In Regards to Wild West

[Fiz_The_Toaster]

This isn't a power trip, this isn't an effort to control the site, nor is it some grand conspiracy to meddle in the affairs of user just for giggles or whatever. And, again, whether or not you choose to believe myself or any other mod is really your choice to make.

So, it's not a power trip despite the fact:
A. It's not what the community voted for.
B. It's not what the original staff of the site implemented.
C. It's doesn't appear to have any oversight from anyone above the mod team and Basement.
D. Was against things which were said in the past about WW by the current mod team and staff.

It's been pretty open that we're it and that we answer to the CM, and we've very much aware of that fact. As a matter of fact, Defy could just decide to shut this place down without warning and there isn't anything we can do about it.

As I have stated multiple times, due to what was going on in WW we revisited the issue and that was what we decided. You can dislike it all you like, but those are the facts.

Snipp'ed for length

Just because it's a space with no rules doesn't mean people can go in there and attack each other. It was originally intended for people to post random things that would otherwise get them modded for making topic-less threads. Those threads have gone down and the more vitriolic ones have gone up.

Sure, I've never liked WW, but my opinion doesn't matter nor did it influence anything since everyone in the mod team knew where I stood. But if people wanted a place to do whatever, then fine. Except, over time, it wasn't and we as a team decided to close it off for posting.

You can always take it up with the CM if you would like to voice your displeasure.

 

[Sassafrass]

I've still got the list of people who voted for or against the Wild West.

I have to ask.
Fucking why?

 

[Ugicywapih]

Just because it's a space with no rules doesn't mean people can go in there and attack each other.

Actually, it kind of does, that's the thing about there being no rules - untethered by mores of society, anyone is free to make an arse of themselves.

It was originally intended for people to post random things that would otherwise get them modded for making topic-less threads. Those threads have gone down and the more vitriolic ones have gone up.

That's an idea I fully support. And while I agree toxic, aggressive threads (mostly callouts) have been cropping up more often than back when WW was still young, the intended use of WW never stopped. So, why not give it an another chance as a low-moderation board with the former mini-CoC expanded with, for example, a rule against singling out any particular user through either their nickname or a description precise enough to individualize them in topics oriented, in significant part, towards personal assault (or just ban bullying if you want to, though that could lead to some worries among the userbase as it's broad and thus open to interpretation). It wouldn't be quite as rule-free as before, but admittedly, that has proven to be an issue, however it still seems to have some merit as there still seems to be room for sensible discussion (or just plain silly fun) that may well not have originated on the regular boards due to them being perceived as bound by excessively strict rules (regardless of how accurate that perception is), not to mention there's obviously some backlash about this whole thing, so maybe instead of killing Wild West it could be just sorta tamed a bit?

 

[chocolate pickles]

StatusNil getting a warning for stating his opinion in a civil manner demonstrates just what is wrong with the site and it's moderation.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Funny how saying what you feel without fear of reprisal is now a "4chan" thing, as if 4chan invented it.

As one of WW's biggest supporters, I don't even like 4chan. The forced anonymity and complete lack of a post archive is garbage. There's also issues with the rules.

I also find it funny how no one, mod or member, has answered my arguments and have decided they just wanna talk about things that don't actually mean anything.

 

[The Lunatic]

It's been pretty open that we're it and that we answer to the CM, and we've very much aware of that fact. As a matter of fact, Defy could just decide to shut this place down without warning and there isn't anything we can do about it.

As I have stated multiple times, due to what was going on in WW we revisited the issue and that was what we decided. You can dislike it all you like, but those are the facts.

Very well, but, you don't get the right to call it "Not a powertrip" when you response to the fact you've broken what the users voted on, and what was previous promised by the current staff is "Too bad if you don't like it".

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Funny how saying what you feel without fear of reprisal is now a "4chan" thing, as if 4chan invented it.

As one of WW's biggest supporters, I don't even like 4chan. The forced anonymity and complete lack of a post archive is garbage. There's also issues with the rules.

I also find it funny how no one, mod or member, has answered my arguments and have decided they just wanna talk about things that don't actually mean anything.

Saying how you feel is different than threats and harassment.
"I like pie" is not the same as "I'll fucking kill anyone who doesn't like pie!" or "I hate MLP" is different that "Fucking pony fag cucks, kill yourself!"
They are not the same.

The 'free speech' forum just turned into a bunch of assholes threatening and harassing each other, it wasn't worth keeping.
And no one is saying you aren't free to say whatever you want. You fully 100%, just has to be within the guidelines of the website, or not. If not, face the consequences, and if you can't deal with said consequences then maybe this isn't the website to post on.
No one has taken away your freedom to say whatever you like, it just has consequences like it does in every aspect of real life.

 

[Trunkage]

StatusNil getting a warning for stating his opinion in a civil manner demonstrates just what is wrong with the site and it's moderation.

You know this post my be the proof that WW was bad. 1. You didn't insult anyone 2. You actual made an argument. Thanks for adding something to the conversation.
As to your argument, I honestly got through half StatusNil's post before shutting it down. I have to read more to make an appropriate comment. You though, in this post, imply that the mods should change to suit your particular needs. I'm going to have to ask for evidence for change over everyone else.

 

[Dr. Thrax]

Very well, but, you don't get the right to call it "Not a powertrip" when you response to the fact you've broken what the users voted on, and what was previous promised by the current staff is "Too bad if you don't like it".

Well.. sorry to say it, but too bad.
The mods and CM are the only ones "running" this place now, with Defy seemingly sitting on their thumbs and twiddling them. The shitty thing about making promises while running a place is that things change and sometimes promises have to be broken. That doesn't necessarily mean that they like having to break a promise, but sometimes it has to be done. And no matter what the mod team did - aside from just doing nothing - people would be crying "Power trip!" "Mod takeover!"

Making the Wild West lawless and utterly separated from all but 3 of the site's rules - one of which was introduced after the infamous Wynncident - was a mistake. I'd have been all for a relaxed moderation forum where people could have their image threads and whatnot that wasn't made to strictly adhere to the CoC but still had rules, but the WW was poorly executed and it allowed people to harass other users without reprisal, and they did.

Y'all were given a thing and abused it, so now you have no thing.

 

[Elvis Starburst]

Very well, but, you don't get the right to call it "Not a powertrip" when you response to the fact you've broken what the users voted on, and what was previous promised by the current staff is "Too bad if you don't like it".

Well.. sorry to say it, but too bad.
The mods and CM are the only ones "running" this place now, with Defy seemingly sitting on their thumbs and twiddling them. The shitty thing about making promises while running a place is that things change and sometimes promises have to be broken. That doesn't necessarily mean that they like having to break a promise, but sometimes it has to be done. And no matter what the mod team did - aside from just doing nothing - people would be crying "Power trip!" "Mod takeover!"

Making the Wild West lawless and utterly separated from all but 3 of the site's rules - one of which was introduced after the infamous Wynncident - was a mistake. I'd have been all for a relaxed moderation forum where people could have their image threads and whatnot that wasn't made to strictly adhere to the CoC but still had rules, but the WW was poorly executed and it allowed people to harass other users without reprisal, and they did.

Y'all were given a thing and abused it, so now you have no thing.

Can I get an amen? Not the mention the fact that...

A. [Snip]
B. It's not what the original staff of the site implemented.
C. [Snip]
D. [Snip]

... several times it's been noted that the mods or staff did not ask for the WW to be implemented, it was a 'higher power' as Noe describes it that put the WW in place. The mods didn't ask for it, so I think they can do whatever they want with it since they're essentially the ones in charge now

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

Very well, but, you don't get the right to call it "Not a powertrip" when you response to the fact you've broken what the users voted on, and what was previous promised by the current staff is "Too bad if you don't like it".

Well.. sorry to say it, but too bad.
The mods and CM are the only ones "running" this place now, with Defy seemingly sitting on their thumbs and twiddling them. The shitty thing about making promises while running a place is that things change and sometimes promises have to be broken. That doesn't necessarily mean that they like having to break a promise, but sometimes it has to be done. And no matter what the mod team did - aside from just doing nothing - people would be crying "Power trip!" "Mod takeover!"

Making the Wild West lawless and utterly separated from all but 3 of the site's rules - one of which was introduced after the infamous Wynncident - was a mistake. I'd have been all for a relaxed moderation forum where people could have their image threads and whatnot that wasn't made to strictly adhere to the CoC but still had rules, but the WW was poorly executed and it allowed people to harass other users without reprisal, and they did.

Y'all were given a thing and abused it, so now you have no thing.

And that is mic drop! Mods, you can go ahead and close down the thread, this was all that needed to be said, the Wild West is dead so it couldn't spread...bread.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Saying how you feel is different than threats and harassment.
"I like pie" is not the same as "I'll fucking kill anyone who doesn't like pie!" or "I hate MLP" is different that "Fucking pony fag cucks, kill yourself!"
They are not the same.

Some people don't know how to post without sounding like a 5-year-old. But these rules you guys are so in love with actually aren't gonna change that. The users themselves need to let the immature poster know that that kind of behavior isn't going to fly. As to harassment, I KNOW harassment. Actual harassment is dogging a user from one topic to the next, not contributing anything and just wanting to flame the other user. I've had extensive experience with this. I've actually had extensive experience with everything you people are talking about and then some.

The 'free speech' forum just turned into a bunch of assholes threatening and harassing each other,

No it didn't. I've been posting in WW a long time, and in my entire time there, I have never once been harassed. Not even slightly. I don't even think I was insulted. Furthermore, I've posted a lot of serious threads there and I never once got one of those "kill yourself" kind of responses. And I was one of the more abrasive posters! That leaves one of two possibilities.

1. Everyone is afraid of me.

or

2. There actually wasn't a problem at all and people here are too sensitive.

And no one is saying you aren't free to say whatever you want. You fully 100%, just has to be within the guidelines of the website, or not. If not, face the consequences, and if you can't deal with said consequences then maybe this isn't the website to post on.
No one has taken away your freedom to say whatever you like, it just has consequences like it does in every aspect of real life.

I hope you realize how ridiculous this sounds. "Oh, you're still totally free to say what you like. Just, you know, you'll get shot by the Escapist Gestapo if you do." That's not free speech. And no, I'm not arguing that Escapist has to allow us to say whatever we want. In fact, they have every right to just ban everyone for even the slightest thing. But I don't think that exactly makes for the best forum environment, do you?

So now I ask you the same questions I asked Gethsemani.

If some really can't learn to ignore a post, are they people who are really worth banishing the entire WW for? When does the responsibilities of the site team end and the responsibilities of the user begin? When is it no longer the site's fault concerning content that is posted? Is it really too unreasonable to expect a certain level of maturity out of our posters? Do we really need to be everybody's babysitter whenever others call them a mean name?

 

[Elvis Starburst]

No it didn't. I've been posting in WW a long time, and in my entire time there, I have never once been harassed. Not even slightly. I don't even think I was insulted. Furthermore, I've posted a lot of serious threads there and I never once got one of those "kill yourself" kind of responses. And I was one of the more abrasive posters! That leaves one of two possibilities.

1. Everyone is afraid of me.

or

2. There actually wasn't a problem at all and people here are too sensitive.

Or #3. It just never happened to you specifically, and you didn't enter the threads where the problem was obvious

 

[Baffle]

Actual harassment is dogging a user from one topic to the next, not contributing anything and just wanting to flame the other user.

I'm pretty sure just one instance on non-consensual dogging is harassment.

 

[RaikuFA]

StatusNil getting a warning for stating his opinion in a civil manner demonstrates just what is wrong with the site and it's moderation.

You know this post my be the proof that WW was bad. 1. You didn't insult anyone 2. You actual made an argument. Thanks for adding something to the conversation.
As to your argument, I honestly got through half StatusNil's post before shutting it down. I have to read more to make an appropriate comment. You though, in this post, imply that the mods should change to suit your particular needs. I'm going to have to ask for evidence for change over everyone else.

The problem some have with it though is if it were some other members saying the exact same thing there'd be no consequences for them.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

It just never happened to you specifically, and you didn't enter the threads where the problem was obvious

And where was the problem obvious?

I'm pretty sure just one instance on non-consensual dogging is harassment.

So that's it then, huh? One mean name and off with their heads?

 

[Dr. Thrax]

If some really can't learn to ignore a post, are they people who are really worth banishing the entire WW for?

Who says the WW was shut down because people can't "learn to ignore" posts?

When does the responsibilities of the site team end and the responsibilities of the user begin?

A user's responsibilities is to follow the rules. The responsibility of the site team is to oversee the users and make decisions regarding the forum's structure and function. That's it.

When is it no longer the site's fault concerning content that is posted?

When the site explicitly enables certain content to be posted, it's the site's fault. WW explicitly had no rules, which meant that behavior that was absolutely unacceptable outside of WW was acceptable there.

Is it really too unreasonable to expect a certain level of maturity out of our posters?

Apparently, yes. Otherwise WW would still exist.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

If some really can't learn to ignore a post, are they people who are really worth banishing the entire WW for?

Counter point, are the people who were posting posts while claiming they should be ignored worth keeping the WW open for? Do we just cede the Wild West as a shitpost hellhole because some users cry 'but mah freedomz!' whenever they're feet at held to the rules?

When does the responsibilities of the site team end and the responsibilities of the user begin?

Right around the time harassment threads pop up apparently. The mods had 2 choices, either start banning users in the WW for WW post, or close the WW down. If you ask me you Wild Westers got off easy.

When is it no longer the site's fault concerning content that is posted?

What content, when? If the site posts an article, sure they're responsible for that article. If a User posts something, that user is responsible for that post, but the Site has the right to discipline the User because its their website, their rules. The Escapist isn't a constitutional right, its a choice. You are choosing to be here, and part of being here is following the rules of here. You are free to go elsewhere if you want.

Is it really too unreasonable to expect a certain level of maturity out of our posters? Do we really need to be everybody's babysitter whenever others call them a mean name?

The rules are the rules. And the Wild West proved that yes, its too unreasonable to expect maturity from posters. When given a cookie, the mouse pissed everywhere and threatened people.
So now the mouse gets no cookie. The wild west had its shot, it fucked it, and now its gone. The Wild west is responsible for the wild west closure. The mods didn't make anyone post there, didn't force harassment and bullying, didn't force threats and horseshit, it was the users, the unreasonably immature users.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Who says the WW was shut down because people can't "learn to ignore" posts?

A user's responsibilities is to follow the rules. The responsibility of the site team is to oversee the users and make decisions regarding the forum's structure and function. That's it.

When the site explicitly enables certain content to be posted, it's the site's fault. WW explicitly had no rules, which meant that behavior that was absolutely unacceptable outside of WW was acceptable there.

Apparently, yes. Otherwise WW would still exist.

Counter point, are the people who were posting posts while claiming they should be ignored worth keeping the WW open for? Do we just cede the Wild West as a shitpost hellhole because some users cry 'but mah freedomz!' whenever they're feet at held to the rules?

Right around the time harassment threads pop up apparently. The mods had 2 choices, either start banning users in the WW for WW post, or close the WW down. If you ask me you Wild Westers got off easy.

What content, when? If the site posts an article, sure they're responsible for that article. If a User posts something, that user is responsible for that post, but the Site has the right to discipline the User because its their website, their rules. The Escapist isn't a constitutional right, its a choice. You are choosing to be here, and part of being here is following the rules of here. You are free to go elsewhere if you want.

The rules are the rules. And the Wild West proved that yes, its too unreasonable to expect maturity from posters. When given a cookie, the mouse pissed everywhere and threatened people.
So now the mouse gets no cookie. The wild west had its shot, it fucked it, and now its gone. The Wild west is responsible for the wild west closure. The mods didn't make anyone post there, didn't force harassment and bullying, didn't force threats and horseshit, it was the users, the unreasonably immature users.

You know what, I don't think I can proceed further here because there's apparently a completely unfixable perception that the WW was some awful awful place where only pedophiles and nazis post. Where just because someone was mean to them once, that automatically makes the entirety of WW unsalvageable.

I'm just gonna say this though. If it's not here, where should one go if they want to post somewhere without having to worry about a ton of rules? And don't say 4chan. 4chan sucks ass. Do we have to go to the deepweb now just to have some true free speech? I mean, I'd make my own forum, but as I already discussed, I can't do that at all at the moment. So now, the people who genuinely liked the WW are stuck.

And it's not like I can't follow the site rules. It's not like they're completely and totally unreasonable. The problem is that there is no choice whatsoever now. You all say that's a good thing, but if that's true then maybe I don't really belong here anymore...

 

[Dr. Thrax]

You know what, I don't think I can proceed further here because there's apparently a completely unfixable perception that the WW was some awful awful place where only pedophiles and nazis post. Where just because someone was mean to them once, that automatically makes the entirety of WW unsalvageable.

You're literally the only one saying this.
EDIT: While I won't deny there were plenty of other threads that weren't utter shitshows, this is a case of a few bad apples spoiling the entire batch.

I'm just gonna say this though. If it's not here, where should one go if they want to post somewhere without having to worry about a ton of rules? And don't say 4chan. 4chan sucks ass.

Go to 4chan.

And it's not like I can't follow the site rules. It's not like they're completely and totally unreasonable. The problem is that there is no choice anymore. You all say that's a good thing, but if that's true then maybe I don't really belong here anymore...

... "There is no choice anymore"???
Before the WW was introduced there was no "choice". Rules are not optional unless there are no rules.
Maybe the mods will re-make the WW into something that's got relaxed moderation instead of the unmoderated landscape it was. Maybe not. If following the damn rules is too much for you then maybe you really don't belong here.