Imperials or Stormcloaks?
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Not quite.TheDarkEricDraven said:
If you read the dossier on Ulfric, you'll notice that he's an -unwilling- asset. Meaning he doesn't cooperate with the Thalmoor, they just view him as a valuable figure because he's tying up a large portion of the Empire's forces. The Stormcloaks clearly aren't a minority, also, as they hold just as much territory and have just as many in-game representatives as the Empire.
Further, the Thalmoor also don't want Ulfric to win. They are putting resources into keeping the war at a standstill, a decisive victory one way or another is viewed as counter to their goals.
Further, the Thalmoor also don't want Ulfric to win. They are putting resources into keeping the war at a standstill, a decisive victory one way or another is viewed as counter to their goals.
Granted, -I- would side with the Empire. They are mostly in the right, it just isn't as overwhelmingly obvious as you assert.
As an aside, making Tiber Septim a divine in the first place was a fairly stupid idea, and I'm glad they've challenged it in lore. This is the Emperor who had an affair with a foreign ruler, knocked her up, and -forced- her to abort so the infant wouldn't compete with his 'real' children. Fucking asshole. (Maybe I'll make a thread ranting about that)
Hammerfell managed to give the Thalmoor boot-to-ass after seceding from the Empire, so it is entirely possible that Skyrim being independent is a good idea. There is also a possibility the Hammerfell and Skyrim could unite, having a common enemy and a shared border.Lexodus said:
Ulfric is well-intentioned but shortsighted, and putting his thrall in power would give too much control to the many racists who happen to be among them.
If it comes down to religious persecution vs racial persecution, I'd side with the former. At least the religious people can worship in private. You can't hide the fact that your skin is blue, gray, furry, or scaly.
Not to mention that the Imperials aren't exactly fans of the Thalmor. It's a reluctant alliance, and the Thalmor could be fought off better united and without restructuring the politics and economics (trade would be severely hindered if the Empire was overthrown) of Skyrim (which is what would happen in a Stormcloak win)
If it comes down to religious persecution vs racial persecution, I'd side with the former. At least the religious people can worship in private. You can't hide the fact that your skin is blue, gray, furry, or scaly.
Not to mention that the Imperials aren't exactly fans of the Thalmor. It's a reluctant alliance, and the Thalmor could be fought off better united and without restructuring the politics and economics (trade would be severely hindered if the Empire was overthrown) of Skyrim (which is what would happen in a Stormcloak win)
I went with stormcloacks, because you can get a BEAR helmet... that's all the justification I need. I mena, come on, it's a Motherfucking BEAR HEAD on top of your skull.
My Imperial swordsman sided with the Empire because,
A, the stormcloaks tend to be hostile to him. (I swear if I hear "stay out of trouble Imperial" one more time)
B. He is from the Empire capital city therefore feels loyal to the Emperor.
C. Doesn't want the Empire to fall to pieces.
In reality the whole thing is Gray and Grey morality, it's all about making up your own mind.
P.S. I still kill Thalmar Justicars when I see them
A, the stormcloaks tend to be hostile to him. (I swear if I hear "stay out of trouble Imperial" one more time)
B. He is from the Empire capital city therefore feels loyal to the Emperor.
C. Doesn't want the Empire to fall to pieces.
In reality the whole thing is Gray and Grey morality, it's all about making up your own mind.
P.S. I still kill Thalmar Justicars when I see them
TheDarkEricDraven said:
Ulfric isn't actually a Thalmor agent- he's described in their dossier as an 'uncooperative asset'. He was mentally conditioned but won't really help the Thalmor. His hatred of the Empire probably stems from this.
Oh, and the High King of Skyrim wasn't actually a teenager. He was just described as a 'boy' as an insult. Look at how old his wife (the Jarl of Solitude) is.
TheDarkEricDraven said:
Yes, you meet him and he is one of the aedra. I stand by my statement that this was a stupid decision and he still isn't worthy of worship. Mehrunes Dagon, Boethia, and Namira all exist and have just as much claim to godhood as Talos, and none of them deserve to be worshipped either.
Again, I'm not asserting that lore-wise he is not an aedra. I'm asserting that he is less worthy of worship than just about every other aedra, and quite a few of the daedric princes.
Again, I'm not asserting that lore-wise he is not an aedra. I'm asserting that he is less worthy of worship than just about every other aedra, and quite a few of the daedric princes.
I support the Imperials and the Empire because I am a proud and mighty Argonian and I see no reason to support a group that seems to want some kind of racially pure Skyrim. I've seen how my people and the Dark Elves have been treated by Ulfrich and his rabble and I'll gladly fight to never allow them to have power.
The problem is that there aren't any real life gods around to form a basis of comparison.TheDarkEricDraven said:
Neither side has the moral high ground, but the empire is certainly the lesser of two evils. The White-Gold Concordat means nothing as far as I'm concerned. Both the empire and Aldmeri dominion know that hostilities will break out again and are just using this peace to build up their forces. When that war does come, it would be better for the Human races to be fully united against the threat the dominion poses to the them. If the empire stays united time doesn't have to be wasted signing treaties and forming alliances.
As for the storm cloaks, I understand the cause that the ordinary soldiers are fighting for, even though I think it will ultimately harm them. However, I can't support Ulfric. Not only because he is using the war to further is own agenda and increase his influence, but because he is directly responsible for Alduin's return. In killing Torygg and starting the war, Ulfric fulfilled an elder scroll's prophecy concerning the return of the dragons. Ulfric is risking the destruction of the entire world over petty religious and political squabbles. Elisif herself says that Torygg probably would have joined with ulfric if he had just asked. instead, Ulfric decided to be an ass and almost doomed everyone else in the process. That is not the sort of person who should be anywhere near the throne.
As for the storm cloaks, I understand the cause that the ordinary soldiers are fighting for, even though I think it will ultimately harm them. However, I can't support Ulfric. Not only because he is using the war to further is own agenda and increase his influence, but because he is directly responsible for Alduin's return. In killing Torygg and starting the war, Ulfric fulfilled an elder scroll's prophecy concerning the return of the dragons. Ulfric is risking the destruction of the entire world over petty religious and political squabbles. Elisif herself says that Torygg probably would have joined with ulfric if he had just asked. instead, Ulfric decided to be an ass and almost doomed everyone else in the process. That is not the sort of person who should be anywhere near the throne.
I don't see how Ulfric could know of the prophesy in the first place.Bromion said:
And I'm pretty sure if the Elder Scrolls say something is going to happen, it will happen, There would have been no alternative with Ulfric doing nothing.
Also, I don't see how "The Empire is using this peace to rebuild" would make any sense since you know, the Thalmor will also rebuild and they have a head start. In other words, they'd get their asses kicked yet again.
That's not how the elder scrolls work. Each scroll can show a myriad of different futures depending on who is looking at it since the future isn't set in stone. it's only after a prophecy is fulfilled that it becomes fixed on the scroll.Whether Ulfric knew about the prophecy or not is immaterial. He likely knew that Torygg could be turned if he just asked, but he chose to kill him instead.Jynthor said:
That's precisely what I just said. That's why the peace treaty doesn't mean anything. Besides, who says anything about the Empire being weak against the Dominion? The only advantage that the Elves had was surprise and even with that advantage they failed to capture the emperor or his forces, who proceeded to utterly destroy the aldmeri forces within Cyrodiil. The only reason the treaty was signed in the first place was because the emperor knew that continuing the war wasn't feasible at that point. We can logically expect that the Legion won't allow themselves to be caught off guard like that again. an alert and united Empire stands a much greater chance against the elves, and we know from Ulfric's dossier in the Thalmor embassy that this is exactly what the Dominion does not want to happen.
Even if Ulfric sided with the High King there would still be civil war. There would be plenty of Jarls bribed by the Empire. This isn't Stormcloaks vs Torygg supporters, this is a war between the Empire and Stormcloaks.
At any rate I stand corrected on how the Elder scrolls work.
I read your post a bit wrong but that was more meant in general anyway. Tons of people claim that the Empire is rebuilding but always ignore the fact that the Thalmor are doing the very same thing.
As for the advantage the Elves have. the Aldmeri lands remain untouched while most of the Empire was burned down.
In whatever way you look at it, the Thalmor would also be rebuilding, just like the Empire, but the Thalmor don't have to rebuild their lands because the Empire was too weak to invade, and still is. Thus they have a head start and would most likely steamroll the Empire next time.
But in the end I doubt both the Stormcloaks and Empire could defeat the Aldmeri dominion. They need an Alliance with Hammerfell and possibly Black March. But good luck with that.