In Another Castle: Unabashed Creativity

[Orcus The Ultimate]

Since i played Omikron:The Nomad Soul, i knew in that moment, that some devs wouldn't be sellouts, and would continue to create and innovate great games.

Well, you're right about the overall statement you've made, we need to incentive those who are worthy of making these kinds of games, and boycott (aka not buying frenetically) brainless game devs who make bland games that people buy just because it's "Hype" "a la mode" and 'cause "everybody buys it" (i'm not naming any but you know which ones i point).

here's a vid about omikron:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HDHJoaEC-I&feature=related

 

[SavingPrincess]

Tim Schafer: arty, sometimes pretentious games

That made me laugh as then you went and quoted Monkey Island as one of the games you would still go back and play. I've never viewed Schafer as pretentious, as his games are usually balls out hilarious in their absurdity (Grim Fandango, Full Throttle, Monkey Island, Maniac Mansion, Psychonauts, et. al.).

Anyway, to the rest of your post:

I'm confused. First off, I think Mirror's Edge was probably one of the single most creative ideas to hit gaming in the last few years and I'll defend that to my dying breath, so to cite it in your list of supposed rip-off's makes me turn my head sideways like a puppy you just gave a command to in a language he wasn't trained in.

Secondly, I can't really see which side of the fence you are leaning toward. You cite incredibly original titles (i.e. Mass Effect, Mario) that have since established themselves as franchises as arguments for doing something "tried-and-true," when they in and of themselves were risks that went well.

Fourthly (or thirdly for those paying attention), your views on some of the more (in my opinion) creative sides of gaming would contradict your love for what they have brought to the table.

I'm just confused as all hell. Forgive me.

That being said... go play Mario 64.

 

[SavingPrincess]

YOU have to realize that there isn't one person who represents us gamers. Gamers are different people, thus they want to play different things. Some people want creativity in their games, some people as foolish as it is, don't want to shy away to unfamiliar territory. Some want a combination of both.

-=I=- (my attempt at retorting to your capitalized YOU, as you can't really capitalize "I" for effect, *sadface*) do realize that I don't represent all gamer-kind. The same divide exists in film. There are people who get excited when Daniel Day Lewis comes out of retirement, then there are people who can't wait for Transformers 6: Dawn of the MicroMachines. The problem with the gaming industry is exactly what you highlighted and exactly the problem I'm talking about:

Gamers are different people

Which is exactly how it should be; but gaming has not reached the maturity level of film (yet). Regardless of a developers previous success, if they fail, they lose credibility (with few exceptions). Do you really think Peter Molyneux would get the immense amount of funding he gets now if Fable were considered a flop along the size of Beyond Good & Evil? Spielberg, Cameron, Scorsese, Burton... they can make several flops, but they will always receive adequate resources for their next project because the film industry recognizes talent in a way that game publishers have yet to.

I am pleading a case I suppose for the people who know that The Departed was a remake of a film from Hong Kong called Mou Gaan Dou (a.k.a. Internal Affairs). Right now our voice is the smallest, our dollars are the least important, and there are several amazing things out there NOT getting made in favor of Halo QWERTY: Cortana's Typing Adventure 2. There ARE all types of gamers, but unlike film, the market may move (read: is moving) in a direction that might silence our voice, rob us of OUR epic journies, and leave us to our XBLA-Steam-Indie low-budget world.

 

[Hiphophippo]

Tim Schafer: arty, sometimes pretentious games
Fahrenheit: Quicktime-Event
Hideo Kojima: Metal Gear, haven't played his games much so dunno
Halo 3: fanboys, bro gamers
Little Big Planet: Modding, custom levels, coop fun, sackboy
Shadow of the Colossus: kill giant things in an awesome way
Eternal Darkness: what?
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2: massively overhyped, massively mediocre
Hironobu Sakaguchi: who?
Tetris: one of the first game concepts ever, still fun to play in its many variations
Will Wright: Sim City, Sim Tower, Sim Park, Sims... Spore sucked
God of War: Diablo 2
Heavy Rain: Quicktime-Event with even less gameplay elements, not really a game anymore

I certainly don't agree with most of your assessments, and that's fine, but the God of War one left me scratching my head.

What?

 

[SavingPrincess]

Tim Schafer: arty, sometimes pretentious games
Fahrenheit: Quicktime-Event
Hideo Kojima: Metal Gear, haven't played his games much so dunno
Halo 3: fanboys, bro gamers
Little Big Planet: Modding, custom levels, coop fun, sackboy
Shadow of the Colossus: kill giant things in an awesome way
Eternal Darkness: what?
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2: massively overhyped, massively mediocre
Hironobu Sakaguchi: who?
Tetris: one of the first game concepts ever, still fun to play in its many variations
Will Wright: Sim City, Sim Tower, Sim Park, Sims... Spore sucked
God of War: Diablo 2
Heavy Rain: Quicktime-Event with even less gameplay elements, not really a game anymore

I certainly don't agree with most of your assessments, and that's fine, but the God of War one left me scratching my head.

What?

Mebbe the Barbarian from D2 looking like Kratos? I don't know...

I still say the Schafer one confused me more given the rest of the post.

 

[shadow skill]

I find this thread ironic considering that you mistakenly attribute genre creation to DMC in your other thread. You then attempt to say that the developers of games that happen to be in the same genre as DMC are copying off of it. In spite of the fact that mechanically all of the games you initially brought up play so differently from each other that except for Dante's Inferno you cannot really group these games together outside of their already accepted genre. You can't even see the uniqueness of the top tier games in the brawler (Hack n slash or beat em up if you prefer.) genre. People have to first stop examining games in this sort of shallow way before they can convincingly demand creativity from anyone.

@Hiphophippo Dexter may be thinking of Diablo in reference to God of War because it was originally games like Diablo that were categorized as Hack n slash games (Because of the use of weapons and inventory systems etc.) later this was extended into beat-em ups (Brawlers.), hence the modern usage of the term hack n slash to describe what is essentially a brawler which focuses on medium range weapons with sharp edges.

 

[SimuLord]

If you read the comments to that Escapist Heavy Rain article you already know where I stand on this, but I'll say it again:

GAMES ARE NOT ART. FULL STOP.

I don't want to see creative art direction in my games. I want tried-and-tested formula gaming where the settings are shifted and existing gameplay mechanics are taken in interesting directions relative to their series.

I have a limited amount of money available to spend on games, and if something is going to say "hey, here's something new", it's going to have to go out of its way to convince me it's something I want.

My most anticipated games of the year (counting Napoleon: Total War, which I've already purchased) are all sequels or expansion packs. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and stuff like another Total War game, Civilization 5, whatever EA has to give my Sims in their happy neighborhood this year, some sports games for when my girlfriend moves in with me and brings her 360 with her, Fallout: New Vegas, Mount&Blade Warband...you can begin to see where I just don't have room for "something new".

I am sick and fucking tired of being berated by arthouse hipster assholes who think I'm somehow killing gaming because I think games are supposed to be fun.

 

[shadow skill]

If you read the comments to that Escapist Heavy Rain article you already know where I stand on this, but I'll say it again:

GAMES ARE NOT ART. FULL STOP.

I don't want to see creative art direction in my games. I want tried-and-tested formula gaming where the settings are shifted and existing gameplay mechanics are taken in interesting directions relative to their series.

I have a limited amount of money available to spend on games, and if something is going to say "hey, here's something new", it's going to have to go out of its way to convince me it's something I want.

My most anticipated games of the year (counting Napoleon: Total War, which I've already purchased) are all sequels or expansion packs. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and stuff like another Total War game, Civilization 5, whatever EA has to give my Sims in their happy neighborhood this year, some sports games for when my girlfriend moves in with me and brings her 360 with her, Fallout: New Vegas, Mount&Blade Warband...you can begin to see where I just don't have room for "something new".

I am sick and fucking tired of being berated by arthouse hipster assholes who think I'm somehow killing gaming because I think games are supposed to be fun.

Software engineering of all kinds is both an art and a science. Manipulating human behavior is what you are doing when you create button assignments in any context. Getting people to do what you want them to do without even necessarily having them be aware of it is very much an art.

I don't want to see creative art direction in my games. I want tried-and-tested formula gaming where the settings are shifted and existing gameplay mechanics are taken in interesting directions relative to their series.

How can you say that you don't want creative art direction and then say that you want the gameplay to be taken in interesting directions when the art direction is very closely linked to the gameplay? God of War is what it is because of the art direction and how the mechanics work with the visuals. The tight controls make ripping off the heads of your foes awesome. There are of course other examples but I will stop here.

 

[SavingPrincess]

I find this thread ironic considering that you mistakenly attribute genre creation to DMC in your other thread. You then attempt to say that the developers of games that happen to be in the same genre as DMC are copying off of it. In spite of the fact that mechanically all of the games you initially brought up play so differently from each other that except for Dante's Inferno you cannot really group these games together outside of their already accepted genre.

Yeah I'm not even going to get into this here, I'll keep it in that other obnoxious "humanity is doomed" thread. All I will say is if you think that Devil May Cry and God of War are THAT mechanically different, then you have a much more finely-tuned appreciation for said differences than I do... that being said; you're still wrong, even David Jaffe said so and he made the damn game.

Anyway, here's an interesting one:

From:

GAMES ARE NOT ART. FULL STOP.

I don't want to see creative art direction in my games. I want tried-and-tested formula gaming where the settings are shifted and existing gameplay mechanics are taken in interesting directions relative to their series.

To:

My most anticipated games of the year (paraphrase) were all based on wildly radical, never-before-tested gaming mechanics when their series were originally created (end paraphrase).

I am sick and fucking tired of being berated by arthouse hipster assholes who think I'm somehow killing gaming because I think games are supposed to be fun.

I have never seen someone in my entire life so deftly and vehemently defeat their own argument in such record time. Bravo sir... bravo.

The Total War series was extremely innovative when it was created. Everything else you mentioned (save for maybe the sports games), are all rooted in do-or-die titles that developers had trouble even getting made. Which is exactly my argument, who are you, or anyone to rob the future generation from their "tried and true" formulaic gaming? Should they only be allowed Game You Mentioned 23: A Return to Form or do they too deserve the risks that people like Sid Meier and Will Wright took back in their days?

Games are not art, to you... remember that. Would I be generalizing too much to wager you don't watch films with subtitles, believe that the Wii and Nintendo DS should have never been created, and think that your favorite titles should be the ones winning "Game of the Year"?

 

[Hiphophippo]

Tim Schafer: arty, sometimes pretentious games
Fahrenheit: Quicktime-Event
Hideo Kojima: Metal Gear, haven't played his games much so dunno
Halo 3: fanboys, bro gamers
Little Big Planet: Modding, custom levels, coop fun, sackboy
Shadow of the Colossus: kill giant things in an awesome way
Eternal Darkness: what?
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2: massively overhyped, massively mediocre
Hironobu Sakaguchi: who?
Tetris: one of the first game concepts ever, still fun to play in its many variations
Will Wright: Sim City, Sim Tower, Sim Park, Sims... Spore sucked
God of War: Diablo 2
Heavy Rain: Quicktime-Event with even less gameplay elements, not really a game anymore

I certainly don't agree with most of your assessments, and that's fine, but the God of War one left me scratching my head.

What?

Mebbe the Barbarian from D2 looking like Kratos? I don't know...

I still say the Schafer one confused me more given the rest of the post.

It's certainly eyebrow turning. I don't think any of his stuff comes across as pretentious, but I do think he's one of the few "name" game designers out there who reliably produces interesting, creative projects. Not always innovative, and that's ok, but always charming. It always stands out from the crowd.

 

[Hiphophippo]

I've decided I want to play too!

Tim Schafer - One of the last bastions of truly creative game design.
Indigo Prophecy (Fahrenheit) - Attempted to do something different and mostly succeeded. Mostly.
Hideo Kojima - Very good at telling a pretty bad and wildly nonsensical story. It's gripped me since the days of NES despite how I feel about it.
Halo 3 It's good. It's not genre defining, but it's good. A pretty perfect example of an amazing score making an average game notably better.
Little Big PlanetUser created content at it's finest. It's adorable. I smiled the entire time I played it.
Shadow of the Colossus It succeeds because it works on multiple levels. I enjoyed it because of it's quiet intensity and 4th wall breaking, reflective story. But I understand people enjoying because it's awesome to kill huge things.
Eternal Darkness - I wasn't a fan. I thought the 4th wall scare factor was super awesome but also immersion breaking at the same time. Loved the nod to lovecraft though.
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 - I don't care what anyone says, it didn't make a whole lot of sense, but the Michael Bay approach to story telling actually WORKS in video games. Did not try multiplayer.
Hironobu Sakaguchi - He's a master of his craft, but I think I've outgrown his craft.
Tetris - A definitive example of gameplay over story. One is a bonus, and one is needed.
Will Wright - Barely a game designer. More a mad scientist with game buyers his guinee pigs. Which is pretty awesome.
God of War - Diablo 2 LOLWAT. Style over substance. I loathe the genre as a general rule of thumb but this entry in it is so loaded with style I've enjoyed every entry.
Heavy Rain - Redefines what a game can be. Isn't always successful but should be lauded for making such risky decisions and trying something different. I personally love it but respect it's not for everyone.

 

[Escapefromwhatever]

You know, as much as I love Zelda, Twilight Princess would be a pretty good game to end the series on. Nice observations.

 

[The Great Zegrool]

I love innovation, but innovation isn't the end all be all. Games are good even if they are unoriginal, if they have it extremely polished and(most of all) fun.

Actually, I'll use one of your examples: Heavy Rain.

To me it looks like a movie that you press buttons to continue, and while I can certainly say I've never seen that before, it doesn't look fun. Also uncanny valley.

But anyways, how much I enjoy the game will always be ranked higher than how innovative it is.

I love Borderlands, even though it's essentially Diablo with guns.
I also love Portal, but that was because of the immense amount of polish put into the game, not exclusively because of the portal mechanic.

 

[shadow skill]

I find this thread ironic considering that you mistakenly attribute genre creation to DMC in your other thread. You then attempt to say that the developers of games that happen to be in the same genre as DMC are copying off of it. In spite of the fact that mechanically all of the games you initially brought up play so differently from each other that except for Dante's Inferno you cannot really group these games together outside of their already accepted genre.

Yeah I'm not even going to get into this here, I'll keep it in that other obnoxious "humanity is doomed" thread. All I will say is if you think that Devil May Cry and God of War are THAT mechanically different, then you have a much more finely-tuned appreciation for said differences than I do... that being said; you're still wrong, even David Jaffe said so and he made the damn game.

Anyway, here's an interesting one:

From:

GAMES ARE NOT ART. FULL STOP.

I don't want to see creative art direction in my games. I want tried-and-tested formula gaming where the settings are shifted and existing gameplay mechanics are taken in interesting directions relative to their series.

To:

My most anticipated games of the year (paraphrase) were all based on wildly radical, never-before-tested gaming mechanics when their series were originally created (end paraphrase).

I am sick and fucking tired of being berated by arthouse hipster assholes who think I'm somehow killing gaming because I think games are supposed to be fun.

I have never seen someone in my entire life so deftly and vehemently defeat their own argument in such record time. Bravo sir... bravo.

The Total War series was extremely innovative when it was created. Everything else you mentioned (save for maybe the sports games), are all rooted in do-or-die titles that developers had trouble even getting made. Which is exactly my argument, who are you, or anyone to rob the future generation from their "tried and true" formulaic gaming? Should they only be allowed Game You Mentioned 23: A Return to Form or do they too deserve the risks that people like Sid Meier and Will Wright took back in their days?

Games are not art, to you... remember that. Would I be generalizing too much to wager you don't watch films with subtitles, believe that the Wii and Nintendo DS should have never been created, and think that your favorite titles should be the ones winning "Game of the Year"?

http://www.gametrailers.com/video/episode-94-invisible-walls/61858#_text

Take a look at the video at about 16:38 I have a hard time believing that he was not joking.

 

[shadow skill]

Well damn they sure do look alike.

 

[SavingPrincess]

I've decided I want to play too!

Tim Schafer - One of the last bastions of truly creative game design.
Indigo Prophecy (Fahrenheit) - Attempted to do something different and mostly succeeded. Mostly.
Hideo Kojima - Very good at telling a pretty bad and wildly nonsensical story. It's gripped me since the days of NES despite how I feel about it.
Halo 3 It's good. It's not genre defining, but it's good. A pretty perfect example of an amazing score making an average game notably better.
Little Big PlanetUser created content at it's finest. It's adorable. I smiled the entire time I played it.
Shadow of the Colossus It succeeds because it works on multiple levels. I enjoyed it because of it's quiet intensity and 4th wall breaking, reflective story. But I understand people enjoying because it's awesome to kill huge things.
Eternal Darkness - I wasn't a fan. I thought the 4th wall scare factor was super awesome but also immersion breaking at the same time. Loved the nod to lovecraft though.
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 - I don't care what anyone says, it didn't make a whole lot of sense, but the Michael Bay approach to story telling actually WORKS in video games. Did not try multiplayer.
Hironobu Sakaguchi - He's a master of his craft, but I think I've outgrown his craft.
Tetris - A definitive example of gameplay over story. One is a bonus, and one is needed.
Will Wright - Barely a game designer. More a mad scientist with game buyers his guinee pigs. Which is pretty awesome.
God of War - Diablo 2 LOLWAT. Style over substance. I loathe the genre as a general rule of thumb but this entry in it is so loaded with style I've enjoyed every entry.
Heavy Rain - Redefines what a game can be. Isn't always successful but should be lauded for making such risky decisions and trying something different. I personally love it but respect it's not for everyone.

I threw Halo, Call of Duty and God of War in that list as examples I think of non-creative, "me too" game design, but good show for defending them!

That being said, I agree with most of what you put here. I wouldn't call Schafer as skilled of a game designer as much as a skilled world-designer. Few can create more odd worlds that actually work in practice.

 

[Hiphophippo]

That being said, I agree with most of what you put here. I wouldn't call Schafer as skilled of a game designer as much as a skilled world-designer. Few can create more odd worlds that actually work in practice.

The Milkman's level in Psychonauts is probably the best level in any game ever. Actually, the same could be said about nearly every level from that game.

 

[SavingPrincess]

Take a look at the video at about 16:38 I have a hard time believing that he was not joking.

That's because... he... wasn't? I mean, Jaffe's a pretty self-aware dude; he pretty much knows he ripped off Devil May Cry in a paint-by-numbers style and changed things to suit his taste. Do you really think he cares if he ripped them off or not? Do you have any clue how much money he made by sucking the life from Dante and injecting it into Kratos? I wouldn't care... I'd be rich; but yeah, Jaffe knows what he did... hell even CAPCOM published his game in Japan. If you don't think he and Hideki Kamiya sat down over a drink and talked about it you're kidding yourself; I'd wager that Kamiya even gave him pointers.

Bah, now you have me discussing it again.

God of War ripped the pants off Devil May Cry... there done... well that didn't sound right but you get it.

Any other discussion or points you want to bring up, do it in the other thread you're referring to. =)

 

[Hiphophippo]

Every time I see God of War it just reminds me of a Barbarian in Diablo 2... aside of the Boss fights and finishing moves it is a perfect match considering the artwork, gameplay and moves.

Gamewise, they're night and day, but I'll be damned you're right. They could be brothers.

 

[Anticitizen_Two]

Very, very good points. Everyone complains about Miyamoto only releasing Mario and Zelda games (which is not entirely true) but you know that if he were to stop making them everyone would throw a fit, and for good reason: they're two of the greatest series of all time.