thematically impotent.dscross said:
This complaint is also not without merit. Even if the joylessness of it all is part of the point, after watching it for season after season it becomes too bitter or too dull for a lot of people. I was a bit put off by some of the torture scenes myself. Then again, it isn't joyless by accident, I think. It is joyless as a result of the pointless and reckless game of thones and the inability of the players to consider any sort of greater good.dscross said:
There is also hope, I think. Some of the heroes who have survived for a long time are exceptions. Tyrion, Jon, Sam, Dany and Varys all do sometimes care about the greater good and all of them have survived for far longer than the other characters would have in their situations. Jon has survived capture by enemies, getting lost in the snowy wilderness, and has even been resurrected. Dany has survived weird adventures with wizards, being captured by Dothraki and other things that would have long since killed a lot of the other characters. These people have plot armour and their plotlines are in some ways more traditional and involve less pointless, hopeless loss and suffering. With all these characters there is the distinct sense (for me at least) that they are going somewhere because of the plot and that isn't going to be stopped by things that could reasonably stop them. I've heard the interpretation of game of thrones where the general misery keeps up untill the end and the end is, as one person creatively speculated 'littlefinger on the iron throne surrounded by whights about to kill him'. I don't expect that. I expect Dany on the throne, possibly with some decentralisation, loss of power for the nobility and an independend north. Possibly not Dany but Jon or even Bran. These rulers will rule in a new style. There are heroes to this show, the underdogs that will pull through after many adventures. The show has just thrown us a real long curve ball about it. Some might have expected Boromir to be the hero or his son, or even Oberyn. When they turned out to be very mortal, they lost hope or interest. I think that there are going to ultimately still be some heroes to this story.
I might be wrong though. Maybe Dany is assasinated next episode, Jon becomes a white walker, littlefinger kills Varys, Bran gets murdered by some holdout anti-wildling and anti-Jon people when trying to cross the wall, Sam never passes his calculus exam, gets sent away from the measters and gets murdered by mercenaries working for his dead and Tyrion gets stabbed by Jaime as vengeance for killing their father. I'd be surprised though.
Lastly, if you are interested in an eloquent perspective on the matter that is a little more positive than you are, and blames the show more than the books for some misgivings, you might want to check out mrbtongues video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek2O6bVAIQQ
edit: jesus christ. I didn't realise I even really cared very much about game of Thrones. I hardly think it is as good as the length of my post could suggest. I hope at least somebody has made it through this post. Otherwise, I guess I at least got to order my own thoughts about it, which I apparently needed to do. Have a good one.
I'm not sure what other response I could possibly give. The man doesn't like the show. I do like the show, or I like most of it. What else am I to say other than "guess it's not your thing?" Am I supposed to tell him that he's wrong and has bad taste? Am I supposed to suddenly up-end my own opinion of the show I like and go "no, you're right, it's terrible?"Drathnoxis said:
Like, what response is better than "your opinion is valid, as is my opinion, because tastes vary and no-one is forcing anyone to like anything?"
Well, we can talk about our tastes and tastes can change. I like some thing more than when I first saw or read them and some things less. Sometimes this is because of the interpretations of other people who have pointed out themes, motifs, etc to me. If somebody is being a dick about disliking something, your response would be in order but orderwise we can discuss these things beyond stating how much we like them. We can talk about how and why we like them. I've seen people, including myself, completely miss the point of certain stories or parts thereof. Explaining why these things made sense has helped them enjoy it more.bastardofmelbourne said:
But this sort of equalising 'everything is equally valid' does nothing but make everything equally unvalid, unshared and not worth discussing.
I feel compelled to respond because you wrote such a long well thought out rebuke to most of my points. Cheers for taking the time.Pseudonym said:
1. To your first points (I read all your critiques of what I think of the actors) - Ok, I admit I may have over embellished my point that all the characters are completely one dimensional. I was, however, trying to make a broader point that the acting is subpar and there are just too many characters to really flesh them out or feel anything meaningful for any of them. That's a huge problem for me when watching a series.
2. I stand by my point about the communication because I think it really affects the pacing of the show and the way the scenes work in conjunction with each other over a long period. The Tudors is in a similar setting (except it's based on real events) but it doesn't have this problem because it's takes place mainly in England - and usually in Henry's court, so there is a much smaller distance to communicate. This makes the pacing much better. Similarly, with Discworld, it's a huge world but they are all self contained stories either in one area or just following a couple of characters. Lord of the Rings' world is huge, admittedly, but the pacing and scene changes work much better because it's following just a few characters' adventures at a time for longer periods (plus it's a much shorter epic than GoT anyway so there is a lot less to follow).
You were pretty much on the same page as me for the other 2 points. I'd just point out that I wouldn't really call 'survival' hope. The characters rarely act happy or like there lives contain anything but misery. Even really bleak long running shows usually have some respite in them. Not much in GoT.
Thanks for the link. I'll check it out.
Then don't watch it any more. I am utterly sick of jabbing myself in the eye with this pointy stick covered in salt, I'll admit I was smart enough to see this pointy sticky eye interaction getting a bit boring three years ago but you know what I just had to keep on jabbing that stick in my eye and you know what I am gonna keep on doing it for a wee bit longer just to see if it gets any more enjoyable and guess what each and every time I jab this stick in my eye I am gonna turn up here and tell everyone just how annoying and tedious it's getting.
Honestly, I don't know how Game of Thrones is even a thing in a universe with the Kingkiller Chronicles in it. Patrick Rothfuss does a grimdark fantasy universe incredibly right but also does it without feeling the need to stab you in the heart every bloody chapter. It also has beauty in it to beautifully contrast the dark it shows.
Game of Thrones is the best show ever and is better than any single movie or series of movies or any art piece ever created. The show is completely devoid of any flaws and will centuries from now be hailed as one of the greatest works of art to ever be created. If you do not like Game of Thrones, I can assure you entertainment as a whole may not be a field you want to pursue.
A world in which evil and good, order and chaos, are shown completely unfiltered with every possible combination of them shown in some form through a myriad of houses and characters across a vast yet realistic world containing magic without the magic being unbelievable, is nothing short of what would be expected of the greatest show to ever exist. The acting is second to none. Characters are compelling in their own unique ways for good and for bad and mesh well together with interactions that are gripping and satisfying.
If there is ever a work created in our universe better than Game of Thrones, then that will not signify Game of Thrones has fallen short of perfection, but rather that perfection as an idea has evolved in its meaning. If you are sick of Game of Thrones, you are sick of perfection. Game of Thrones is second to none.
A world in which evil and good, order and chaos, are shown completely unfiltered with every possible combination of them shown in some form through a myriad of houses and characters across a vast yet realistic world containing magic without the magic being unbelievable, is nothing short of what would be expected of the greatest show to ever exist. The acting is second to none. Characters are compelling in their own unique ways for good and for bad and mesh well together with interactions that are gripping and satisfying.
If there is ever a work created in our universe better than Game of Thrones, then that will not signify Game of Thrones has fallen short of perfection, but rather that perfection as an idea has evolved in its meaning. If you are sick of Game of Thrones, you are sick of perfection. Game of Thrones is second to none.
It's not my cup of tea preciesely for the last reason listed, I cannot fathom why people enjoy their fantasy so devoid of humour and the goodness of life, it reduces the impact from when things DO get gritty and horrible. You must balance them because when the weight of the darkness does come crashing down it's all the more poignant.
But... alas I am not sick to death of it, I just ignore it, I do however get sick of people telling me that it's just the kind of thing I would enjoy because I play WoW and other RPG games.
No. No I don't enjoy it. WoW has a race of goofy frog like people with massive amounts of sharp teeth that make a silly sound whenever you piss them off.
Game of Thrones has like... a few memes. A joke here and there. It's too little.
But... alas I am not sick to death of it, I just ignore it, I do however get sick of people telling me that it's just the kind of thing I would enjoy because I play WoW and other RPG games.
No. No I don't enjoy it. WoW has a race of goofy frog like people with massive amounts of sharp teeth that make a silly sound whenever you piss them off.
Game of Thrones has like... a few memes. A joke here and there. It's too little.
I don't think that's particularly witty in the context of what I said. I don't watch it anymore but I gave the show more than a fair chance as I said in my OP. It's more that I'm sick of intelligent people talking about it to me as if it's a good show and that I should like it. I hate the show for what people think is. To me, it's just as bad as reality TV. I don't mind my friends watching stuff like that as long as they admit that it's garbage and it's a guilty pleasure (like they do with reality TV). But they won't with Game of Thrones. They talk about it like it's a good, intelligently put together show. It's not good. Please refer to OP for my reasoning.Laughing Man said:
Probably because the Kingkiller Chronicles are garbage led by the stupidest Mary Sue I've ever seen outside of internet fanfiction.Arnoxthe1 said:
Let me see if I can remember this right...
He's super handsome, in a distinct and exotic sort of way. He's literally good at everything he attempts (and is directly described as such). He's the greatest swordsman alive. He's the greatest wizard alive. A succubus/fairy/whatever taught him to be the greatest lover alive. He has a super special magic sword with a super special name. He has a super tragic backstory complete with standard issue dead family.
Fucking protagonist gold right there.
Well, God knows I do like bitching about things I like. And bitching about things I don't like.Pseudonym said:
Okay, here's an example: my sister hauled me onto the couch next to her to watch some show she'd dredged up out of Netflix called Maximum Ride. She said it was "like X-Men," and I was on board with that. It turned out to be hot garbage; the CGI was awful, every character had wings for some reason, the bad guy was an emo werewolf, and the whole thing was based off a legendarily crappy series of young adult novels.
And, y'know, I told her all of this. I'm talking about it while we're watching the show, though I bailed halfway through, and she's getting annoyed because she likes it and I'm tearing it apart and that makes her feel insecure about what she likes. And I can kinda sense that - I've done this dance with my sister and some piece of crappy television like Grimm or The Vampire Diaries a dozen times before - so I have to watch where I step.
I think that kind of situation is the tight-rope we're all walking on when we deal with some piece of trash that a friend of ours is weirdly in love with. On the one side, there's "It's all a matter of taste, so all things are equally valid." On the other, there's "Your show sucks and you suck for liking it." And somewhere in the middle, there's talking about what we do like and don't like and why we do or don't like it and what would make our tastes change.
That's the line I try to walk on. I don't want to shame people or tell them they suck because they like a show that I think is a hot turd wrapped in piss-soaked toilet paper. But I'm not going to refrain from telling them that it sucks, because that'd be dishonest. You have to separate the criticism of the show from the criticism of the person for liking the show, which is a lot harder than it sounds.
So I welcome guys like this who say that Game of Thrones sucks monkey taint. I like the show, and I'll recommend it, and if the people I recommend it to don't like it, I'll live. Not everything is for everyone. That doesn't have to mean that "good" and "bad" stories don't exist. It just means that there's a fuzzy grey area in the borderline where we disagree about whether something falls on the good or bad side.
tl;dr - I hate broccoli, my sister likes broccoli, but we both like ice cream and we both hate turds. Ice cream is good; turds are bad; broccoli is a matter of taste.
Arnoxthe1 said:
For realsies: I'm not gonna judge you for what you do or don't like - you like reading about a superhuman ginger running around sexing ladies left and right, I like reading about a superhuman albino [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Witcher] running around sexing ladies left and right - but I will say that I am not at all confused as to why Game of Thrones is more popular in comparison.