In Defense of "Killer is Dead". ..

[Adam Lester]

First, let me start off by saying my bias is going to show because I am highly supportive of Suda 51 and Grasshopper Studios. Their games have never been ground breaking, but by the same respect I enjoy the fact that they never seem to pander to any one demographic or just follow a formula (past weirdness + middle of the road gameplay= PROFIT) like AAA games and I would love to see more from them.

Killer is Dead has been catching a lot of flack recently, and I mean a lot. I've seen more than one review tearing the game to shreds because they can't get past how uncomfortable the gigolo missions are so they just call it a failure and move on. So yeah...that. I like how weird and uncomfortable they are, to a certain degree I'd like to think that they're supposed to be. When Suda described K.I.D. to people, he said it was "The darker side of James Bond".

And the gigolo missions, at least to me seem to come off as a more than cynical commentary on how the whole James Bond idea of picking up gaggles of beautiful women. Mondo gets the girls by just being Mondo, who doesn't even seem like he has the ability to be romantically invested. For him, it's just another check mark on the "to do" list, he doesn't even seem to be enjoying himself.
He just sits there, straight faced not saying a word and treating a date with the enthusiasm of a man who has to get out of bed and drive down to the local pub to pick up a drunk friend at 3am. Every time I begin a gigolo mission, I always have this scene in my head where Mondo sighs heavily, loads up a few gift items and trudges off to his date with his head hung. It's hard for me to consider Mondo a misogynist because he never even shows any signs of a sex drive. It's almost like he's an asexual who just happens to lead a sexual life.

I wonder if the repetitive, robotic way the women he's dating are really acting like that or if that's how he sees them. And maybe the awkward, uncomfortable and repetitive feeling the player gets from those missions is something the player is supposed to feel.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

Just because something is working exactly the way it's supposed to doesn't automatically make it good, or put it above criticism.

The fact of the matter is, if those gigolo missions are putting people off from playing the game, people who would have otherwise loved it, then that feature has failed. This is especially true if that feature isn't even instrumental to the game or the story. If Suda 51 wanted to make a cynical commentary on the whole "James Bond" way of picking up women for one night stands there are other ways to do it that aren't nearly as creepy, and that don't waste the players' time doing what they really don't want to do.

 

[EHKOS]

Well I haven't seen too much of it besides what TBF put up last night, but it is starting to seem strange just for stranges sake. Strange is one of those things you cannot force. Also the blatant rip-off of Alice in Wonderland. It's not like Madness Returns, because that was a vivid re-imagining.

Plunging someone into a world that seems rich but so alien and unfamiliar just makes them frustrated, and I don't feel like K.I.D. is going to lay out how everything works.

I'm just going to look at it like Deadpool, a fun hack-n-slash that will never be anything more.

 

[chikusho]

Just because something is working exactly the way it's supposed to doesn't automatically make it good, or put it above criticism.

The fact of the matter is, if those gigolo missions are putting people off from playing the game, people who would have otherwise loved it, then that feature has failed. This is especially true if that feature isn't even instrumental to the game or the story. If Suda 51 wanted to make a cynical commentary on the whole "James Bond" way of picking up women for one night stands there are other ways to do it that aren't nearly as creepy, and that don't waste the players' time doing what they really don't want to do.

If the point of something is to make people uncomfortable, and that thing actually does people uncomfortable, it's very good at what it's intended to do.
It is not, however, necessarily good at something it is not intended to do.

If a feature is designed to be off-putting, and it succeeds in being off-putting, it is not a failed feature.

People need to start moving away from the idea that games have to be "fun" in order to be good; or even successful in what they are trying to achieve.

Note: Have not played Killer is Dead, and probably never will. Just starting the argument where it starts.

 

[BrotherRool]

There is a lot more to criticism and parody though than just deliberately making something awful. When 'comedic' games make you backtrack everywhere because backtracking is a bad thing videogames do, that doesn't make it funny.

In the same way Spec Ops doesn't just recreate an awful modern military shooter, it starts like that and then leads somewhere to show you how awful it is.

In Katawa Shoujo they don't just make you

Spoiler

'parent' Hanako with no deeper connection than pity

they lead it to a place where everything goes wrong and you realise the error of what you've been doing.

If all they're doing to parody James Bond is making the guy even more lecherous and horrible to women, that's not enough. The story has to arc, it has to show you that it's self aware and then make a commentary on it and do something different. Otherwise all it's saying is 'Look this is a horrible thing and now we've recreated it'


If you're unable to tell your critique apart from something that would fit in Duke Nukem Forever then you haven't done anything good

 

[COMaestro]

Just because something is working exactly the way it's supposed to doesn't automatically make it good, or put it above criticism.

The fact of the matter is, if those gigolo missions are putting people off from playing the game, people who would have otherwise loved it, then that feature has failed. This is especially true if that feature isn't even instrumental to the game or the story. If Suda 51 wanted to make a cynical commentary on the whole "James Bond" way of picking up women for one night stands there are other ways to do it that aren't nearly as creepy, and that don't waste the players' time doing what they really don't want to do.

If the point of something is to make people uncomfortable, and that thing actually does people uncomfortable, it's very good at what it's intended to do.
It is not, however, necessarily good at something it is not intended to do.

If a feature is designed to be off-putting, and it succeeds in being off-putting, it is not a failed feature.

People need to start moving away from the idea that games have to be "fun" in order to be good; or even successful in what they are trying to achieve.

Note: Have not played Killer is Dead, and probably never will. Just starting the argument where it starts.

A feature operating as designed is not a failed feature, this is true. However, having a feature that is off-putting in a game that is likely meant to be played for entertainment or fun can result in a failed game. Alternately, if there is some kind of commentary on society or a genre that they are trying to make with the game, they need to make sure the whole game represents it, not just one small part.

I'm going to point at Spec Ops: The Line for a game that did this right. What looked like another generic brown and gray shooter became so much more due to the story involved, and what was essentially commentary and judgement of the person playing the game. Some portions of the game were not "fun" but I was definitely entertained and engrossed during the whole game, even on repeated replays.

It all depends on intent in this case, whether the gigolo missions were meant to be off-putting or not. Still, if most people are finding that part of the game unenjoyable to the point they no longer want to play the game, then the game is a failure, no matter what the intent behind the gigolo missions was (unless they WANTED people to stop playing the game).

 

[wakeup]

the james bond defense is rubbish, with him its always a class act. bond is a gentleman and the women in bond films aren't walking breasts. this game is just pandering to the straight male audience in a rather immature, offensive way. as a gay male i feel very awkward and insulted by this sort of stuff and i hear you have to do these missions to get the upgrades. also i think most of the criticisms exist because the game is cack.

 

[BrotherRool]

also i think most of the criticisms exist because the game is cack.

Actually this is a pretty good point, I heard the collision detection is so bad it's hard to even walk up steps. If the game was doing more to draw people in then they'd probably be more likely to overlook some of the morally questionable stuff

 

[Benpasko]

It's a Suda 51 game, if people think it's weird that's fine. He makes weird stuff, and part of making weird stuff is it being, well, weird. Not everyone will like it, not everyone's supposed to like it.

 

[Kyber]

What I have gathered from watching two parts of the TBF playtrough, it seems pretty hype. Don't really know about the story yet, but the combat looks fluid, fun and just generally speaking, good.

 

[Aiddon_v1legacy]

that is the thing about Bond; his constant conquests can be interpreted as sexist and demeaning towards women (see also: James T. Kirk). Furthermore, it's Suda, he REVELS in doing stuff like this to the player.

 

[WanderingFool]

that is the thing about Bond; his constant conquests can be interpreted as sexist and demeaning towards women (see also: James T. Kirk). Furthermore, it's Suda, he REVELS in doing stuff like this to the player.

This is true... It should be much more obvious in the later Bond films where Bond spends the night with the throw-away woman, than she winds up dead the next day and we move on.

 

[Hazy]

Japan is going to save the videogame industry. [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtFN8G0NN4M] How can one country be so based when it comes to vidya?

[small]Here's to looking at you, guys.[/small]​

 

[Riotguards]

in my humblest opinion a game's number one priority is to sell as many copies, not every dev says this but lets be honest, you wouldn't be getting any more updates to minecraft if notch only sold 300 or so copies

this feature regardless of being successful only serves to make people unease and possibly put off the product then it is a bad design

everything in a game represents the final product, (bioshock infinite spoiler)

Spoiler

if bioshock infinite had a scene were you kissed (romantically) Elizabeth and then proceed to having sex with her, even though it later turns out she's your daughter then it doesn't exactly bold well for your the public image of the game

the fact that this is a feature in a game only serves to further boost its public image, if reviewers are disgusted at the fact that the game makes women look like sex dolls then its little wonder that its recieved such negative scores


personally i'm not interested in the game anyway but having looked at it briefly i'd be embarrassed enough to turn the game off had i reached the missions

 

[Hazy]

the fact that this is a feature in a game only serves to further boost its public image, if reviewers are disgusted at the fact that the game makes women look like sex dolls then its little wonder that its recieved such negative scores


personally i'm not interested in the game anyway but having looked at it briefly i'd be embarrassed enough to turn the game off had i reached the missions

Man gets portrayed as a strong but perverted sexual deviant and nobody bats an eye.

Woman gets portrayed as a gorgeous, voluptuous bombshell and everybody loses their minds.

 

[Adam Lester]

It's a double edged sword when it comes to recognizing these dilemmas that we run into when tackling the whole sexism thing. It's good that we're bringing it to light, because if it's addressed correctly we could really open up the floodgates and get some variety going with games when it comes to characters and issues in the game.

But so far, it's been nothing but squealing and lead to SJW monsters like Sarkeesean, the Dumblr crowd and Kotaku (and possibly Moviebob these days) who just sniff around looking to prove how NOTTHESEXIST they are by bitching and pretending to be appalled by anything and everything that has a woman in it...which in my opinion, oozes with sexism. It's like trying to squash out racism in the US media by getting rid of all of the non-white actors so you don't have to worry about portraying any minorities in a negative light.

Treating groups based on their gender, sexuality or race as sacred cows that are to be locked in a neat little box of political correctness or handling them with kid gloves is just another form of discrimination. Bayonetta's supposedly misogynistic, even though it provides the player with a confident, sex-positive lead role. The new Lara Croft takes way too many spills and gets knocked around and it's animosity.

But back to the original subject, in short. This is what I have to say. Are the gigolo missions creepy and uncomfortable? Hell yes (but they were worth it for the weapons). Do they say something about society, or give some harsh commentary on the whole James Bond motif? Maybe. Do I think Suda 51 meant anything malicious through it? Not at all. He just kind of shrugged during interviews and wondered what the big deal was. He even said that he was hoping female gamers would get a kick out of how corny they were.

Oh yeah, and he was one of the few game developers to have a female antagonist in "Black Knight Sword". Which if you think of it, is a pretty positive move. You never see a woman as an antagonist, she's always either the love interest of the damsel in distress and to have a female villain going up against the hero to me is more equality than you can shake a copy of any Metroid game that's not Prime at.